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Magic Support Thread (Spoilers)


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#1
Warden Majere

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It seems that there is a support thread for just about everything else in Thedas, so let's not leave out magic. So, without further delay, welcome to the Magic Support thread! If you have arguments, thoughts, or insightful perspectives into the Arcane, then discuss them here. There are numerous views on magic in Thedas, so let's work together to gather them all here.

 

To start the discussion, I want to throw in something that jellobell said in the Solas thread.

while we're on the subject of magic, I'll just put my gushing about Solas and magic in here (this was originally in another thread but it died).
 
"Personally, I find Solas's ideas about spirits and the fade rather revolutionary. If the widespread belief that magic is inherently dangerous, and fear of possession by demons actually contributes to both of those things being "true" then that has profound implications going forward. And it's even backed up by established lore if you think about it. Magic draws from the Fade, which is raw potential. But it's shaped by the mage who draws upon it. Circle teachings both teach and restrict, by directing what mages believe to be possible. That's why all circle-trained mages do the same spells. Hedge-mages, though, who haven't had any formal training aren't able to do the sorts of things circle mages can, because their way of thinking about magic hasn't been directed. So hedge mage powers take on strange and unpredictable forms. Saarebas, who are treated basically like guns (dangerous things used to make war) are only able to make big, destructive explosions with their magic (confirmed by David Gaider in a pre-release interview). With magic, it seems that belief above all is what gives it form. It could even explain stuff like limited mana pools.
 
And if we accept that to be true, then perhaps we can see how the ancient elves were so powerful. If they did not have the same sorts of restrictive beliefs about what magic could do, then they could conceivably reshape reality with a thought. Perhaps it was also a consequence of no veil separating the magic of the fade from the "real" world. Though I swear there was a codex entry that also said that the image of the veil as a physical barrier was deceptive, because entering the Fade relies more on a change in perception. The Fade corresponds to places in the "real" world, after all. Solas said he had to physically travel to find new areas of the Fade to explore. Therefore, the Fade is all around us. We simply can't access it unless we are a mage, or have some other means (such as the anchor)."


#2
AlexiaRevan

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I support mage and Magic and Blood Magic . But...

 

This part 

 

 

And if we accept that to be true, then perhaps we can see how the ancient elves were so powerful. If they did not have the same sorts of restrictive beliefs about what magic could do, then they could conceivably reshape reality with a thought. Perhaps it was also a consequence of no veil separating the magic of the fade from the "real" world.

Give me flashback , and bad one and boring one about the same stuff..well kinda  . 

 

In Planescape Torment , from your companion Dak'kon . Shape the world around you and everything , that so far never led to anything good . flying fortress always end up tumbling leaving ruins and memories or Golem (in NWN) . Or in the case of Planescape Torment it left those who could do such a thing open and weak and they all end up slave that end up like with Thedas in a war or internal war . 

 

Although from what I could understand from Solas , what he wish was that there would be no barrier between our world and the Veil and that demons and spirit cohabite and be friends with..well everyone else right 

 

But at the same time , he claim humans are the one who corrupt a spirit since they have no form of their own . So.....wouldnt that be like opening a big door to major corruption ^ 

 

So yeah while I support Magic , Mages and all.....it was never shown as good . I mean it is like the Sith and jedi , they only show you the good Jedi and the Bad Sith . The dark side of the force or the Light Side of it . But never show you what happen if one use a light side abilitie to do bad without adding an outside interference (Yes Im looking at ya Jedi Knight of Swtor lol) . 

 

I mean if it is like the Weave (D&D) and tapping in positive and negative energy....then.....taking the barrier in between world..what would that mean ^ 



#3
Willowhugger

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I love Solas but how do we explain Justice then who is Justice before, after, and during?



#4
raging_monkey

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I support magical expression and believe for all the knowledge mages have they know nothing of magic. Favorite thread

#5
dragonflight288

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I love Solas but how do we explain Justice then who is Justice before, after, and during?

