452 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

It feels like, based on how emotional some people are posting in this topic, that they are imposing some sort of malicious intent with the animation when I don't think there is any.

[Keitaro57]

Plate armor is rather flexible and articulated. It had to be. If not, riding would have been impossible, as would fighting. Also, it didn't weigh nearly as much as you're claiming. It could weigh as little as 30lbs.

A big hunk of metal can note be as skin-tight and flexible as a leather pants. I wore a complete metal armor once, and you are not as free of your movements that in the movies, for sure! The heaviest armor are in fact build to have the max of weight on the ground, so it need a junction from the torso to the feets. If you have free hips, then you have the weight of the armor on your shoulders and you'll suffer...

The main problem is efficiency : by rolling your hips, you will not be able to use your full strengh to move the stuff on your back. Walking the cat-walk, yes. Running, no.

[massive_effect]

Dragon's Dogma has a great solution to the female gait issue. There's a slider that controls the stance from ladylike to macho. In general, Dragon's Dogma's customization would solve many issues we have with DAI.

[KBomb]

A big hunk of metal can note be as skin-tight and flexible as a leather pants. I wore a complete metal armor once, and you are not as free of your movements that in the movies, for sure! The heaviest armor are in fact build to have the max of weight on the ground, so it need a junction from the torso to the feets. If you have free hips, then you have the weight of the armor on your shoulders and you'll suffer...
The main problem is efficiency : by rolling your hips, you will not be able to use your full strengh to move the stuff on your back. Walking the cat-walk, yes. Running, no.

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect. Armor was made to distribute weight evenly and to give you a freedom of movement. Was it as light weight and flexible as mail and/or leather, Of course not, but that doesn't alter the fact that plate didn't weigh over a hundred pounds. They were also articulated so that your torso, hips, arms and legs could move freely. All the movements needed to wield a weapon or shield. It's a common myth that plate was heavy and bulky. Perhaps decorative and ceremonial armor was, but not actual working armor. It's the same myth that perpetrates about broadswords. Those weren't heavy or unwieldy either. If this were true about either, their implementation would be counterproductive.

[errantknight]

It feels like, based on how emotional some people are posting in this topic, that they are imposing some sort of malicious intent with the animation when I don't think there is any.

Agreed. That wasn't the intent, but it has an unfortunate, and no doubt unforseen result. They were responding to the complaints of some players who wanted their females to look more 'feminine', thinking that they looke d too 'masculine', while failing to realize that doing so woulld irritate just as many for a host of reasons. I'm certain they were trying to do a good thing, but there's a reason that neutral demenor is the watchword in an rpg. IMO, there should be one run for males and females and it shoulld be neither noticably feminine or noticably masculine. It should be the movement equivalent of neutral. I like the idea of a gait slider as mentioned above, but damn, that sounds like a lot of work and a lot of different animation files. I'd understand if they didn't want to do that.

[massive_effect]

I like the idea of a gait slider as mentioned above, but damn, that sounds like a lot of work and a lot of different animation filles. I'd understand if they didn't want to do that.

It's newer technology. So, it's not as hard as it sounds.

[Voragoras]

The weird thing about this is that in forcing an exaggerated and highly subjective version of 'femininity' on the players, they are also forcing a particular type of character on the player, which is counter to everything an rpg should be. There's a reason that player characters tend to respond with relatively neutral expressions, or show emotion after the dialogue line has been picked and not before. It's so the character can be the person the player wishes them to be, not one who's imposed on them. These female movements impose characterization on the player in the worst possible way as well as making bizare choices for the npcs. I mean, does anyone *really* think Cassandra would run like that? I sure don't. Lol, my mage is running into battle first beacuse I can't bear to see that. If they want to give people the choice, make it less offensively ridiculous--I mean, that would be painful after a quarter mile--and put it on a toggle. I challenge the animators ro run like that for a mile and see how it feels. Also to time themselves and see how much slower it would be than a more efficient run.

 

I agree. Ideally, there should be an option to switch between the two, or a neutral ground between overly masculine and overly feminine.

[kilgh]

Yeah, but have you spent your whole life training to be a hardcore medieval warrior?

[kilgh]

Bioware isn't the inventor of that Anime style girly run. It's the run that is Misogynistic. The fantasy of the submissive wanton female that pervades certain parts of culture. I just wish Bioware wasn't using it as the standard for all the female characters regardless of appropriateness. I agree with those suggesting it is a lazy programming shortcut to be honest. 

