73 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

The Black City is NOT always equidistant relative to the rest of the Fade.  It's only equidistant in the sense that you can't get any closer or further from it than your entry point.  That bit of lore from DA:O has been contradicted twice:
 
In DA:A, when the darkspawn "First" pulls you into the Fade, you should notice that the Black City is MUCH closer than normal.  
 
And again in DA:I, the Black City is practically close enough to touch, as Solas puts it.  Once again, the magic involved with opening the gateway to the Fade involved the Blight (Warden mages).
 
I would theorize that Blight Magic, if such a thing really exists, can draw one closer to the source of the Blight in the Fade.  Hence the the Black City being closer than normal in these instances.

You can't get closer to the Black City while dreaming, but you can when you are actually physically in the Fade, as happens at Adamant.

[Angarma]

I've had similar ideas tying The Black City to Arlathan, so I'm liking some of the points you make.

Though there is mention, I believe, that the Fade and Thedas were once one. That should be considered.

 

As well:

 

Solas describes Arlathan as "spires of crystal, twining through the branches. Palaces floating among the clouds."

According to "Children of Andraste," Andraste had a continuing line of descendants, female primarily, through Viviel.

The Ruined Temple's mountain is conveniently lined with a large Lyrium deposit.

From Justice and Codex entries, we learn that Lyrium "sings" and draws spirits to it.

It is said that the Profane "feasted upon the gods."

 

Another line of thought then, is that Lyrium is the blood/essence of the Elven 'gods'; exhibited as such through Andraste's grave.

That is if the similarities between Flemeth, Viviel and Andraste connect truly- and Andraste was a vessel for Mythal.

[Lordwarallied]

AWESOME theory by the way. But lets put some things in light.

 

Awakening does show several facts about the black city. Things in the real world are not the only things that the fade can show. And from what I remember it shows what PEOPLE felt, dream and think about. not places per se. I may be wrong tho. The magisters and DA:A shows that its possible to enter the fade physically I mean thats what this whole DA: I is about. 

 

Also, Solas, the old elves of the temple of mythal told us many things: The magisters, Tevinter, the humans arent the one in cause of the DESTRUCTION of arlanthan. that were his words. he said they themselves did that. So in one side we talk destruction, not a still fully built city. On the other hand, He said directly that the humans were not in cause.

 

Many other factors comes in aswell: Fact that David gaider said the elven lore is mostly inaccurate, since they are remnant of pieces gathered together and interpreted. Solas and the Old elven guardian mentioned that the Dread wolf did not deal the old gods like that, if at all. Its also mentioned that he looks out after his people (according to him) and he is also friend with an elven god. We dont know if there is only one hes friend with, what else we dont know, why was he in slumber etc..

 

Also the Old God arent already tainted when they are found. they are found to be tainted. The architect says also that HE TRIED to make Urthmiel a disciple but it made it an archdemon instead.

 

I like also you recongnize the two things The elder one says about the black city being already black and golden later one. We also know nothin of the fade pre blight. The dreamers, why Tevinter believed in Andreste later on. (the reason why the magisters went there in the first place) Corypheus said he DID see a throne, and that there is power there. 

 

Later on a found a new codex entry that talks about a city completely disapearing (including a huge chunk of ground) There was also other stuff about it, sounds like black city to me. 

[SG-17]

Well to anyone who got away, seeing Arlathan sink would certainly seem like its destruction.

[King Killoth]

you bring up a lot of good points and ideas..I like the idea of Flemmeth being Andraste.. makes a lot of sense..and nice profile pic

[Little Princess Peach]

what if the blight is the maker him self?

what don't know what form the gods can take, what if it's his blood or something that tainted everything?

 

Think about it what if someone attacked the maker, what if the maker him self was the evil one that tainted the Black city with his own blood?

For all we know he could of been the very first true Darkspwan

[spinachdiaper]

What if Andraste was one of Flemmeth's daughters?

[Ashagar]

Man and other races are more than capable of evil with out making the maker out to be a evil deity, I rather like the themes that it was hubris which brought down the elven and dwarven empires and that it was the hubis of men who brought about the darkspawn.

 

As for Andraste she lived and died long before Flemmeth was even born so baring Alexis's time magic which only works because of the breach it would be impossble for Andraste to be flemeth's daughter.

[Clockwork_Wings]

AWESOME theory by the way. But lets put some things in light.

Awakening does show several facts about the black city. Things in the real world are not the only things that the fade can show. And from what I remember it shows what PEOPLE felt, dream and think about. not places per se. I may be wrong tho. The magisters and DA:A shows that its possible to enter the fade physically I mean thats what this whole DA: I is about.

