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Dragon Age 4 should drop the party


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#126
Sylvius the Mad

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Interestingly enough, I'm almost the complete opposite. I love more action oriented games, and would hotel at the loss of a party. I agree with everyone saying to look at dragon's dogma instead of skyrim for party combat purposes. The parks were the best part of that game. Imagine having a party that learned how to deal with enemies, do you never had to issue an order because they already knew the best way to handle it. It's amazing, and I recommend those that haven't played it, please do.

This design assumes a great many things about the player, and those assumptions are not universally true.

There is no "best way" to deal with an encounter. The player should be able to choose how his party approaches an encounter, without being forced into some optimal approach by a gimmicky encounter design. I don't think combat encounters should be designed as a challenge for the player. They should be designed as a challenge for the characters. If I choose the tactics I think my character would choose, he should then succeed or fail based on the merits of those tactics. But if the encounter is designed as a challenge for the player, or has a specific gimmick necessary to defeat it, then those roleplayed tactics are less likely to be effective.

I also prefer that for any actual challenge posed to the player, that challenge be entirely mental. Never should my ability to press buttons at a specific rate be relevant.
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#127
errantknight

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I should probably have mentioned my biases in my previous post. I don't much care for action rpgs. If I play one, it's inspite of the fact and for another reason. ie. Divinity2:The Dragon Knight saga which was enough fun to make it worth my while. Skyrim, with it's terrible controls, loose story and sick making camera was not, and I put it aside fairly quickly. There's a reason that I play Bioware games almost exclusively and I'd hate to see them lose what makes them virtually unique.


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#128
Fast Jimmy

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I should probably have mentioned my biases in my previous post. I don't much care for action rpgs. If I play one, it's inspite of the fact and for another reason. ie. Divinity2:The Dragon Knight saga which was enough fun to make it worth my while. Skyrim, with it's terrible controls, loose story and sick making camera was not, and I put it aside fairly quickly. There's a reason that I play Bioware games almost exclusively and I'd hate to see them lose what makes them virtually unique.


I think the problem is there is a somewhat valid argument that Bioware has ALREADY lost them. DA:I's use of action-based skills, it's neutered party tactics and it's poor implementation of the tactical cam - the very method of allowing more tactical party gameplay - shows some pretty clear design decisions. And while such things may be patched out, updated or changed in the future, the fact that the the team sent the game out like this and it didn't raise any immediate huge flags shows where the team's focus is on: the more action-based, single character experience.

If that's where Bioware is wanting to head (and from the progression seen in nearly every step of the series since DA:O, it seems like that is the case), that's fine. What they need to do is REALIZE their focus isn't on delivering a party-based, tactical experience and instead that it revolves around a Mass Effect model, where controlling a single character directly and having other squad mates/companions being support and AI controlled is the model they enjoy developing for.

The move in their design is not the problem - it is their somewhat mixed messaging where they don't realize they are sending the wrong message (mostly because they believe they ARE delivering great, party-based tactical combat) that the problem arises.
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#129
Danoniero

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Whoever calls Inquisition RPG never played any really, whoever hopes next Dragon Age won't be a slasher will be dissapointed.



#130
errantknight

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I think they did make a decision to go the action route, hence DA2 (shudder), but they also got the message that was entirely unacceptable to the players who signed onto the series because of all that was Origins. Here, they clearly tried to bring back enough of what we loved there to stiflle dissent while still keeping the action fans who preferred DA2 combat.

 

They've creatind a real problem for themselves in having 2 games which were entirely different in terms of combat. Now instead of having a unified fan base, they have 3 groups--those to whom Origins was awesome and only needed some tweaks, those who enjoyed the action focus of DA2 and found Origins dull in comparison, and those who enjoyed both styles. Sadly for them, the third group is both the smallest and quietest.

 

Here, they tried to make everyone happy, and while it's better in all ways than DA2, and for me, a very enjoyable game overall, the combat is basically a middle ground that truly pleases neither the second or first group. Still, they did listen to complaints and the changes that need to be made to make the next game better for those who enjoy tactical party-based combat aren't so huge that they can't be done without losing the action gamers.