 

In Solas' personal quest, where we try to help his friend the Spirit of Wisdom, he explains that its easy to corrupt spirits we meet as thy react to how we perceive them. Wisdom was summoned to do a task against its nature and so became corrupted by it and became a demon of pride. 



#6
Warden Majere

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I love Solas but how do we explain Justice then who is Justice before, after, and during?

Our buddy from Awakening? If we are to go off of Solas' views on the Fade, then I suppose he started as a spirit of justice. When he met the Warden, he could sense the justice in his heart and reflected that to everyone everyone around them. Yet, after to much time around Anders, and the memories of Kristoff, justice was slowly changed into vengeance.

This is very similar to Solas' friend. It is originally encountered as a spirit of Wisdom, but after captured, and forced to do things against his nature, he became a spirit of Pride.

#7
raging_monkey

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Solas seriously gave the fandom a gift.. a gift of transendance imagine if spirits can co-exist with mortals where possession can be a good thing... i think the rivaini had it close to this
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#8
Colonelkillabee

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I say the fade's better off without mortals. Everything's already linked to the fade anyway, and to the fade they'll go when they die. Why bother getting rid of what makes these two planes unique. The natural order is as it is meant to be. Linking the two might simply make it hell for everyone. Two forms of life forced to suddenly accept and understand a new one equals lots and lots of corrupted spirits. I.E. Demons. Not much different than what Corypheus tried.



#9
Colonelkillabee

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This sounds like the same hogwash the abomination in Origins blathered about.



#10
raging_monkey

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This sounds like the same hogwash the abomination in Origins blathered about.

it made sense from a existential view imo. What if a mage is the larval form of something more, but mergers go wrong for x reason. Its something to ponder

#11
Iadro

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I support magic in every incarnation! As the world turns, so do mages find better ways to enhance Thedas into a land of terrifying beauty and intoxicating horror!



#12
Colonelkillabee

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it made sense from a existential view imo. What if a mage is the larval form of something more, but mergers go wrong for x reason. Its something to ponder

They're free to let themselves be double stuffed all they want, lol. I'll be playing hit the pinata though.


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#13
Warden Majere

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Just look at what the Elves of the time of Arlathan were able to accomplish! They didn't have a Chantry, or a Circle, or even Templars. Yet, they were able to attain magical marvels that we can't even begin to dream about. There is still so much that we have yet to understand regarding magic and the Fade.



#14
raging_monkey

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They're free to let themselves be double stuffed all they want, lol. I'll be playing hit the pinata though.

haha ill give you the laugh. But its somthing to wonder in the long run
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#15
Warden Majere

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I don't believe in possession. Even if joining yourself to a spirit gives you immeasurable power. I believe that if you need a spirit to gain that power, then maybe you're better off in a circle. Working with spirits to learn ancient magics, and thus increasing your power, is acceptable. But taking the shortcut, and simply letting the spirit in rather than mastering the knowledge it offers, is despicable. I say this, not out of love for the Chantry, but for love of self discipline. 



#16
raging_monkey

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Never said it was "good" veiw but more a alternative path

#17
Warden Majere

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Never said it was "good" veiw but more a alternative path

You've got me there. Not to mention, that the cure for the Right of Tranquility is to temporarily become possessed. The Seekers gain their power by becoming Tranquil, and temporarily becoming possessed by a spirit of Faith. If the mages that get cured can maintain a healthy psyche, then this temporary possession will become widespread throughout Thedas. This proves that possession does have some interesting qualities that are certainly worthy of some study.



#18
raging_monkey

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Agreed. Possesion has a negative connotation i seek something along the lines of "symbiosis"

#19
Warden Majere

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While I agree that there are bonuses for temporarily accepting a spirit into your being. Taking one in permanently however, never turns out well. Spirits are made up of energy devoted solely to a single idea. Whether this is Faith, Wisdom, Pride, or Rage. Spirits cannot maintain their own being when their single minded psyche is combined with the multifaceted consciousness of a mortal. Demons have a higher chance of taking primary control, and are better at maintaining their "idea" through possession. Spirits of a lighter nature however, almost never survive the exposure to so many things that go against their nature. Anders and Justice, as well as Solas' friend Wisdo show this perfectly. 

