77 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

Fine.

 

No.  It does not.  There is only one game clock.

 

Again - no. "Game Clock" isn't even a real concept within the term "dps". Time is time. The game is a single player game, and as said: For it to have multiple timelines, you need multiple point of views. We don't got any other. 

You can't make up a fictional perspective based off of "Game Time", which isn't real. The enemy, or your teammates for that matter, does not perceive or see anything. You do. And for you, 8 seconds is 8 seconds.

 

Sure, we can drag the argument "But then if you pause you do no dps :< :<". Which is true. However, that argument is grasping after straw. If I turn off the game, throw my computer out the window and drive over it with my car; am I still doing no dps? -- No. Because the game isn't in motion. Neither is it when it is paused. It is, however, when you are able to move, even if the enemies only move at a 10% speed. 

 

 

By that argument, everyone else's DPS has decreased to 1/100th of normal

 

Yes! That's my point. Which is why it is a dps decrease if we want to be anal about it. 

 

No matter how much you want to, or try to, you do not get any sort of damage increase. Your attack speed is the same, your damage multipliers is the same and the damage that the same amount of damage. You do not more than than usual, regardless of how this fictional perspective. As I said before, this ability is programmed as 2 abilities. Not 1. If you are in the character using it, we get this weird effect and everything slows down. Cool -- but efficiently not increasing damage or dps. If we are not controlling the character, it becomes an attack speed multiplier. 

 

Sure, if you want to think it increases your attack speed as well -- go ahead. But that's not what we are discussing here. If we both start playing at point, and we do the exact same thing, only I do not use FoL and you do, I will have had the enemies cleared out faster. A la: higher dps. 

 

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Again, this is not related to this thread at all. We can discuss FoL as much as anybody want, but FoL isn't even the dps of Tempest. That's the focus ability. Without it, Tempest is no where near Assassin in terms of dps. Regardless of how you want to perceive FoL. 

So, again, unless somebody want to dance this unnecessary dance any further; let's stop. We already got a thread which turned into a "This depend how you define seconds herpderp" - which is beyond ridiculous. 

 

'kay?

[Rynas]

Fine.

 

Again - no. "Game Clock" isn't even a real concept within the term "dps". Time is time. The game is a single player game, and as said: For it to have multiple timelines, you need multiple point of views. We don't got any other. 

You can't make up a fictional perspective based off of "Game Time", which isn't real. The enemy, or your teammates for that matter, does not perceive or see anything. You do. And for you, 8 seconds is 8 seconds.

 

If game time isn't "real," then you have no basis for putting anything in the denominator of DPS, and you have no way of calculating DPS for anyone.

 

The fact that pausing the game does not affect your DPS is indeed relevant.  Pausing is a full stop.  FoL is a slowing down.  The only thing that matters for DPS is what passes in game time.  Otherwise, you are arguing that your DPS decreases when you're not playing the game.

 

There are not "multiple timelines."  That's exactly the point.  There is a single timeline, and how you perceive it depends on whether you're controlling the FoL character or not.  When you're controlling a character who has FoL active, 1 second of real time = 0.01 seconds of game time.  When you are not, 1 second of real time = 1 second of game time.  When you pause the game, 1 second of real time = 0 seconds of game time.  It's not that hard to understand.

 

If I turn off the game, throw my computer out the window and drive over it with my car; am I still doing no dps? -- No. Because the game isn't in motion.

 

 

Yes, that is exactly the point.  Zero seconds are passing in game time.

 

On the one hand, you are arguing that real time is what goes in the denominator for DPS, by saying your DPS during FoL is Damage / 8 seconds (rather than Damage / 0.08 seconds).  On the other hand, you are arguing that game time is what matters, by saying DPS isn't affected by pausing or quitting the game because the game "isn't in motion."  This is a contradiction.

 

If we both start playing at point, and we do the exact same thing, only I do not use FoL and you do, I will have had the enemies cleared out faster.