 

It doesn't have to be as slow as origins, it just needs to slow down slightly to a midpoint between this and origins. The tacticall/isometric problem is due to the modelling choice of wanting visible ceilings and realistic landscape. I don't know what the solution is there, but I believe one can be found. Landscape sholdn't trump gameplay.

 

Bringing back full tactics as in Origins doesn't hurt the action crowd, nor does having the kind of free selection of armor styles with a wealth of style choices. If they don't want to pay attention to that, they don't have to. The lack of real armor choice was annoying and, to me, inexplicable. If they aren't going to let us mod, then they really have to stop forcing one design style on us. Let us gear the way we did in Origins, both ourselves and our companions. And for the love of god, if the clothing looks like something no game or culture has done before, that's probably because it's a really unfortunate look. Kudos to the crafting system and viable crafted armor though!

 

The 'unrealistic' elements to mage and archer combat seems to be a lingering element of the 'when you push a button, something awesome happens' mindset of DA2, and that just plain needs to go away. Magic and archery don't need to feel like you're shooting guns. If people want to play games with guns, they'll go do that. It doesn't need to be in a medieval setting. There's simply nothing less immersive than a machine gun bow or mages pointlessly twirling and slamming their staffs into the ground or shooting an ice bazooka. They need to let magic be magic and archery be archery.

 

Bigger and faster isn't always better, sometimes it's just silly and distracting. I'm not in the moment at all anymore when a character does something 'wtf is that?'

 

They did a good thing by having an effects slider, though. I'm not sure who wants effects to be so intrusive that you can't even see combat, but it's sure not me.

 

Anyway, thay aren't that far away, they just have to stop trying to throw Origins away And find ways to have all that Origins offered, tweaked to increase the enjoyment of the action crowd.

 

This whole thing is an object lesson in trying to increase market share. Sometimes massive changes create more trouble than just perfecting the original and lleave you trying to please 2 diametrically opposed groups.


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#131
Maverick827

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whoever hopes next Dragon Age won't be a slasher will be dissapointed.

A Nightmare on Elf Street
The Rivain Great Axe Massacre
The Hinterlands Have Eyes
I Know What You Did Last Summerday
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#132
errantknight

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A Nightmare on Elf Street
The Rivain Great Axe Massacre
The Hinterlands Have Eyes
I Know What You Did Last Summerday

LOLOL! Well done!



#133
Grieving Natashina

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I could care less what Skyrim did/does.  I knew the story was thin, and I knew that the companion would be just some person.  I hate the first person POV that is in most TES games.  I've seen it, I've watched my husband played it.  I tried it and it sucked for me.  Great for those that enjoy the game, I thought it was awful.  The combat was clunky, the graphics are way too brown, and most of the story is in books all over the place.  The companion is still buggy (she'll just vanish for no good reason and it still plagues the game as of 2 months ago, and only a reload of an older save fixes it) and she had no personality of her own.

 

No, I bought Dragon Age.  I like BioWare games, and one of their biggest draws for me has always been the party system in most of their games.  I would rather have an interesting companion with a good fantasy story I don't have to read in scattered books just to understand.  I know it's so popular to hate on EA/BioWare, which I guess hating everything if it isn't 100% perfect is the "correct" thing to do.  

 

Well, it seems like some folks decidde that the bugs that plagued Skyrim, Oblivion, Dragon Age, freaking Baldur's Gate just never happened.   That none of those games have got varying degrees of bad bugs to this day.  Right.

 

And for those that keep going, "Oh, you're not a real RPG fan because you like Inquisition," I'm going to take a page from the Book of Gaider:

 

If being a real or true RPG fan means a true jerk to everyone that disagrees with me, to the company that made the game, then I'm glad I guess I'm not one.


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#134
Kel Eligor

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Reading this thread is very strange.

 

A lot of people complain about the lack of depth to the combat system of Inquisition over Origins, and feel that the series has been slowly progressing towards more flash, rather than quality. You would think the controls and fluidity of the Dark Souls series would be inspiring, especially since those games have a dark, gritty-fantasy vibe like people want in Dragon Age but all I'm seeing is people threatening to rage-quit Bioware if they went that route.