 

Although, Wynne managed to make her body a host to a spirit of Faith, without the negative repercussions that we have seen before. Thus, we do know that it's possible for a benevolent spirit to maintain maintain its nature while residing within a mortal body.



#20
Warden Majere

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So, we know that magic draws its power from the Fade, and certain Spirits loan power to certain schools of magic. I am curious if we know specifically what Spirits influence what schools? 



#21
raging_monkey

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While I agree that there are bonuses for temporarily accepting a spirit into your being. Taking one in permanently however, never turns out well. Spirits are made up of energy devoted solely to a single idea. Whether this is Faith, Wisdom, Pride, or Rage. Spirits cannot maintain their own being when their single minded psyche is combined with the multifaceted consciousness of a mortal. Demons have a higher chance of taking primary control, and are better at maintaining their "idea" through possession. Spirits of a lighter nature however, almost never survive the exposure to so many things that go against their nature. Anders and Justice, as well as Solas' friend Wisdo show this perfectly. 
 
Although, Wynne managed to make her body a host to a spirit of Faith, without the negative repercussions that we have seen before. Thus, we do know that it's possible for a benevolent spirit to maintain maintain its nature while residing within a mortal body.

I think its all about mental state

Ex 1: wynn was bonded to faith and she functioned "" due to her having faith in the circle and and whatever else so she functioned normally until that faith was injured and temorarily was "irritatable"(though tgis could just be a mother's reaction)

Ex2: anders' case is a bit more extreme due various factors. Over the years he had experianced various "injustices" he saw and those perverted his partner's focus from even and fair "justice" to biased and unstable "vengence". Now its possible that kirkwall and anders anger were the catalyst for this perversion of symbiosis,its possible that outside of this enviroment they couldve been like wynn.

#22
Warden Majere

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I think its all about mental state

Ex 1: wynn was bonded to faith and she functioned "" due to her having faith in the circle and and whatever else so she functioned normally until that faith was injured and temorarily was "irritatable"(though tgis could just be a mother's reaction)

Ex2: anders' case is a bit more extreme due various factors. Over the years he had experianced various "injustices" he saw and those perverted his partner's focus from even and fair "justice" to biased and unstable "vengence". Now its possible that kirkwall and anders anger were the catalyst for this perversion of symbiosis,its possible that outside of this enviroment they couldve been like wynn.

While I think that it is possible that Anders could have prevented the perversion of Justice, were the circumstances different, I don't think it's likely. We all have a darker side to us, and many people let that side rule their actions. This darker side could be something as simple, and dangerous as pride. I believe Wynne to be a special case, as she had spent a lifetime mastering herself. She had gone through enough crap to humble her views, and enough Circle training to gain extraordinary self control. This is why Anders would fail every time. He lacked those qualities. So yes, it does seem to be a matter of mental state.  

 

This may be the reason that demons have an easier possessing a body, while maintaining the idea that they represent. They seek out an individual that has a strong alignment to what thy represent, and they nurture it. Thus Uldred and his Pride, or Flemeth and her travelling buddy. Anders was never a ideal host for Justice, as he harbored to much rage in his heart. If mages were willing to teach self control beyond simply protecting yourself from demons, and helped you find a spirit aligned with your own soul, the study of spirits and possession would move forward centuries!!



#23
raging_monkey

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I find circlesto be a hinderance on this matter but yes with circle training and proper self control the possiblities are infinite

#24
Warden Majere

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Maybe I should reword that, with the help of the newly formed Circle of Enchanters, which is free from Chantry rule.



#25
raging_monkey

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Maybe I should reword that, with the help of the newly formed Circle of Enchanters, which is free from Chantry rule.

alledgly but yes i really think this fertile ground