236 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

If your inquisitor is an elf you learn that the rule for every clan - no more then 3 mages within one clan (Keeper included). Nothing like this was ever mentioned before or am I wrong? Merrill mentioned once that at some point every elf had a bit of magic and I had an impression, that many elves still have magical abilities to some degree and Keeper can choose the most gifted as the First from a big lot.

So, is it some new addition (because it was never openly discussed in previous games) or is it a pure retcone? Or may be it was mentioned in some books\comics?

[TK514]

Merrill was traded to the Sabrae because her clan had too many Mages.

[daveliam]

I feel like people throw the word 'retcon' around when it's not applicable.  Unless the new information directly conflicts with and explains away a previously established fact, I don't see it as a 'retcon'.  I see it as adding in detail to the world.

[Karlone123]

Merill was not native to her clan, as she was traded from another clan. It can be presumed Merrill was taken to another clan because of one clan having too many mages.

[Taleroth]

Every elf did have a bit of magic. But those weren't the Dalish, that was Arlathan.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Another point says seven in a conversation with either Dorian or Solas, so I think it varies from clan to clan. Once all eleves were mages but, they weren't called such obviously because it was just part of being an elf, as was immortality. I think they did the 3/7 intentionally so that you could imagine your elf inquisitor to be either an out cast or one that would have been keeper someday were it not for the conclave.

[Sanunes]

All they did was add more information to an area there wasn't any before. Its like talking to someone to find out their favorite color is blue, they didn't retcon the facts to say they now have a favorite color its just more information you now have at your disposal.

[Amirit]

I feel like people throw the word 'retcon' around when it's not applicable.  Unless the new information directly conflicts with and explains away a previously established fact, I don't see it as a 'retcon'.  I see it as adding in detail to the world.

 

And this is why I am asking and not accusing. I had an impression (probably totally wrong) that in previous games though the question was never raised somehow you knew that mages is not a problem for any clan - at the end nobody even discussed that point when you sent Fenriel to dailish in DA2. And if it's such an important rule - even the low - it had to be mentioned.

This is why I asked if the rule ever existed before or somewhere actually was mentioned that there can be as many mages in the clan as clan wants. In later case that rule IS a retcon.

[ChaosMarky]

I think 3 mages per clan are feasible:

 

1: The Keeper

2: The First

3: The Spare (for emergencies. you never know )

[Amirit]

Another point says seven in a conversation with either Dorian or Solas, so I think it varies from clan to clan. Once all eleves were mages but, they weren't called such obviously because it was just part of being an elf, as was immortality. I think they did the 3/7 intentionally so that you could imagine your elf inquisitor to be either an out cast or one that would have been keeper someday were it not for the conclave.

 

Did not get to 7 yet - only had chance to tell Mineve "my clan does not throw 7years old kind in the woods for having magic" and then had to say to Vivienne (it's your inquisitor dialog option) that elven clans have that rule of three: the Keeper, the First and the Second.

 

Can not say I like that addition to the lore. 

[daveliam]

I think 3 mages per clan are feasible:

 

1: The Keeper

2: The First

3: The Spare (for emergencies. you never know )

 

You know, this could actually be an interesting story to explore.  What is life like for the 'spare'?  We've interacted with numerous Keepers and Firsts, but never (as far as I can tell) one of the 'spares'.  Are they trained as both mages and warriors?  Is it a rotating position, where you train a young 'spare' until they get to a certain age and then send them off if they aren't needed, at which point they are replaced with a new young 'spare'?  I'd like to learn more about this dynamic.

[robertthebard]

If you can't point to a codex from an earlier game that says something different to what you're questioning, then it's likely not a retcon. Now, if you have something from a previous title that states differently it could be. Since there is no information provided prior to this, then no, it's not a retcon, no matter how you feel about it.

[InfinitePaths]

DA:I opened my eyes in regards to how "stupid" (that's maybe a too harsh word) the Dalish are.And Solas played a great part in proving that.

 

They claim they respect the old lore and magic of their people.The lore they "respect" is false, yet they allow it to dictate their lives without putting much thought into how valid their knowledge actually is.

 

Even with their "respect" for magic among the elves, when the big bad human templers threaten them, they all too quickly decide to ditch one of their mages in order to survive.

 

What a bunch of misguided d**ks.

[ChaosMarky]

DA:I opened my eyes in regards to how "stupid" (that's maybe a too harsh word) the Dalish are.And Solas played a great part in proving that.

 

They claim they respect the old lore and magic of their people.The lore they "respect" is false, yet they allow it to dictate their lives without putting much thought into how valid their knowledge actually is.

 

Even with their "respect" for magic among the elves, when the big bad human templers threaten them, they all too quickly decide to ditch one of their mages in order to survive.

 

What a bunch of misguided d**ks.

 

 

HAHAHA! I so agree.

 

However, the same can be said of humans once it becomes proven that the maker does not exist

[Patchwork]

How I remember it is that Merrill was given to Sabrae because they had no mage children and in DA2 that's still a problem because Merrill's replacement is from another clan (headcanon says clan Lavellan). 