 

I'm not suggesting Dragon Age should be anywhere NEAR as hard as Dark Souls, obviously, but it shows that there is a way to make action games controlled and strategic - which many people bring up as being the essence of Origins combat. Stats customization and all... so what gives? 

 

I also think that if Bioware focused on making the player experience the best it could be that it would solve a lot of problems. Mass Effect had a fantastic formula that allowed for skill and management. 



#135
Edbi

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If I could I would bring all army with me like in Mount and Blade :) I still didnt finish the game so I hope I will encounter some bigger battle than that with SPOILER ALERT wardens SPOILER ALERT

 

so I like to have atleast 4 party members if I could I would have them all with me :) you know they would more speak with each other and argue and......



#136
errantknight

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I could care less what Skyrim did/does.  I knew the story was thin, and I knew that the companion would be just some person.  I hate the first person POV that is in most TES games.  I've seen it, I've watched my husband played it.  I tried it and it sucked for me.  Great for those that enjoy the game, I thought it was awful.  The combat was clunky, the graphics are way too brown, and most of the story is in books all over the place.  The companion is still buggy (she'll just vanish for no good reason and it still plagues the game as of 2 months ago, and only a reload of an older save fixes it) and she had no personality of her own.

 

No, I bought Dragon Age.  I like BioWare games, and one of their biggest draws for me has always been the party system in most of their games.  I would rather have an interesting companion with a good fantasy story I don't have to read in scattered books just to understand.  I know it's so popular to hate on EA/BioWare, which I guess hating everything if it isn't 100% perfect is the "correct" thing to do.  

 

Well, it seems like some folks decidde that the bugs that plagued Skyrim, Oblivion, Dragon Age, freaking Baldur's Gate just never happened.   That none of those games have got varying degrees of bad bugs to this day.  Right.

 

And for those that keep going, "Oh, you're not a real RPG fan because you like Inquisition," I'm going to take a page from the Book of Gaider:

 

If being a real or true RPG fan means a true jerk to everyone that disagrees with me, to the company that made the game, then I'm glad I guess I'm not one.

It's not an either/or thing. I love this game. I enjoyed the story, the companion interactions and everything about it. The combat is MUCH improved from DA2. I do, however, think that combat can be improved further, bringing back some elements which have been lost, without completely alienating the action fans who were brought in with DA2.



#137
AlanC9

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I think the problem is there is a somewhat valid argument that Bioware has ALREADY lost them. DA:I's use of action-based skills, it's neutered party tactics and it's poor implementation of the tactical cam - the very method of allowing more tactical party gameplay - shows some pretty clear design decisions. And while such things may be patched out, updated or changed in the future, the fact that the the team sent the game out like this and it didn't raise any immediate huge flags shows where the team's focus is on: the more action-based, single character experience.


It seems a bit strange to put party tactics in that list. I thought the value of Tactics in DA:O and especially DA2 was that they let me play the games as if they were action games. So instead of assigning everybody's actions I could just wade in there with my PC and blast away. If I wanted a more BG2-ish experience I would turn Tactics off.
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#138
Sylvius the Mad

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Reading this thread is very strange.

A lot of people complain about the lack of depth to the combat system of Inquisition over Origins, and feel that the series has been slowly progressing towards more flash, rather than quality. You would think the controls and fluidity of the Dark Souls series would be inspiring, especially since those games have a dark, gritty-fantasy vibe like people want in Dragon Age but all I'm seeing is people threatening to rage-quit Bioware if they went that route.

I'm not suggesting Dragon Age should be anywhere NEAR as hard as Dark Souls, obviously, but it shows that there is a way to make action games controlled and strategic - which many people bring up as being the essence of Origins combat. Stats customization and all... so what gives?

That it's action combat.

I paused to aim in ME. Nearly every shot. I modded New Vegas so I could use VATS for every shot. I think Skyrim would have been vastly better if it had had VATS. I play every DAI encounter using the Tac Cam, pausing every second.

If I were playing a plotless all-combat dungeon crawler, I would rather it had turn-based combat rather than action combat.

Action combat is unacceptable.