Also, Solas, the old elves of the temple of mythal told us many things: The magisters, Tevinter, the humans arent the one in cause of the DESTRUCTION of arlanthan. that were his words. he said they themselves did that. So in one side we talk destruction, not a still fully built city. On the other hand, He said directly that the humans were not in cause.

Many other factors comes in aswell: Fact that David gaider said the elven lore is mostly inaccurate, since they are remnant of pieces gathered together and interpreted. Solas and the Old elven guardian mentioned that the Dread wolf did not deal the old gods like that, if at all. Its also mentioned that he looks out after his people (according to him) and he is also friend with an elven god. We dont know if there is only one hes friend with, what else we dont know, why was he in slumber etc..

Also the Old God arent already tainted when they are found. they are found to be tainted. The architect says also that HE TRIED to make Urthmiel a disciple but it made it an archdemon instead.

I like also you recongnize the two things The elder one says about the black city being already black and golden later one. We also know nothin of the fade pre blight. The dreamers, why Tevinter believed in Andreste later on. (the reason why the magisters went there in the first place) Corypheus said he DID see a throne, and that there is power there.

Later on a found a new codex entry that talks about a city completely disapearing (including a huge chunk of ground) There was also other stuff about it, sounds like black city to me.

Building on this, if the fade is what you make of it, perhaps it was empty and black because Corypheus didn't really expect anyone to be there?

[Vroom Vroom]

Cory says in DA2 when you wake him up that it was black before they reached it.

 

I'd love a DLC where you visit the black city, even if it does raise more questions.

Same here. 

 

I actually expected

Spoiler

our final confrontation with Cory to take place in the Black City. I felt like the plot was begging for it with all of its mentioning of it.

 

[fizzypop]

That is actually a pretty decent theory. I like it.

[fizzypop]

Same here. 

 

I actually expected

Spoiler

our final confrontation with Cory to take place in the Black City. I felt like the plot was begging for it with all of its mentioning of it.

 

That would have been 1000000% cooler than what we got.

[phaonica]

If you can see the Black City from the Fade and see that it is black, would you have been able to see the Golden City from the Fade before and see that it was golden? If so, it couldn't have been black for very long before the Magisters arrived there because you'd think someone would notice.

[phaonica]

Same here. 

 

I actually expected

Spoiler

our final confrontation with Cory to take place in the Black City. I felt like the plot was begging for it with all of its mentioning of it.

 

 

Me too.

Spoiler

I was soooooo hoping that there would be more questions and answers about the Black City... but that didn't really happen.

[Vroom Vroom]

Me too.

Spoiler

I was soooooo hoping that there would be more questions and answers about the Black City... but that didn't really happen.

I'm actually starting to question whether or not the Black City/Golden City ever existed because

Spoiler

during the final fight Cory shouts something along the lines of "Dumat, if you were ever real, help me!" He also raved about having walked the halls of the Golden City, not the Black City.

 

If Cory had truly been to the Black City and seen the Maker's empty throne wouldn't he believe that the Maker or at least the Old Gods were real? Granted, I suppose the Maker's throne could have been metaphorical for the Golden City just being the place where the Maker is supposed to have resided.

 

I'm starting to question Cory's sanity, something I probably should have done since the beginning because he's a madman madthing. 

 

His comments during the final fight were interesting to say the least.

[phaonica]

I'm actually starting to question whether or not the Black City/Golden City ever existed because

Spoiler

during the final fight Cory shouts something along the lines of "Dumat, if you were ever real, help me!" He also raved about having walked the halls of the Golden City, not the Black City.

 

If Cory had truly been to the Black City and seen the Maker's empty throne wouldn't he believe that the Maker or at least the Old Gods were real? Granted, I suppose the Maker's throne could have been metaphorical for the Golden City just being the place where the Maker is supposed to have resided.

 

I'm starting to question Cory's sanity, something I probably should have done since the beginning because he's a madman madthing. 

 

His comments during the final fight were interesting to say the least.

 

Yeah, it does make you wonder if the city was ever Golden at all.

 

Spoiler

And yeah, I thought it had pretty much been established that the Old Gods were, in some form, real and in contact with the Old God Cult Magisters from their underground prisons. It makes sense that Dumat wouldn't answer now, but Corypheus should believe that Dumat is real....

And it seems like if anything would make you believe that the Maker was real, it would be being blighted for breaking into his house.

[herkles]

I don't think trusting the words of cory as proof of anything is a good idea.

