452 réponses à ce sujet

[SardaukarElite]

The only real way bioware could do it properly would be through motion capture, though that is very resource intense and requires a lot of cleaning up afterwards.

This has nothing to do IMO with feminism, masculinity or gender, it's just quick animation work for a massive game.

People have read too much into this.

 

People have been doing high quality animations without mocapping since Disney. Motion capture is important when you need absolute precision, or to capture multiple people interacting, but it's not the be all and end all.

 

More importantly though, the two different characters have two different exaggerated walks, that was a choice. Regardless of how quickly they were trying to do it they chose to make men lurch and women gyrate. They didn't need to.

 

 

Bioware can't win here. The only way to shut both groups up is to do motion capture which is far more convincing than animation by hand.

 

The problem has always been that women get ridiculous 'feminine' animations, or default to the same ridiculous apenimations that men get. BioWare only can't win so long as they stick to those two options.

[Arbiter156]

People have been doing high quality animations without mocapping since Disney. Motion capture is important when you need absolute precision, or to capture multiple people interacting, but it's not the be all and end all.

More importantly though, the two different characters have two different exaggerated walks, that was a choice. Regardless of how quickly they were trying to do it they chose to make men lurch and women gyrate. They didn't need to.



The problem has always been that women get ridiculous 'feminine' animations, or default to the same ridiculous apenimations that men get. BioWare only can't win so long as they stick to those two options.

You need to appreciate that bioware only has limited resources for DA:I.

Disney is not a great example. Disney spends all their time on animation, that's what thier films are about, bioware doesn't have that luxury since there are so many more things which go into a game.

They cannot spend much time on walking animations, I'm sure that the animators want to but they have to get on with the endless dialogue facial animations, I'm not saying their work is great but I can see why things turned out like that. The animations are acceptable but not much else.

Motion capture is expensive for the studio and the actors have to do more, however it's almost as to do fast as hand animations, I suspect it may be biowares pipe dream at the moment.

[Panda]

I would disagree on that, the animations for either gender don't look realistic. People want thier female PCs to look feminine, so when bioware tries to do that people complain that it looks too girly and then when bioware switches it back complain they look too manly.

Bioware can't win here. The only way to shut both groups up is to do motion capture which is far more convincing than animation by hand.

The default male animations look meh to me anyway, it's like people are so desperate for thier female characters to move differently that they claim the male animations look great when they don't.

Thing with hand animation is that you can tell it doesn't look right, you don't know why but you know it doesn't.

 

I have never complained about those so it's kinda that BW has made situation awful for me to cater people who want this exaggerated feminine style. DAO is still best there has been Also I don't understand what's wrong with male animation since I haven't seen anything wrong with them in DAO, DA2, DAI and ME and I play lot of both genders. Only female animations have been issue so far.

 

I think BW would do best if they stopped exaggerating hip sway and stopped twisting female characters spine. It's not like it's harder to animate neutral walk.. they make it too hard for themselves with this feminine-style of walking. I'd prefer genderneutral walks for both PC's so you can actually craft your character and not have BW to decide that they have sassy runway walk if they are women or manly walk if they are men.

[SardaukarElite]

You need to appreciate that bioware only has limited resources for DA:I.

 

You need to appreciate that a resource limitation doesn't suddenly make everything terrible.

 

 

Phantom animations from ME3. Those are the animations for one enemy type and they are carefully crafted.

 

Now you can argue the toss about how good or bad any animation is, that's not the point, the point is that BioWare's animators chose to (for whatever reason) make the animations the way they did.

[Namea]

100% internalized misogyny. Sorry. "Weak little woman, like a doll, strutting, etc." It's all your projection and you're just proving my point. According to you hegemonic masculinity is the only thing deserving of respect. Anyone who doesn't immediately default to that is weak and unworthy of any leadership position.

 

Wait, let me guess...You have a tumblr, you actually still believe women are oppressed and you don't consider men to have any sort of societal pressures.

 

Interalized misogyny my ass. 

I just believe that a leader needs to be someone strong enough to lead, especially when written as the inquisitor is. Some weak little girl would not fit the idea of a woman who can hold her own on a battlefield. It makes no sense.

 

If your character were written like Josephine who doesn't see actual combat, or as a leader like Celene who rules in a political way rather than an in-your-face way it would be appropriate for her to have more feminine posture and movements. However that's not how the character is written. She's a fighter, she kills things and runs all over the continent leading at the forefront of the field, when she's doing that she isn't going to run like she's on a runway and after a long day of fighting and travelling do you really think she'd care about her posture or would she just slump into her throne to get stuff overwith so she could finish up her priorities and go to bed. 