#139
Grieving Natashina

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It's not an either/or thing. I love this game. I enjoyed the story, the companion interactions and everything about it. The combat is MUCH improved from DA2. I do, however, think that combat can be improved further, bringing back some elements which have been lost, without completely alienating the action fans who were brought in with DA2.

It is for a lot of people.  I'm not one of them, but that's a very common mentality all over the forums right now.  If anything, I'm sick and tired of the "Them vs Us" that has taken over the forums. I even read just earlier in this very thread on this page that if you liked Inquisition, you're not a real RPG fan.  I was also addressing the point of the OP, which was to ditch a party and go with a more "Skyrim" route.  

 

It's also gotten old to read people beating the Skyrim horse into the ground in general. "Skyrim is the best!" "Screw you fanboy, Skyrim is the worst!" "Skyrim sold 20 million copies, so that's what BioWare should do."  "BioWare is trying to rip off Skyrim, and it's going to kill the series."  And on, and on, and on.   Good for Skyrim, but I'm burned out.

 

Skyrim has some good ideas and some fun ideas too.  However, out of all the ideas to take from Skyrim, their companion system is not one of them.

 

I'm also not arguing about the DA:I combat at all.  Here's my short list of problems (note that there is more, but I'm not getting into all of it right now:)

 

  • The AI isn't terrible for the party, until you get to a dragon fight.  Then, Solas (or any other ranged class) thinks he's a tank.  Get out of the fire!
  • I really feel like the PC controls were designed with a gamepad in mind.  While they aren't as clunky for me as ME1 was, and while having a gaming mouse helps, the MB/K controls like a complete afterthought.
  • The tactical camera is the worst part.   It's sucks, it's prone to bug out (have fun unpausing sometimes with unresponsive wheel/key bindings!) and doesn't give the range of vision oftentimes to be useful. 

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#140
errantknight

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I agree with the us vs them tone that's unfortunate. I think things are moving in the right direction and the leap forward from DA2 to Inquisition was immense. The biggest problem is that people act as though bioware makes design decisions entirely to ****** them off, when they're obviously trying to make the widest cross section of players happy as possible. Do I wish they'd stayed away from action rpg territory? Sure I do, but it is what it is and the DA2 fans don't deserve to be thrown under the bus any more than the Origins fans do. I think if we're all reasonable, respectful to each other and to the devs, everyone can be happy, but it's a balancing act that may take some time to perfect.


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#141
northsidelunatic

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a game for loser's by loser's, I mean if youre on your 3rd play through of this pile of crap you must   stay in your house all day and never  go outside and see peeple,   this game is about as addicting as eating   my own **** which I wouldnt do so I tend not to play this game even though I payed full price for it, kinda tired of seeing my dead characters talking to me, crappy graphics   iron bull must be  some ******'s fantasy  him the the trans chacter, the madden style instant replay tatical, camera, blantly obvious,  gamel thats just as copy paste  a s ff xiv v 1.0 that had it servers shut down I dare bioware to make this a subsciption model  mmo,,they must wanna destoy their fanbase  in the 25-34 age bracket  this game is shallow  as it gets, l



#142
BiscuitieKai

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It is for a lot of people.  I'm not one of them, but that's a very common mentality all over the forums right now.  If anything, I'm sick and tired of the "Them vs Us" that has taken over the forums. I even read just earlier in this very thread on this page that if you liked Inquisition, you're not a real RPG fan.  I was also addressing the point of the OP, which was to ditch a party and go with a more "Skyrim" route.  

 

It's also gotten old to read people beating the Skyrim horse into the ground in general. "Skyrim is the best!" "Screw you fanboy, Skyrim is the worst!" "Skyrim sold 20 million copies, so that's what BioWare should do."  "BioWare is trying to rip off Skyrim, and it's going to kill the series."  And on, and on, and on.   Good for Skyrim, but I'm burned out.

 

Skyrim has some good ideas and some fun ideas too.  However, out of all the ideas to take from Skyrim, their companion system is not one of them.