[electrifried]

I think especially DA:I very much supports that theory. Are you, as the Inquisitor, the Herald of Andraste? No, but that is who the people outside your inner circle believe you are, no matter how often you say that you're just a normal person who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. It's the impression people have from their own perspective, which writes history.

 

This was also the case in DA:O and DA2. No matter what bastard you were in those games, you are still referred to as "The Hero of Ferelden" in DA:O, and "The Champion" in DA2.

 

And funny enough, isn't the "truth" in real life not also colored by those who write about it? There is very little known about the heroics of the Gauls against the Roman empire, since, the Romans mostly won, and were the ones who got to write epic reports about it to keep the homefront happy. The stories from the Gaul side are mostly lost. But, neither ever really told the truth.

Exactly! I think they really drove the point home in the cutscene with Cassandra attempting to recount what happened in the Fade. She acknowledges it's just her interpretation and wants to make it as accurate as possible...and yet people will always look at it in a different way.

 

I believe part of what the Chantry says and the Elven lore are half true, perhaps they were both about the same thing once but they diverged at some point in time and became their own religions. I think there is banter and dialogue/codexes in the game that hint towards both of them having a pretty solid basis for what they stand for. Yet they are now corrupted by people. And Solas insists that the elven gods were not gods at all either which makes sense when you look at the tone of how the different religions are portrayed in the game. I really hope all this is explained in a side expansion and soon!

[Clockwork_Wings]

I'm actually starting to question whether or not the Black City/Golden City ever existed because

Spoiler

during the final fight Cory shouts something along the lines of "Dumat, if you were ever real, help me!" He also raved about having walked the halls of the Golden City, not the Black City.

 

If Cory had truly been to the Black City and seen the Maker's empty throne wouldn't he believe that the Maker or at least the Old Gods were real? Granted, I suppose the Maker's throne could have been metaphorical for the Golden City just being the place where the Maker is supposed to have resided.

 

I'm starting to question Cory's sanity, something I probably should have done since the beginning because he's a madman madthing. 

 

His comments during the final fight were interesting to say the least.

 

 

Building on this, if the fade is what you make of it, perhaps it was empty and black because Corypheus didn't really expect anyone to be there?

[Ziegrif]

Real or not I want to go there and steal everything not nailed down.

[Rifneno]

Arlathan is the Primeval Thaig.

Andraste is the OGB of the first archdemon.

Andraste body-hopped to Hessarian, his "mercy killing" was more of a "die before you realize what happened and tell anyone".

[MrMrPendragon]

Avernus says the taint is drawing him towards the Black City when he dreams. So the secrets of the taint is there somewhere. Meaning whoever made the taint also had a hand in the creation of the Golden City.

 

I believe the Black City is physically inside the Fade, except it's unreachable, or the taint (a being of pure magical energy) drives spirits away.

 

Everything in the fade is a reflection of the real world, but a reflection that's been interpreted by spirits. When Solas was looking at Ostagar in the Fade, he saw two interpretations  - one with evil Loghain, and one with good Loghain.

 

If the Black City is a reflection then someone must be either dreaming it or a spirit is constantly shaping it. Now it can't be in a dream because we just saw it in the Raw Fade, where it's not anybody's dream, so that leaves a spirit shaping it. But if things in the fade are just interpretations of the spirits, then it wouldn't have the taint, a magic foreign to spirits, in it. The taint that draws mages like Avernus to the Black City whenever they dream. Not to mention spirits can't make REAL things. 

 

The taint in the Black City is real, therefore the Black City is also real, meaning it's there physically. It can't be affected by the changes the Fade does because it's not part of the Fade, rather the Fade is just its setting, but it is not subject to the laws of its nature.

[angelofsol]

My thoughts.... The Maker is the nameless Sun God of Elvhen lore.  Therefore Mythal is the "bride" of the Maker.

Andraste got the soul of Mythal before Flemeth.  Therefore Andraste is the "bride of the Maker".

Flemeth is a descendant of Andraste.  Wouldn't surprise me if Morrigan is too, potentially a descendant of Flemeth.

The Elvhen "gods" rose up against the Sun God... aka the Maker.  In the process Mythal was murdered.  This is likely when the Blight began... could be the blood of "gods" or the anger of the maker against them made manifest... who knows.  I have half a dozen thoughts after reading other people's theories on things and no firm belief I hold to on the blight just yet.  The Sun God/Maker upset over the warring of his children and his wife's death took off.... think of it as leaving unruly kids to orchestrate their own destruction (letting them have their way until they realize that it isn't so great to have their own way).  Likely Fen'Harel got fed up with what the Elvhen 'gods" were doing and having been very close to Mythal decided he was going to lock up these petty and unruly Gods.  