 

 

No, because if this were possible (e.g. in multiplayer), you would perceive me doing damage 100x faster than you for 0.08 seconds.  Either that, or you'd move 100x slower for 8 seconds (and be really frustrated during that time).  On top of that, even in real time (which, again, is irrelevant for DPS), you'll only have them cleared out faster if they don't move, don't turn to face you, and don't have the potential to kill you.

 

Again, you can think about FoL as increasing your DPS by 100x or decreasing everyone else's DPS by 100x.  Either way, your target is taking 100x more damage than it would if FoL were not active.  That is a massive increase.

 

The discussion is entirely relevant to this thread because we're discussing a DPS-enhancing ability.  Personally, I think that MoD makes Assassins better in group than Tempests where pure DPS is concerned, but I'm open to hearing counterarguments.  But calling FoL a DPS decrease is entirely wrong.

[Matth85]

There are not "multiple timelines."  That's exactly the point.  There is a single timeline, and how you perceive

 

And you perceive it as either a slow down, or a attack multiplier. You do, under no circumstances, perceive or see both of these. What do that tell you?

 

When you are not, 1 second of real time = 1 second of game time.

 

Game time is a fictional time setting made within games to enhance 2 features: Day/Night cycles and time-based events. 

This is neither, and this game time of yours do not exist here. Unless a secondary point of view comes in play, or you can have Sera shoot in real-time and you slow down at the same time, there is simply one perspective, perception and view of this: yours. 

 

On the one hand, you are arguing that real time is what goes in the denominator for DPS, by saying your DPS during FoL is Damage / 8 seconds (rather than Damage / 0.08 seconds).  On the other hand, you are arguing that game time is what matters, by saying DPS isn't affected by pausing or quitting the game because the game "isn't in motion."  This is a contradiction.

 

You are mistaken. I am merely putting it into context. There is a huge difference in:

A) Playing a game at 90% slow down speed

B ) Pausing the whole game.

 

But, sure. If you want to be anal about it; It's a dps loss in pause as well. This is not a contradiction on my part, merely you grasping at straws.

 

Again, you can think about FoL as increasing your DPS by 100x or decreasing everyone else's DPS by 100x.  Either way, your target is taking 100x more damage than it would if FoL were not active.  That is a massive increase.

 

I don't get that logic. But allright. Let's say we split the world into real-time and game time, as you so want to. So what?

You use FoL, I do not.

We play for hours straight racing through 5 maps.

I finish in 3 hours and 30 minutes. You finish in 4 hours and 15 minutes.

I finish killing 200 enemies. You finish killing 140.

 

At what point can you look at that and go "But i did more dps than you!".. No.. no you didn't. You slowed down time, which made for excellent survivability. It did not, however, enhance your damage. 

 

But calling FoL a DPS decrease is entirely wrong.

 

I have no problem seeing why people think it is a dps increase. However, it simply isn't correct. Not because I say so, but because the programming and common sense says so. There are no multiple timelines in our world. No game-time. Time can only be perceived via a point of view from a sentient being. You are the only being of that qualifications playing the game. The dragon you fight can't sense time. Hence there is only 1 time -- ours. The only way for FoL on you to be a dps increase is if:

1) Another perspective/point of view is present. 

2) You are able to have both effects on the same screen. Which in itself would be a paradox: One screen slows down, the other sees sped up -- but both follows the same timeline. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

 

I don't get that logic. But allright. Let's say we split the world into real-time and game time, as you so want to. So what?

You use FoL, I do not.

We play for hours straight racing through 5 maps.

I finish in 3 hours and 30 minutes. You finish in 4 hours and 15 minutes.

I finish killing 200 enemies. You finish killing 140.

 

See, this is where you get confused constantly. Real time is irrelevant. If it worked like you claim it does, pausing and going to eat a pizza would decrease the DPS of the class you play. That's a ridiculous notion. The only sensible way of looking at it is to look at encounters. An assassin fights for 15 seconds, real time. A tempest fights for 15 seconds, real time. But because the tempest uses FoL, they can add 9 seconds to the fight which only they can perceive, so they do 24 seconds worth of damage in 15.5 seconds worth of game time. Meanwhile, assassins do 15 seconds of damage in 15 seconds of game time. If the superhero Flash attacks his opponent with his superspeed fifteen times in half a second, wouldn't you say he's attacking more times per second than someone hitting once per second, even if from his perspective he's only hitting once per what "feels like a second"?