[Calders]

Bioware isn't the inventor of that Anime style girly run. It's the run that is Misogynistic. The fantasy of the submissive wanton female that pervades certain parts of culture. I just wish Bioware wasn't using it as the standard for all the female characters regardless of appropriateness. I agree with those suggesting it is a lazy programming shortcut to be honest. 

 

<sigh>  the run is not there because anybody hates women, the run is not there because of some deviant fantasy about submissive women, the run is not even inherently submissive.  It is an exaggerated version of the female gate in the same way that the male run is an exaggerated version of the male gate (is that misandric?).  These childish claims that "I don't like something so it must be oppression" are so tiresome.

[errantknight]

<sigh>  the run is not there because anybody hates women, the run is not there because of some deviant fantasy about submissive women, the run is not even inherently submissive.  It is an exaggerated version of the female gate in the same way that the male run is an exaggerated version of the male gate (is that misandric?).  These childish claims that "I don't like something so it must be oppression" are so tiresome.

I have to agree with Calders. Assuming opression is just...well, kind of silly when this comes from Bioware, the company that never has female armor or inappropriate dresses, and consistantly has strong female characters.. I mean, have you looked at some of the other animations? Say, Cassandra walking? New system, a few kinks to be worked out. Yes, the run is ludicrous, But I don't think it was on purpose or malicious.. Here, and in DA2, they thought they were doing what people wanted. They were wrong, But ascribing that to patriarcal evil is going WAY too far. They bollocked the animation and made a mistake in not having a more neutral run in the first place, that's as far as it goes.

 

That being said, I reallly want this to go away and the more passive 'resting' animation for females annoys me greatly, but I really don't think anyone is *trying* to portray women in an ineffectual light. People asked for this, they delivered--it's still dumb, lol.

[karushna5]

I am a butch,  shorter hair than most guys I know and life goals to be the bulkiest around, and I don't see the malicious intent. I do think that perhaps it was a bit much and a lack of any genderized motion is best since I make characters who would never walk like that, but whether you are the coolest femme on the block, or the toughest lady most people are fine with a neutral  gate. 

 

Although, I know women that walk like that, and while it is usually learned and often more pronounced to make an impression even in people who do it normally, people do walk like that, and calling them freaks and unnatural, and that being girly girls (because apparently a girl being a girl is somehow strange, never heard of a boying boy) is somehow a bad thing to be, is kinda malicious. 

 

Hyper femininity exists and a good thing to be. You go Girl! Hyper masculinity exists and a good thing to be. Atta Gir! I ask Bioware that perhaps the best option when warring between them is to take something inbetween.

[Octarin]

yeah and a load of people were moaning they walked like guys

we need a saints row walk toggle

 

They do walk like guys. And the guys in some scenes walk like girls, there's that scene in the Winter Palace after you consult your advisors and Cullen turns to walk away and he walks like Yuna in FFX lol. Well, not lol, aint funny, but seriously, what's with the females walking like they are butch and got balls obstructing their pace? An elephant can pass through my inquisitor's legs while Leliana and Cassandra walk all feminine like. I want the Unreal engine back. It was the same with ME2 and ME3 femsheps, walking and moving like butch. Not on, but Bioware doesn't listen. Like ever.

[Grieving Natashina]

I am a butch,  shorter hair than most guys I know and life goals to be the bulkiest around, and I don't see the malicious intent. I do think that perhaps it was a bit much and a lack of any genderized motion is best since I make characters who would never walk like that, but whether you are the coolest femme on the block, or the toughest lady most people are fine with a neutral  gate. 

 

Although, I know women that walk like that, and while it is usually learned and often more pronounced to make an impression even in people who do it normally, people do walk like that, and calling them freaks and unnatural, and that being girly girls (because apparently a girl being a girl is somehow strange, never heard of a boying boy) is somehow a bad thing to be, is kinda malicious. 

 

Hyper femininity exists and a good thing to be. You go Girl! Hyper masculinity exists and a good thing to be. Atta Gir! I ask Bioware that perhaps the best option when warring between them is to take something inbetween.

Posts like this is why I've missed ya.  