 

I would also like to add that there IS a time and place for femininity, such as during the ball. You have no idea how much it bothered me that even the hyper feminine Josephine and avid player of the game Leliana had to wear boring uniforms rather than dresses that would have been more appropriate for the situation.

 

As for my own inquisitor it would depend. 4 of my 5 characters would have chosen to wear a dress in that situation and my main may have or at least would have chosen to wear something that didn't look so casual and out of place.

 

It's not about my personal beliefs so much as the personalities of the characters I chose to create and the physical impossibility of that runway strut they call a walk/run for the femquisitor. I never once said my beliefs were for everyone or even for every character. You chose to put that on me. I'm also a devout atheist but I have two incredibly religious inquisitors, one a devout andrastian and the other devoted to her elven gods. The characters aren't me but that doesn't mean I don't want them to look the part of a powerful military leader and experienced veteran of the field. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

I agree. Some things are just plain narrow and silly. Like the first paragraph of Namea's post.

I wonder what sort of occupation a "weak little woman" should have? Perhaps knitting sword cozies for all the big, strong women.

well im a crime scene cleaner.

but i admit i misread the post.

[prosthetic soul]

I'm more pissed off the women Inquisitor BOWS instead of curtsying to Celene like a proper woman should.  As for the topic....I have no words...Bioware literally cannot win with you people.  If the Inquisitor didn't have a feminine running animation you'd be whining about it....and we all know what what would happen if it was TOO feminine.   Because it's happening right now.  You're whining about it. 

 

God I miss the 40s.  Women acted like women and men acted like men and nobody cared. 

[Panda]

I'm more pissed off the women Inquisitor BOWS instead of curtsying to Celene like a proper woman should.  As for the topic....I have no words...Bioware literally cannot win with you people.  If the Inquisitor didn't have a feminine running animation you'd be whining about it....and we all know what what would happen if it was TOO feminine.   Because it's happening right now.  You're whining about it. 

 

God I miss the 40s.  Women acted like women and men acted like men and nobody cared. 

 

I don't miss any time with strict gender roles. The bottom line is that you can't walk and run like runway model if you are fighter and running around forest all the time. That has nothing to do with gender, BW just wanted to make very gendered walk which is out of place. If the animation was neutral instead of either animation of men to women or hyperfeminine animation for women then most people wouldn't complain. And there is no way I'd be there complaining about too manly animation, it would be other group; the one who actually some reason I can't comprehent, likes the current animations for female PC.

[prosthetic soul]

I don't miss any time with strict gender roles. The bottom line is that you can't walk and run like runway model if you are fighter and running around forest all the time. That has nothing to do with gender, BW just wanted to make very gendered walk which is out of place. If the animation was neutral instead of either animation of men to women or hyperfeminine animation for women then most people wouldn't complain. And there is no way I'd be there complaining about too manly animation, it would be other group; the one who actually some reason I can't comprehent, likes the current animations for female PC.

That sounds like a pretty strict rule to me.  You're contradicting yourself here. Also, how do you define a NEUTRAL running animation?   What the hell determines that?  Your definition of neutral may not be my definition of neutral.  It's all subjective.  And you're saying you'd only complain about too FEMININE running animation?  Not the other way around?  Wow.  I think we know what the real issue here is.    It can be summed up with one word. 

 

Spoiler

Feminism

[SardaukarElite]

I don't miss any time with strict gender roles.

 

Gender roles were being broken in all kinds of interesting ways during the 40s.

[prosthetic soul]

Gender roles were being broken in all kinds of interesting ways during the 40s.

True.  The glorious thing about that time though is that you weren't CRITICIZED for acting like a man.  And a woman for acting like a WOMAN.  As is the case we're seeing in this very topic. I bet if the Inquisitor female curtsied instead of bowed to Celene we'd have a bunch of militant feminists up in arms over how sexist it was. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Gender roles were being broken in all kinds of interesting ways during the 40s.

Yep, in many ways.  Such as women going to work in the factories and in the press pools because all the men were overseas.  Women's baseball was a real national pasttime during the war as well.  

 

Some of these ladies were "Curtains Girls," meaning that when that "when it's curtains for the Axis, it's lace curtains for her."  After the war was over, they'd quit their jobs and settle back home with their husbands.  