 

As someone said in another thread about this, the only way it's not a DPS increase is if you're late for an appointment in real life and have to finish the encounter faster in real time.

[Matth85]

As someone said in another thread about this, the only way it's not a DPS increase is if you're late for an appointment in real life and have to finish the encounter faster in real time.

 

 

Which is the essence of it all.

Real time is the only time that is relevant. It's not me being confused at all. 

 

If it worked like you claim it does, pausing and going to eat a pizza would decrease the DPS of the class you play

 

I don't "claim" it works any way. I am telling you how the world works, which should be blatantly obvious - to be fair.

I did not say pausing caused a dps loss. By pausing all motion is stopped, hence the battle is paused. Paused means the encounter stops. When the encounter stops, dps is no longer calculated. Just as me turning off the computer. However, 90% slowdown is not paused. 

 

----------------

 

Your example is a good one. You spent 20 seconds to end that encounter, the assassin spent 15. That means the dps of the team, and you, is higher. It doesn't matter if you theoretically do 9 second dps worth in 1 second -- the fight ends faster. 

 

It's not a matter of misunderstanding or being confused -- it's about being realistic. Unless you live in the world, have a secondary point of view or manage to make a time paradox out of it -- it's how it works.

 

Now, I get it. People want it to be a speed up. Heck, it's implied it does thanks to Sera. But that's not how it works -- regardless how we want to judge dps. Which is all this is; Us arguing about when the term "DPS" start and where it ends. Looking past that, and into pure damage and real time speed, it becomes a rather one sided argument. 

 

Though we are not going anywhere with this little dance. I'll take my leave now. I am not here to change your opinion or perception of an ability in the game. Those who read this can judge by themselves: Which dps is more important - the real time one, which counts your second, or the fictional game time one, which you play Flash? 

 

It's just as the difference is between a roleplayer and a meta gamer. Both play the same game, while they see different values in it. FoL is not a dps increase, nor a damage increase in any shape or form. The only way to pretend it is, is to make up a fictional timeline within the game itself, and tell yourself the hours you sit in front of the PC is just side effect of the game time happening inside the game, which you can slow down. If that is your fancy -- go ahead. 

 

-----

 

Though I must thank you, both of you, for now throwing in "That depends how you define 'seconds'". I was preparing to facepalm again, but was positively surprised!

[Zenthar Aseth]

The "secondary point of view" is the game engine. The engine which all the NPCs and your PC are slaves of. That engine says that no time passes, so enemies don't move and don't use their abilities that they normally would, nor do your allies. Because of that, it is a DPS increase in game-time. You get more done during game seconds, which are all that matter, because it's what everything inside the game cares about, not real world seconds.

[Fidite Nemini]

 

 

 

 

Not my gameplay. But it appears dragon kill speedruns are already measured below five seconds.

[Zenthar Aseth]

 

 

Not my gameplay. But it appears dragon kill speedruns are already measured below five seconds.

That's 3 seconds if you count from the moment when damage is being done, which is how the "20 seconds" is gotten from the assassin video. 

 

If that's legit, then it seems Tempest wins. 

[MadDemiurg]

Well TC + Pincushion is obviously super broken, as if TC alone wasn't enough. That's +200% dmg on the last strike and x2 damage on average for TC. He doesn't even have HB mastercrafts which would've made it even worse (more hits). You can see that he starts off at smth like 4k dmg, which is fine for 300% damage attack and endgame gear. Final strike is 12k though. That's 8k on average, 42 * 8k = 336k, so this is enough damage. Looks legit and it isn't even maxed out.

[Matth85]

Given that's pretty amazing -- you can not judge a class based off of their focus ability. Just because of the uneven balance of the focus abilities. (Artificer being archer only, and the one for Assassin is just a mass stealth).