[errantknight]

They do walk like guys. And the guys in some scenes walk like girls, there's that scene in the Winter Palace after you consult your advisors and Cullen turns to walk away and he walks like Yuna in FFX lol. Well, not lol, aint funny, but seriously, what's with the females walking like they are butch and got balls obstructing their pace? An elephant can pass through my inquisitor's legs while Leliana and Cassandra walk all feminine like. I want the Unreal engine back. It was the same with ME2 and ME3 femsheps, walking and moving like butch. Not on, but Bioware doesn't listen. Like ever.

Because they hate you and want to annoy you. They're ignoring you on purpose. Not the populace in general. You, specifically.

 

Come on, guys. You can send feedback about a design choice without assuming distain or malicious intent. This is getting silly.

[karushna5]

Posts like this is why I've missed ya.  

I am touched you noticed I have been gone.

[Grieving Natashina]

I am touched you noticed I have been gone.

<points to her blue text in her signature>

 

I remember the day you said that, and me asking you if I may quote you.  Of course I noticed.  

[kilgh]

Last try.

 

My point being that some characters may suit a girly (as in the extreme of female) gait, but not as the DEFAULT. As this is not in line with real world reality or specifically the reality of some of the characters.

 

Based on the dictionary definition of misogyny my point is valid in as much as A) It's a weaker stereotype of women. Bioware didn't see the realistic portrayal of their core female characters worth spending time/money on and DEFAULTED to the physically weaker, non athletic motion. C) It denigrates certain female characters who are one minute brutal warriors or elegant sophisticated elves the next seemingly stereotypically wiggling ass and flapping arms.

 

As to the men being manly men defaults, this is far less denigrating as it is portraying all the men as powerful. I'm thinking your average male is less likely to complain that all the men are being portrayed as unrealistically too powerful. I personally have never seen a male gamer post this complaint.

 

If you don't see this as denigrating than fair enough. However I have seen enough annoyed and passionate woman gamers (and some men) agree with my post to know I'm far from alone in finding consistently overly girly female DEFAULTS to be annoying.

 

Again, my point is why do ALL of them have to be this way? Not "why are some girls girly?" or "extreme females don't exist" or "I secretly hate myself". Just why are ALL the females running THIS way in is THIS game?

 

It annoys me. That's all.

[karushna5]

I don't think you secretly hate yourself but while I agree that it would be perfect that Cassandra have one walk and Vivienne another, thats expensive and the language used in these arguments ignore that women have complained in the past about walks being too masculine and this was an answer to people saying they were too lazy to make a female centric walk.

 

The way you have talked about it "Weaker stereotype" "denigrates... elegant sophisticated elves to stereotypically wiggling ass and flapping arms" "overly girly female"

 

It is this language I have a problem with and any woman who does walk this way. I actually agree with you. I don't want it as a default either, but it isn't insulting people, and making them sound like they are ridiculous and absurd that is the answer.

 

You are allowed to be annoyed. But goodness knows I hate it when people call me a bad stereotype. I also hate it when people imply any gender presentation is a bad stereotype. When The L word came out people were rejoicing that it didn't have butch lesbians, man ladies with no sense of fashion, and had "real" women. The first time I have seen a Hard Butch lesbian since was a character in Orange is the New Black but everytime a character I like is contested for being a lesbian she is called "stereotypical" and it is rejoiced by some they didn't make her into a "bad stereotype".

 

That stuff hurts. No ones a bad stereotype for their gender presentation. That is where the maliciousness is coming from, not what you are wanting but the way the argument is being phrased as to make hyper feminine ladies seem less. We, as women, seem to be at crossroads these days on how we like to be represented, and since gender constraints are looser now on women than ever before it is surprising how split we are becoming. I think it is important to realize femininity has an importance in culture, as well as masculinity, and both can be celebrated OR argued for without denigrating each other, in All settings. 

[cindercatz]

Jesus Christ, now people are attacking the male gait animation. Guys and gals, that's pretty close to how I move, more smooth, but hey, I have high natural agility. I do *NOT* move in a "neutral", gender conscious way. It's kinesthetics, not politics, not ingrained social engineering. It is *painful* for me to try to sit or walk in what would be a "neutral" way. But apparently that's "gorilla animation" now. Thanks. Ladies are just like us fellas that way.  I refer you to our resident runner's post a few posts back. Also, I doubt many complainers have ever actually studied movement or really, really paid attention to how you (or a lot of other women) move. No animation majors, kinesthesiologists, serious athletes among them, I bet. I'd caution you may not be aware of everything going on with your own personal locomotion. Most people aren't. Your politics may be dictating what your eyes are telling you.