 

Some were not "Curtains Girls" and made lifelong careers out of what had likely started out to be a job likely intended to be temporary.   The 1940s and even the 1950s (contrary to a lot of popular misconception) were extremely progressive times for the start of the change to established social gender roles.

 

Sorry, bit of a history nerd coming out there.  

[SardaukarElite]

True.  The glorious thing about that time though is that you weren't CRITICIZED for acting like a man.  And a woman for acting like a WOMAN.  As is the case we're seeing in this very topic. I bet if the Inquisitor female curtsied instead of bowed to Celene we'd have a bunch of militant feminists up in arms over how sexist it was. 

 

How about you go and ask some women what they want rather than putting bets on what the hypothetical militant feminist would do? A lot of women before launch were asking for a dress for that ball, and I'm pretty sure some would qualify as feminists even.

 

The thing is not everyone wants to have someone else's gender concepts forced on them. The second thing is that criticising the representation of femininity doesn't necessarily have to mean someone is against femininity. I would like to play a feminine hero, I think it would be cool, I don't think that has to go hand in hand with a hip swing that extreme.

[Pasquale1234]

100% internalized misogyny. Sorry. "Weak little woman, like a doll, strutting, etc." It's all your projection and you're just proving my point. According to you hegemonic masculinity is the only thing deserving of respect. Anyone who doesn't immediately default to that is weak and unworthy of any leadership position.

There you go again with the unwarranted accusations and unsupported conclusions.

Part of the problem is that a lot of the overt behaviors considered to be feminine are designed specifically to attract male sexual interest and invoke male protective instincts. These behaviors tend to include projecting weakness, vulnerability, helplessness, defenselessness, submissiveness, powerlessness, dependence, passivity, receptivity, etc. Those characteristics are the antithesis of strength, confidence, competence, authority, etc. - characteristics which I'm guessing would fit that "hegemonic masculinity" of which you speak.

Wanting to claim strength, independence, autonomy, authority as belonging to all genders hardly makes one a misogynist.

[Grieving Natashina]

How about you go and ask some women what they want rather than putting bets on what the hypothetical militant feminist would do? A lot of women before launch were asking for a dress for that ball, and I'm pretty sure some would qualify as feminists even.

 

The thing is not everyone wants to have someone else's gender concepts forced on them. The second thing is that criticising the representation of femininity doesn't necessarily have to mean someone is against femininity. I would like to play a feminine hero, I think it would be cool, I don't think that has to go hand in hand with a hip swing that extreme.

I have a weakness for adding dark red lipstick and black eyeliner to a lot of my female characters.  This goes along with my preference to have longish hair for my lady PCs for the most part.  A dress at the ball would have been very welcome for me as an option (not mandatory) as well.  

 

There are ways to reinforce a sense of femininity without an exaggerated walk that looks painful and actually is very uncomfortable to do.  

[Panda]

That sounds like a pretty strict rule to me.  You're contradicting yourself here. Also, how do you define a NEUTRAL running animation?   What the hell determines that?  Your definition of neutral may not be my definition of neutral.  It's all subjective.  And you're saying you'd only complain about too FEMININE running animation?  Not the other way around?  Wow.  I think we know what the real issue here is.    It can be summed up with one word. 

 

Spoiler

Feminism

 

Neutral would be something like DAO. No hip swaying or spine twisting. Neutral is something that wouldn't be noticeable, it would be just person walking not person walking in masculine or feminine style. Neutral would be also walk that doesn't give any personality to character who should be as close to blank canvas as possible.

 

My viewpoint on this isn't actually feminism, lot of feminist would even argue against it since I'm against of "feminity" for character who fights. Based on what I want my characters to be and also what I think would fit in the situation. Instead of feminine or masculine walk we would need walk of person who travels lot of distances on foot or horse back and is fighter. Poor lady Inquisitor seems too weak build and animation wise to even be able to handle big swords and heavy armor.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah the walk is absurd.

 

I really wanted a pimped out dress.

 

My PC swinging her hips from side to side when walking through the mud is absurd. Can you even walk like that in mud? Wouldn't you just hurt yourself?

 

Her getting preened with eyeliner, dress and a beautiful hairstyle for an Orlesian ball is not.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

honestly its more like corner cutting the run cycle looks ibentical to fem hawke and whith cutscenes they just used the same animation. 

