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Dragon Age 4 should drop the party


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#1
Astylith

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Hey guys,

 

Whether you like DA:I combat or not, it is quite apparent that Bioware does not consider tactical party RPG's to be financially feasible for this generation of hardware. Right now, most people will have to agree that the combat system in DA:I is 'acceptable' at best. It doesn't have quite the weight of Dark Souls combat or the accuracy/timing of Skyrim combat. A large reason the combat is like this is because it allows for some degree of tactical control utilizing all your party members. 

 

To me, the next logical step which could actually improve the combat greatly, is removing party members (who can be controlled manually) from the equation. I know, Bioware games usually lean heavily on party banters and such - that's why I think it might still be feasible to have perhaps one non controllable NPC with you in the next DA games. It would be a heckuva lot easier to make responsive, skill based combat when Bioware only has to consider one or two party members in all.

 

The Mass Effect series has the benefit of FPS mechanics which invoke skill. The Dragon Age series used to have it's (old school) tactical mechanics - which have since then been stripped away. I'm trying to form a concept in my head on how this will evolve over their next games. Again, I'm not trying to say it's inherently bad they they aimed for more action oriented combat, I just think they should go the full mile.

 

What do you guys think? 

 

EDIT: added my second post (which is on the first page) here because people didn't notice it

 

I had a lot of fun reading through the comments and it seems clear that the vast majority of you guys/gals see party based combat as something integral to the Bioware/DA experience, and that's fine. The lack of my own opinion in the OP was intentional because I didn't want to completely derail the thread from the start.

 

Personally I'm a huge fan of party based RPG's such as the older Infinity Engine games and DA:O was a fine addition to that list. Action RPG's like Skyrim (I agree, it's combat is the worst part of it even though I've been a fan of the series FPS like controls since Daggerfall) and Dark Souls also rank highly on my 'best of' lists. Dragon Age Inquisition however doesn't have a combat system that I can thoroughly enjoy, it doesn't give me the feeling that I'm actually in control of my party members. The tactical camera usually doesn't zoom out enough to give a full overview of the battle which forces me to use the 'action view', which I wouldn't really mind if the combat was more visceral and had more weight to it. 

 

Be mindful everyone, I'm -only- talking about the combat here (as in the opening post). I know combat in Bioware games isn't something everyone thinks is important, that's fine. However, a lot of people, myself included, really like the tactical part of RPG's and probably feel that Bioware might not be making those type of games in the future. Which is fine to me as long as they manage to make the more action oriented combat (this meaning manually placing your attacks by doing button presses in contrast to auto attacking and queuing commands) feel more responsive and accurate like in Dark Souls. I felt like the reason that hadn't been done in DA:I is because Bioware sticked to having a party - I wasn't aware on how Dragon's Dogma was doing this the right way. Hence my opening post.

 

As you see I'm not really in favor of either action or tactical combat. I just hope they manage to create a more interesting combat system in the next installment of the DA franchise.


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#2
Dreamer

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I think you might be on to something, but a game without party members would need some way of reconciling what brings many of us to BioWare: character-driven story.



#3
Grondoth

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Sure, let's take the thing Bioware's best at out of their games and turn them into the thing that bioware's worst at; careful balance and thoughtful combat mechanics. This will go well.


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#4
Tsunami Chef

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Fuckkkk nooooooooooooo.


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#5
Chaos17

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Hey guys,

 

Whether you like DA:I combat or not, it is quite apparent that Bioware does not consider tactical party RPG's to be financially feasible for this generation of hardware. Right now, most people will have to agree that the combat system in DA:I is 'acceptable' at best. It doesn't have quite the weight of Dark Souls combat or the accuracy/timing of Skyrim combat. A large reason the combat is like this is because it allows for some degree of tactical control utilizing all your party members. 

 

To me, the next logical step which could actually improve the combat greatly, is removing party members (who can be controlled manually) from the equation. I know, Bioware games usually lean heavily on party banters and such - that's why I think it might still be feasible to have perhaps one non controllable NPC with you in the next DA games. It would be a heckuva lot easier to make responsive, skill based combat when Bioware only has to consider one or two party members in all.

 

The Mass Effect series has the benefit of FPS mechanics which invoke skill. The Dragon Age series used to have it's (old school) tactical mechanics - which have since then been stripped away. I'm trying to form a concept in my head on how this will evolve over their next games. Again, I'm not trying to say it's inherently bad they they aimed for more action oriented combat, I just think they should go the full mile.

 

What do you guys think? 

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#6
Guest_starlitegirl_*

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Sure, let's take the thing Bioware's best at out of their games and turn them into the thing that bioware's worst at; careful balance and thoughtful combat mechanics. This will go well.