 

There's a codex entry in DAO that says mages are getting rare and they are seen as precious so from that perceptive the 3 mage rule is a retcon but we were never told the exact set up so it's a soft retcon imo. It doesn't directly contradict what's been established but it's not in keeping with the spirit of what's been indicated previously.

[wright1978]

Seems a bit crazy(& not in spirit of Dalish proposed aims) to only allow 3 mages per clan.

[InfinitePaths]

HAHAHA! I so agree.

 

However, the same can be said of humans once it be becomes proven that the maker does not exist

 

Yes, though bear in mind that the influence of the Andrastian chantry is much "less bad" than the Dalish.

 

The Dalish literally dedicate their entire life respecting a false lore and being hateful to everyone who isn't Dalish.They are also cowards who care more about their "search for old elven lore"  than the well-being of their clan.

 

The Andrastian chantry is kind of: "Eh, here's a church, you can go pray in it if you want.The maker loves you, kthx bye."There is some serious injustice done towards the mages, but I wouldn't blame the chantry for it, I would blame southern society as a whole.

[SarEnyaDor]

Retcon implies we were told something before and this contradicts it. I'm not sure this qualifies, but it was news to me.

Probably best way to think about it (since this was even stated in game) is that the Dalish are very fractured, to the point that the individual clans differ widely from each other. Some clans that hang closer to human cities may have more restrictions and paranoia about Templars and take precautions, while others don't feel the need, or do not actually have the need to as they have very few mages to worry about. Magic is a bloodline trait, afterall, and it makes sense that some clans may have ended up with more magical blood than others.

[Ryriena]

Yeah I would say a soft retcon because the lore from other games suggest that highly valued those with Magic, since they were rare. So kicking a mage out is verily unlikely to have happened they did this so we wouldn't pick Mages all the time in the game. I mean if their was a entirely better way than the cricle wouldn't you pick Mages most of the time.

[Evamitchelle]

I don't think we've ever seen a clan that had more than 3 mages, but the way Lanaya talked about competing for the position of Keeper's First definitely made it sound like there were more than 3 mages total. (Zathrian, Elora, Lanaya + other mages she was competing against). 

 

Merrill's codex entry also says "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance" which make it sound like the Dalish wouldn't just, you know, dump children with magical talent into the wild. But so far the only clan that has done that is Minaeve's, while we know that Sabrae, Lavellan and Zathrian's clan don't (Sabrae and Zathrian's clan have even been shown to take in extra mages). So it's probably not something most clans do. 

[Ryriena]

They had to make the Dalish look like stupid fools to make the chantry look better in how they handled magic, so people would pick the Templars.

[ChaosMarky]

You know, this could actually be an interesting story to explore.  What is life like for the 'spare'?  We've interacted with numerous Keepers and Firsts, but never (as far as I can tell) one of the 'spares'.  Are they trained as both mages and warriors?  Is it a rotating position, where you train a young 'spare' until they get to a certain age and then send them off if they aren't needed, at which point they are replaced with a new young 'spare'?  I'd like to learn more about this dynamic.

 

 

Being "The Spare" will surely be interesting.

 

You'll be like the last draft pick of the Dalish Sports arena.

[Wulfram]

Well, I'm not sure how it fits with Aneirin in DA:O, given that the clan already has 3 mages (Lanaya, Zathrian, Elora).

 

It also seems odd compared to how Lanaya talks about being selected for First

[Rifneno]

No, it is not a retcon.  There is no previous information that directly contradicts it.  It is not a retcon.  That's not up for debate.  I'm not saying "I don't think this is a retcon", I'm saying "this is not a retcon."  Period.  You've got a cat in your hand and are asking "Is this a dog or not?"  No, it is not.

 

Dalish fanboys need to take all these new facts and deal with them.

[Amirit]

No, it is not a retcon.  There is no previous information that directly contradicts it.  It is not a retcon.  That's not up for debate.  I'm not saying "I don't think this is a retcon", I'm saying "this is not a retcon."  Period.  You've got a cat in your hand and are asking "Is this a dog or not?"  No, it is not.

 

Dalish fanboys need to take all these new facts and deal with them.

 

I am far from being a "dalish fangirl" and can agree that it's not a retcon in "there was never a written note that clans can have as many mages as they want"-kind of thing. However I like the way Patchwork put it - a contradiction to "the spirit of what's been indicated previously". Because of these:

 

There's a codex entry in DAO that says mages are getting rare and they are seen as precious

 

 

the way Lanaya talked about competing for the position of Keeper's First definitely made it sound like there were more than 3 mages total. (Zathrian, Elora, Lanaya + other mages she was competing against).

 

 

Plus immediate acceptance of Fenriel (who is even not a pure blood elf) because of magic talents without even discussion of possibility to have "too many mages".

 

Guess, Ryriena is right and it was done to make dalish look worse and leave player a chance to restore the chantry and side with templars.