 

"Neutral" movement is completely unnatural, because what might be neutral for you is cringeworthy in it's uncomfortability to me. Animation like that would just look even more awkward than the shared cutscene animation. DA:O's running animations weren't better. They were awkward and dated. They reminded me of those stiff animations you get in old blocky cg. There's no weight or balance, like they're in half gravity and bobbing off their feet with immobile spines and hips on a tire rod. It's unreal. The modern walk is just better, more advanced animation.  Your character has a mostly predetermined body. They move according to what looks more natural for their body. And they have their own animation sets. No it's not perfect, but they're not mocapped. (They could be, I guess. But people would still cry 'unintentional sexism', because that's what a lot of people are taught to think, how to think.) They're not purely your avatar, certainly not physically.

 

As for a solution to the perception problem, sure they could have a slider. That'd mean a heck of a lot more animation work if you still want high quality presentation. It'd also still be a bit unrealistic and probably problematic for some because it wouldn't feasibly account for mood. Most of you have no idea how much involuntary body language is going on with your basic, general movement. They at least should have unique *non-gender neutral* cutscene animation, so we don't have that weird, awkward juxtaposition they still have now. That's a lot easier to do. They can afford those little details on a multi-million dollar game. It means more dev focus goes to that side of the presentation though, which means something else goes on the back burner a bit, but it's not unreasonable I think. Going to "neutral" animation everywhere because politics would just result in a crap presentation. It already hurts the games now where they try. I don't want anymore of that; I want less, because it's awkward and jarring and poor. >< 

 

edit: Lilac's post, last page. Read it.

edit 2: spelling. I'm tired

[kilgh]

But that style of running IS physically weaker. If it wasn't then that's how the top athletes would run. They don't. They run with long powerful strides and no wasted arm energy. It is a physically weaker way to run. Hyperfit warriors wouldn't run like that. Noone who looks at a woman running like that would say "now there is a powerful brutal killer". It's a patently weak run.

 

If I saw someone running toward me like that I would be ready to smile and wave hello. It's not a threatening focused hunter prowess warrior stride.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

you do realise you are begining to sound sexist dont you?

honistly i just ignore the walk its just bad cheap animation.

[cindercatz]

But that style of running IS physically weaker. If it wasn't then that's how the top athletes would run. They don't. They run with long powerful strides and no wasted arm energy. It is a physically weaker way to run. Hyperfit warriors wouldn't run like that. Noone who looks at a woman running like that would say "now there is a powerful brutal killer". It's a patently weak run.

 

If I saw someone running toward me like that I would be ready to smile and wave hello. It's not a threatening focused hunter prowess warrior stride.

If you're in a sprint, not a distance run, you want a longer, pushing stride. Our characters are not sprinting, like ever, because it's highly expensive on the body to do that. Our characters are distance running if anything, a lot closer to a jog. Now on an attack charging move, I'd agree with you somewhat, except that would be alot more about gaining leverage on a step. It's still a completely different motion. Think moving inta a Bruce Lee step kick or an MMA Rhonda Rouse (sp) chute to ground. But we don't have anything like that in the game. It's just abstracted with a flashy forward slide like the rogue's backstab special.

[cindercatz]

you do realise you are begining to sound sexist dont you?

honistly i just ignore the walk its just bad cheap animation.

Since when is non-gender neutral movement sexist? o.O That's just reality, and that's my point. It could be better, sure, but 'better' doesn't mean exactly the same, or consciously less appealing because politics. I just get tired of seeing these attitudes being treated like gospel truth and a political wedge when they're not and they shouldn't be. If you can just do more options, great, but I've actually studied movement a good bit. I was an animation major, I was an athlete, I've trained a bit in martial arts. I know what I'm talking about. Somebody saying 'sexism' doesn't make their argument more valid. I get tired of that trope.

[Cornughon]

Speaking of female jogging: I took another look at Dreamfall Chapter's Zoë, and I realised she could do with a little bit more hip sway, since there's none at all (all in my opinion ofcourse, but I love the ass though):

http://www.youtube.c...Jh5XUaGY4#t=218

thoughts?