If we exclude the 1-time-every-other-encounter-ability, Assassin wins out in the long run. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Given that's pretty amazing -- you can not judge a class based off of their focus ability. Just because of the uneven balance of the focus abilities. (Artificer being archer only, and the one for Assassin is just a mass stealth).

If we exclude the 1-time-every-other-encounter-ability, Assassin wins out in the long run. 

Focus isn't that hard to come by, though, so you could at least say that against bosses Tempest wins. I don't see why you couldn't judge classes based on their focus abilities just because the other specializations get the short end of the stick there. If anything, that makes it an even more important thing to consider, since an assassin can't replicate it by using his own focus ability.

 

The DPS-king-of-the-hill battle gets more complicated if we talk about normal encounters, because while assassins have better single target DPS, tempests can do crazy damage with a ) freezing everyone around them allowing for combos and b ) mercykilling+KP. So it seems situational which will do more DPS.

[MadDemiurg]

If we're talking fast clear times, aoe wins the speed run on trash mobs. For bosses you can have TC ready for every such encounter. Obviously it's not worth using on every nug you meet. If you just consider a theoretical situation where both Assasin and Tempest attack some dummy target Assasin may win out on dmg with time -> infinity. However for practical purposes Tempest is imo more efficient. I despise focus abilities in this game and never use any of them though, so I used to run with assasin for a rogue. i don't think this is optimal however.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Would be nice to know what kind of equipment that archer Tempest used, how maximized it was. 30% damage TC ring? Etc.

[MadDemiurg]

Assuming a bow with 200 base dmg, 100% attack and 100% crit damage base (200% crit damage and 250 base damage with tonic) that's:

 

250 * 2 (attack) * 3 (crit dmg) * 3 (300% hit) * 1.2 (flanking) = 5400 per hit. That's actually more than he does (about 4k), and these stats are easily reachable with endgame crafting. This is without TC ring. Note that without the tonic that would be 2880 per hit only, almost 2 times less. The tonic is obviously broken, I don't know what were they thinking when they've put these stats on it.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Assuming a bow with 200 base dmg, 100% attack and 100% crit damage base (200% crit damage and 250 base damage with tonic) that's:

 

250 * 2 (attack) * 3 (crit dmg) * 3 (300% hit) * 1.2 (flanking) = 5400 per hit. That's actually more than he does (about 4k), and these stats are easily reachable with endgame crafting. This is without TC ring. Note that without the tonic that would be 2880 per hit only, almost 2 times less. The tonic is obviously broken, I don't know what were they thinking when they've put these stats on it.

So does TC take armor penetration into account, etc? Wouldn't it do even more damage if you used, say, throwing blades before TC? And if you drank another potion, adding further 15% damage thanks to Killer's Alchemy? Throwing Blades might net you Fury of the Storm damage bonus as well for 10%, and so on -- could probably get really crazy numbers if it was optimized.

[konnect13123]

 Both spec's can output stupid amounts of damage, but overall I will have to put tempest above assassin because you cannot dismiss TC even without the exploit. Thousand Cuts is also AOE. Also like another gentleman posted, you can do shatter combo's for up to 10k with frost flask, and anything around 50% health is dominated by deathblow spam within fireflask. But you can reliably kill off 2-3 enemies with an assassin before a tempest could finish off one within lighting flask. In the same scenario a tempest could use TC* or use frost flask to freeze all enemies that are close with an AOE dagger then follow up with a detonation with twin fangs. 

 

 Both spec's are fantastic with different play styles this debate will never have a winner. 

[MadDemiurg]

Enemy armor scales poorly into lategame plus you can have 50% AP if just out of stealth. Overall armor wouldn't have a major impact here. And dragons have crappy armor even compared to other mobs. And yeah. you can also stack killer's alchemy and all that crap. And a flanking build would prolly do more damage, albeit situationally. But I don't really see the point since when you hit 350k dmg your damage is infinite for the game's purposes.

[konnect13123]

So it seems situational which will do more DPS.