[King Dragonlord]

Seriously? When did you last see a female athlete run like that? Even Ronda Rousey doesn't look that stupid running. Bit sexist if you ask me. I mean maybe some of the girlier characters might run that way but the Warriors? I'd like to see this bit of Misogyny dealt with in future releases.

 

Proof that no matter what you do for this crowd (remove brothels, make clothes bulkier, make it impossible to strip down, remove fanservice shots, remove sex from one of the only two romance options for straight men, put women in charge of pretty much everything) you'll never make these people happy. You can always count on them to find something to read sexism into and then complain about it. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah the walk is absurd.

 

I really wanted a pimped out dress.

 

My PC swinging her hips from side to side when walking through the mud is absurd. Can you even walk like that in mud? Wouldn't you just hurt yourself?

 

Her getting preened with eyeliner, dress and a beautiful hairstyle for an Orlesian ball is not.

Yeah, and when's the offer from Vivienne to get better clothes bearing fruit?     <insert DLC remark here>

 

 

Proof that no matter what you do for this crowd (remove brothels, make clothes bulkier, make it impossible to strip down, remove fanservice shots, remove sex from one of the only two romance options for straight men) you'll never make these people happy. You can always count on them to find something to read sexism into and then complain about it. 

 

 

As one of "those people," I think I have the right to speak for myself.

 

Never asked for bulkier clothes.  Armor that a warrior would actually use, yes.  I haven't seen anyone demand that the clothes be super bulky.

Never asked for the removal of brothels and I honestly have yet to see that request on the forums by anyone.

Never asked to not wear underwear, though admittedly I don't give a crap one way or the other.  I also haven't seen anyone ask either.

Never asked for sex to be removed for the male romances, but again, I have yet to see anyone ask/demand that sex scenes be removed for straight men.

 

The fan service shots are pointless and serve no purpose.  So I can't claim I'll miss those.  If that's a true gripe of yours, then I can't say I harbor any sympathy.  Plus, you can see Cassandra topeless in her romance, which is the furthest BioWare has gone yet.  I have yet to see any outrage or anger over that on the forums from "those people."  If anything, it's been parents that are claiming concern for their kids that have been doing the protesting.

 

I don't find the walk sexist.  Stupid, and badly done yes, but not sexist to me.  I can't speak for anyone else though.

 

Blanket statements are bad, okay?  Not everyone falls into this nice easy-to-hate package.  

[FKA_Servo]

Proof that no matter what you do for this crowd (remove brothels, make clothes bulkier, make it impossible to strip down, remove fanservice shots, remove sex from one of the only two romance options for straight men, put women in charge of pretty much everything) you'll never make these people happy. You can always count on them to find something to read sexism into and then complain about it. 

 

This is a ridiculous statement. No one asked for any of those things, at least not with a straight face.

[Pasquale1234]

I think the thing people are forgetting here is that the animations for male and female characters likely has nothing to do with biowares own preconceptions and instead everything to do with thier workflow.

See animating a human body to look realistic by hand is next to impossible, the human body has so many small inflections and nuances in its own body language that it's no wonder some default stock animations don't conform to everyone's view of how thier character should walk.

The only real way bioware could do it properly would be through motion capture, though that is very resource intense and requires a lot of cleaning up afterwards.

This has nothing to do IMO with feminism, masculinity or gender, it's just quick animation work for a massive game.

People have read too much into this.

Making the female animations "sexy to my eyes" was entirely intentional.

This was posted on the old forums prior to the release of DA2.
 


There are a lot of other characteristics that could have been portrayed in designing the walk - like confidence, determination, courage, and the like - but "sexy to my eyes" was apparently more important.

(I use the entire phrase "sexy to my eyes", because sexy is in the eye of the beholder)

There were plenty of complaints about Hawke's walk / run animation after DA2, but they chose to use the same one in DAI. It does look like they might have smoothed out the run a bit, but otherwise it looks the same to me.

[King Dragonlord]

This is a ridiculous statement. No one asked for any of those things, at least not with a straight face.

 

I've certainly seen them defended or praised. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I've certainly seen them defended or praised. 

Where on the BSN?  May I see how this was done?  In what context?  Oh and I don't want a summation of your version of events.  I would like a link to this, please.  

 

Forgive me if I'm not inclined a series of stereotypes as fact, but I think you understand.  I would expect you to ask the same of me if I was stereotyping to such an extreme level.