 

They were best at it. In case you haven't noticed, the ability to control you party or to give them tactics pretty much sucks in this game. It's the worst of ALL their games that I've played which would be the ME series and DA series. Clearly they can't be bothered or are moving toward more action and less tactics for mainstream. Why even bother pretending anymore? DAO I felt gave me the most control over tactics. We should at the very least be able to set up tactics like we did then. Preferred/enabled/disable doesn't count. This is the barest tactic system I've ever seen.

 

Instead of getting rid of it they need to improve it. Right now, it sucks.


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#7
Dreamer

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They were best at it. In case you haven't noticed, the ability to control you party or to give them tactics pretty much sucks in this game. It's the worst of ALL their games that I've played which would be the ME series and DA series. Clearly they can't be bothered or are moving toward more action and less tactics for mainstream. Why even bother pretending anymore? DAO I felt gave me the most control over tactics. We should at the very least be able to set up tactics like we did then. Preferred/enabled/disable doesn't count. This is the barest tactic system I've ever seen.

 

Why? Because although they demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the original Dragon Age audience, they still want their money.


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#8
Tsunami Chef

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Why? Because although they demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the original Dragon Age audience, they still want their money.

God Dragon Age Origins fanboys are the most easily offended people on earth...


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#9
Guest_starlitegirl_*

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Why? Because although they demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the original Dragon Age audience, they still want their money.

 

No. Because tactics don't work except the barest minimum. My party just acts like crappy AI. I don't give a rat's butt about whatever audience you think I am from. I simply want AI that isn't stupid. AI in this game is kind of stupid. No, it's incredibly stupid. I would like it to behave like relatively good AI. Of course, I'm spoiled by Dragon's Dogma where the AI there was superior to anything currently on the market. It was trainable. It was smart enough to know what to do and when to do it. It behaved like actual intelligent beings rather than dumb game AI which is what goes on here. What happens here is they use whatever abilities they have and then cycle back through them once they are cooled down. Anyone can do that. It's poor design. In DD they would choose the right tactics. In DAO you could set up tactics so that they would respond in certain ways making them appear relatively intelligent. This? Horrible.

 

Tsunami Chef - not even close to a fanboy. I just know good AI from crappy AI. This is crappy AI - some of the worst I've seen in years.

 

Apologies to Dreamer for my rant at you! Didn't realize that was sarcasm and you agreed. I am awful at getting sarcasm online. Always mistake it for something else. My bad.


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#10
Dreamer

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God Dragon Age Origins fanboys are the most easily offended people on earth...

 

I didn't enjoy Origins. Jokes on you, chef.

 

 

No. Because tactics don't work except the barest minimum. My party just acts like crappy AI. I don't give a rat's butt about whatever audience you think I am from. I simply want AI that isn't stupid. AI in this game is kind of stupid. No, it's incredibly stupid. I would like it to behave like relatively good AI. Of course, I'm spoiled by Dragon's Dogma where the AI there was superior to anything currently on the market. It was trainable. It was smart enough to know what to do and when to do it. It behaved like actual intelligent beings rather than dumb game AI which is what goes on here. What happens here is they use whatever abilities they have and then cycle back through them once they are cooled down. Anyone can do that. It's poor design. In DD they would choose the right tactics. In DAO you could set up tactics so that they would respond in certain ways making them appear relatively intelligent. This? Horrible.

 

 

Easy, tiger. I agree with you. Re-read my post. Perhaps it wasn't clear, but I am suggesting that BioWare no longer cares about Origin fans; they're interested in a wider crowd, as you suggest, but they can also keep the old fans around by pandering to them with things like "party management"--however flimsy and unsupported it gets with each new iteration of the franchise.


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#11
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What do you guys think? 

 

No.



#12
Guest_starlitegirl_*

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I didn't enjoy Origins. Jokes on you, chef.

 

 

Easy, tiger. I agree with you. Re-read my post. Perhaps it wasn't clear, but I am suggesting that BioWare no longer cares about Origin fans; they're interested in a wider crowd, as you suggest, but they can also keep the old fans around by pandering to them with things like "party management"--however flimsy and unsupported it gets with each new iteration of the franchise.

 

Ooops. I missed that entirely. Yes, they've gone mainstream. I don't care about that except now we have trash AI along with a whole lot of mainstream stupid added in as well. Sorry I missed the sarcasm. I'm never good at picking up on that sort of thing in a forum.



#13
shubnabub

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God Dragon Age Origins fanboys are the most easily offended people on earth...

We're not easily offended, we are in a perpetual state of being offended because we are constantly told our needs matter then handed console oriented CoD/Uncharted/AssCreed player oriented games. Get it right. :D


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#14
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No. Because tactics don't work except the barest minimum. My party just acts like crappy AI. I don't give a rat's butt about whatever audience you think I am from. I simply want AI that isn't stupid. AI in this game is kind of stupid. No, it's incredibly stupid. I would like it to behave like relatively good AI. Of course, I'm spoiled by Dragon's Dogma where the AI there was superior to anything currently on the market. It was trainable. It was smart enough to know what to do and when to do it. It behaved like actual intelligent beings rather than dumb game AI which is what goes on here. What happens here is they use whatever abilities they have and then cycle back through them once they are cooled down. Anyone can do that. It's poor design. In DD they would choose the right tactics. In DAO you could set up tactics so that they would respond in certain ways making them appear relatively intelligent. This? Horrible.