I agree

[Zenthar Aseth]

Enemy armor scales poorly into lategame plus you can have 50% AP if just out of stealth. Overall armor wouldn't have a major impact here. And dragons have crappy armor even compared to other mobs. And yeah. you can also stack killer's alchemy and all that crap. And a flanking build would prolly do more damage, albeit situationally. But I don't really see the point since when you hit 350k dmg your damage is infinite for the game's purposes.

It'd definitely just be a curiosity most of the time, but since TC is AoE if there's multiple enemies, maximizing it might be worth it in those cases.

[TheStrand221]

Given that's pretty amazing -- you can not judge a class based off of their focus ability. Just because of the uneven balance of the focus abilities. (Artificer being archer only, and the one for Assassin is just a mass stealth).

If we exclude the 1-time-every-other-encounter-ability, Assassin wins out in the long run. 

 

"If we exclude the ability that makes tempest damage greater than assassin damage, then assassin damage is greater."

 

Brilliant contribution.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Yeah, that is a bit bizarre. It's like saying "let's exclude Mark of Death, because of the uneven balance of the last abilities in the skill trees." Both MoD and TC are exclusive to their respective classes, so when comparing said classes they should obviously not be excluded.

 

If you want to exclude TC from the equation, then at best it becomes "Tempest has better DPS in bossfights, but let's talk about fights other than that." Which is fair enough. Still not sure which really comes out ahead in trash mob DPS, though, because of Tempest's freeze, FoL and FoF and Assassin's awesome passives, MoD and HB. It's probably so close to even, or too situational, to really decide the winner of the chicken dinner. Both are great.

[MadDemiurg]

For thrash mob fights it's neither tbh. There's only so much health these have, So while Assasin may be killing one per hit he won't be killing all of them in one hit.

[Matth85]

"If we exclude the ability that makes tempest damage greater than assassin damage, then assassin damage is greater."

 

Brilliant contribution.

Your a smart cookie!

 

No. Stop being ridiculous. My conclusion for not basing a class performance on one ability that can only be used rarely is because it is unnecessary and near broken. Even then it falls short to Assassin in the long run. 

 

Was that hard to grasp? Probably. I will give you a second to think about it.

 

Btw; Comparing an ability like MoD to a focus ability is.. odd. I am not saying MoD isn't blatantly broken itself -- but that's like comparing apples to cars. Why would you?

[l3loodpimp]

   Just saying, what make tempest great (unless bioware patch it) is Flask of Fire. Not Flask of Lightning, or Thousand Blade. All rogue spec are great, and broken in their own way if played properly.

   It's up to the OP too see which one he has more fun to play with, Tempest, Assassin or Artificer (bit more complex than the previous two IMO).

[EngineerEd]

FoF not consuming focus is admitted to be a bug by Bioware.

 

The whole argument about FoL increasing DPS by game-time and not by player-perceived time is true.... but still not a huge boon to DPS. Probably less than FoF in the overall scheme of things. Let's say in flask of Fire you can use like, 5 twin fangs from a flanking position. Lets say in Flask of Lightning you can use twin fangs, and maybe even death blow or shadow strike, and auto attack for the remaining time. 5 twin fangs probably did more damage, when we average time over the cycle time of your abilities (i.e. the cooldown times of flasks). 

 

FoL is however, absolutely and utterly broken if you pause, use it, switch to other character, wait for 7-11 seconds. Because then your inquisitor (or Sera) attacked at 100x normal DPS for 7-11 seconds. I consider this to be "cheese" if not an "exploit" not to mention it's not fun to just beat a boss/dragon w/o even controlling your character.

 

Thousand Blades is probably the best focus ability in the game. So if you really like using focus abilities, then that can push Tempest over the edge for you.

 

 

I don't like using bugs, exploits, or cheese to go through a game, especially the boss fights. I also don't quite like using focus abilities as much, so sure, bash me for setting restrictions to make the game harder for myself, but I'll take DW Assassin when I want to deal max single-target DPS. 

 

Tempest DW Rogue is fun in its own ways, mainly some of the stuff you can do with upgraded flask of frost is pretty fun. Also if you ever want to just not deal with enemies, just use FoF thousand cuts. It's a nice way to basically fast forward through filler combat, or any boss fight.