 

 

I kinda hate this comment (not the commentor) "you're not a real RPG fan." <----- (this comment)
this kind of statement falls to "the true gamer" mentality...we are all gamers here mind you guys its kinda lame alienating people or person for loving and playing something you dont like 

edit: totaly agree to Natashina



#143
Farangbaa

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  • The tactical camera is the worst part.   It's sucks, it's prone to bug out (have fun unpausing sometimes with unresponsive wheel/key bindings!) and doesn't give the range of vision oftentimes to be useful. 

You can change the angle in the tac cam to just about anything. If I need a larger view, I just angle the camera to a more 3rd person view.

Sure, it would've been way better if they just zoomed out more, but it's not unplayable.

And Skyrim is one of the most afwul RPGs I've ever played :P

#144
Grieving Natashina

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You can change the angle in the tac cam to just about anything. If I need a larger view, I just angle the camera to a more 3rd person view.

Sure, it would've been way better if they just zoomed out more, but it's not unplayable.

And Skyrim is one of the most afwul RPGs I've ever played :P

I never said it was unplayable, only that it sucks.  I almost never use it, but thankfully, my gaming mouse allows for me to have pretty fluid combat without it.  ;)



#145
Seraphim24

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Sure, let's take the thing Bioware's best at out of their games and turn them into the thing that bioware's worst at; careful balance and thoughtful combat mechanics. This will go well.

 

One awesome character > 9 medium ones IMO.



#146
Farangbaa

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It seems a bit strange to put party tactics in that list. I thought the value of Tactics in DA:O and especially DA2 was that they let me play the games as if they were action games. So instead of assigning everybody's actions I could just wade in there with my PC and blast away. If I wanted a more BG2-ish experience I would turn Tactics off.


So much this. In DA:O I always immediatly turned of the tactics of everybody.

#147
StrangeStrategy

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accuracy/time of Skyrim combat? What, you mean "spam attack" until its dead combat?

 

Anyway... NO. I would hate this so much. I play Bioware games for the story and the companions... If they removed either, it wouldn't be the same. Combat is a nice bonus for me, not the focus.



#148
Fast Jimmy

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<p>

It is for a lot of people. I'm not one of them, but that's a very common mentality all over the forums right now. If anything, I'm sick and tired of the "Them vs Us" that has taken over the forums. I even read just earlier in this very thread on this page that if you liked Inquisition, you're not a real RPG fan. I was also addressing the point of the OP, which was to ditch a party and go with a more "Skyrim" route.

It's also gotten old to read people beating the Skyrim horse into the ground in general. "Skyrim is the best!" "Screw you fanboy, Skyrim is the worst!" "Skyrim sold 20 million copies, so that's what BioWare should do." "BioWare is trying to rip off Skyrim, and it's going to kill the series." And on, and on, and on. Good for Skyrim, but I'm burned out.

Skyrim has some good ideas and some fun ideas too. However, out of all the ideas to take from Skyrim, their companion system is not one of them.

I'm also not arguing about the DA:I combat at all. Here's my short list of problems (note that there is more, but I'm not getting into all of it right now:)

  • The AI isn't terrible for the party, until you get to a dragon fight. Then, Solas (or any other ranged class) thinks he's a tank. Get out of the fire!
  • I really feel like the PC controls were designed with a gamepad in mind. While they aren't as clunky for me as ME1 was, and while having a gaming mouse helps, the MB/K controls like a complete afterthought.
  • The tactical camera is the worst part. It's sucks, it's prone to bug out (have fun unpausing sometimes with unresponsive wheel/key bindings!) and doesn't give the range of vision oftentimes to be useful.

Doesn't that list indicate to you that Bioware would be best served to abandon heir intentions to use tactical gameplay in future games? The tac cam wasn't made with the intent of using it once every fight (let alone using it ALWAYS for all combat), the UI was made for a gamepad, the control over the tactics was removed... what about any of that says Bioware wasn't making an action game?

Action games with full party control are impossible - hence the call to remove party control in future games. You can leave the companions and have them run around mindless AI, just like in ME. Then Bioware can make one type of game, instead of making two or three types of games with poor execution.


It's not a game I would buy... but then again, neither is DA:I.

#149
Kantr

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DA4 without party members would not be something I want to play



#150
TheJediSaint

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How about a better interface for controlling our party in combat. Especially for PC.