 

Tsunami Chef - not even close to a fanboy. I just know good AI from crappy AI. This is crappy AI - some of the worst I've seen in years.

 

This, all of it. DD was the best fantasy RPG I've ever played, and the combat; hands down best combat in a fantasy game ever.


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#15
GithCheater

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No ... definitely no.  I try to avoid AI and control all characters by myself.  I suggest you turn off the AI as well, or lower the difficulty if you refuse to micromanage your party.


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#16
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This, all of it. DD was the best fantasy RPG I've ever played, and the combat; hands down best combat in a fantasy game ever.

 

ALL games should aspire to this. I love my pawns. I cannot get rid of my X360 for the love of my pawns! They were amazing! They made that game superior to any game with companions to the degree that any game with companions or followers looks like really bad AI.


Also, DD combat? Most fun ever! I loved climbing, running, double jumps! I loved having so much amazing control, being able to swap weapons mid combat, and knowing my pawns were kicking butt because I taught them well. So. Much. Fun.


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#17
SongstressKitsune

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Hahahahaha.

 

No.


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#18
Namea

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Sooo...you want Skyrim? 

No.

Don't get me wrong, I like skyrim but it's...it's my dumb game. 

You get what I mean? Skyrim is that game I go to play when I'm bored but tired or lazy and don't want to think. It takes no thought because there's no story to it (I mean there is but it's so background that you can do everything BUT the story quests and have the same experience as someone who does them.) Skyrim is full of flat characters with no personality whatsoever. Any companion may as well be any other, any generic shop keeper is the exact same as any other (Not helped by the fact that there's like a total of 10 voice actors for hundreds of characters.)

 

Not to mention, skyrim's UI and combat on PC is ridiculous. There's a reason that people have improved the UI in a HUGE mod. The reason is that it sucks. 

 

So no.

 

Bioware makes great games because the story is rich and immersive, the characters are three dimensional and realistic. You can connect with them almost like a real person because of who they are. Banter adds to this, being able to run around with a full party adds to this. 

 

Honestly? I've NEVER connected to a skyrim character. They have no personality whatsoever and that's NOT what I want in the next dragon age game.


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#19
Dakota Strider

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Or perhaps Bioware goes back to a more successful system, the one they used in DAO.  If they would have used DAO combat, classes, and keyboard/mouse movement in DAI, the game would have been far more enjoyable.


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#20
Namea

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ALL games should aspire to this. I love my pawns. I cannot get rid of my X360 for the love of my pawns! They were amazing! They made that game superior to any game with companions to the degree that any game with companions or followers looks like really bad AI.

Also, DD combat? Most fun ever! I loved climbing, running, double jumps! I loved having so much amazing control, being able to swap weapons mid combat, and knowing my pawns were kicking butt because I taught them well. So. Much. Fun.

 

I agree. <3 (You should totally join the Dragon's Dogma pawn sharing thread on GameFAQs) The story in DD is original although like Skyrim it's a background thing (Which sucks. I'd love a more rich and involved story with the kind of gameplay that DD has.) The gameplay however is damn near flawless. I LOVE the combat system, I love the way you can have a single player experience and yet still a community experience through pawn-sharing. And did I mention how damn amazing their character creator is? HOLY CRAP THE OPTIONS!



#21
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I agree. <3 (You should totally join the Dragon's Dogma pawn sharing thread on GameFAQs) The story in DD is original although like Skyrim it's a background thing (Which sucks. I'd love a more rich and involved story with the kind of gameplay that DD has.) The gameplay however is damn near flawless. I LOVE the combat system, I love the way you can have a single player experience and yet still a community experience through pawn-sharing. And did I mention how damn amazing their character creator is? HOLY CRAP THE OPTIONS!

 

I did for a bit back in the summer when I was playing. Don't play DD much anymore but I did do the rentals. It really was a great game.



#22
ironhorse384

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I like the party system, so I wouldn't be in favor of losing it, in fact, I'd rather see an increase to six party members but that's just me.


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#23
Nefla

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Hell no. I like reflex based combat as much as the next person, but story and characters are the reason I play a game, not combat.


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#24
mLIQUID

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Simple statement on this one.... Watch.... ME..... Play!!! EPIC is going right over your head and between your legs. Just cause it isn't easy doesn't mean it isn't good or broken. GIT SUM



#25
Blue_Shayde

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Dear lord, no. They've butchered the Dragon Age series enough. If DA4 goes that far, I'll consider Bioware officially dead.


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