So he worked his magic and the Elvhen Gods were banished.  I wouldn't be surprised in one group of them were banished underground, likely having vested part of their beings in dragons who thus became the Tevinter Old Gods.  Likely the first darkspawn were their Elvhen followers/slaves.  Don't know if they good gods were the ones banished underground or if it was actually the Forgotten Ones.

The Elvhen empire was destroyed by the previous warring of their gods and the subsequent slave revolt so Tevinter had easy pickings.

Whatever gods were underground they started being worshiped by Tevinter.  Using the Tevinter Magisters they are trying to approach the Maker to get him to undue things and set things right, or maybe they're seeking the other half of the Elvhen pantheon... to set things right?  For revenge?  Maybe they're thinking that Fen'Harel did this all to take over and that he's living large on the Maker's throne and they are really seeking him out to try to get this all undone.  Regardless the Tevinter Magisters don't really know the Old God's real motivations, they're being used and sold a story to secure their co-operation.

The Magisters get there and realize they've been misinformed but whatever is there it doesn't go well for them.  They get thrown down.  Don't know if they're actually tainted there or if they get tainted after being thrown down.  If so the taint/blight might seriously be caught up in whatever is keeping these two groups of Elvhen "gods" seperate and in their respective places.  

We know that a "song" is being caught up with the blight.  Flemeth often talks about a "dance" and in DAI she says that as long as it sings they dance.  Seems to really be a curse from the Maker or an intrinsic part of whatever Fen'Harel did to keep the two groups apart.

I'm guessing the darkspawn seek the "Old God Dragons" not because of the song (since the dragons aren't tainted until the darkspawn reach them) but because they're from slaves of those Old Gods and they're instictually seeking their masters.

Mythal via Andraste is trying to save everyone but she's foiled yet again, betrayed, and well... surprise! Murdered.  However, what Andraste talks about with the black city being defiled and the origin of the darkspawn is taken by those around her to mean the Tevinter Magisters as it was more current (or politicized at that time), but that's not what she meant at all.

The Tevinter Chantry isn't entirely wrong about darkspawn... darkspawn were around before the Tevinter Magisters breeched the city.

Have no clue if I'm on the right track with any of this.  We really need more info.  I hope we get it in time.

[LadyWench]

I've thought that Arlathan was analogous to the Golden City since Origins, with respect to how time, different versions, cultural appropriation, and mistranslations warp what actually happens, and it was nice to see some hints in DA:I that confirmed some of my suspicions.

 

I do think that Andraste was more likely to be hero mage than akin to a deity. No more the "Bride of the Maker" than the Inquisitor is a literal "Herald of Andraste." Some great theories floating around on here that are going to make my head explode! XD

 

To be fair, I also liked the idea of Flemeth and, therefore, her daughters (including Morrigan) being descended from Andraste, but a codex entry concerning her biological lineage states that only girls have been born of Andraste's daughters, a purely female line. The fact that Kieran is a boy (that Morrigan can potentially have a son, whether or not you did the OGB deed in your respective playthrough) would imply that something in one of those theories is in doubt. But, nothing set in stone.

 

Of course, as many have mentioned and I fully agree, this game and the whole DA series have been all about the "oh, you THINK you know the true story, but..." moments and I love it.

 

MY biggest question is still where does Sandal fit into all this??? It's implied in 2 that there is a connection to Flemeth...I dare not hope he's actually the Maker returned, right?

 

Speculation is fun! Can't wait for future installments to further flesh out what I hope will be the ACTUAL history!

[angelofsol]

If I'm anywhere close to right on Morrigan's lineage I think Keiran being a boy likely had something to do with the DR.  Don't know if the soul of Urthemial is male or female but the Old Gods are all male.  If they're just shells for old Elvhen "god" souls the souls could be either gender.  Urthemial could actually be male or female and the resulting factor was the gender of the dragon.  If the Old God dragons aren't attached to the Elvhen pantheon in any way then it could simply be because of the dragon's gender.  On the fence about this one and I could personally go either way.

Where does Sandal fit into it all?  There is so much good speculation out there that I have no clue.  At this point the myraid of theories all seem to be viable.  A forgotten one?  An actual GOD of the Dwarves?  Toting around an Elvhen soul himself?  An OGB?  The Maker in disguise?  Maybe the first magus dwarf?!  Who knows?!