236 réponses à ce sujet

[Evamitchelle]

No, it is not a retcon.  There is no previous information that directly contradicts it.  It is not a retcon.  That's not up for debate.  I'm not saying "I don't think this is a retcon", I'm saying "this is not a retcon."  Period.  You've got a cat in your hand and are asking "Is this a dog or not?"  No, it is not.

 

Dalish fanboys need to take all these new facts and deal with them.

 

Zathrian's clan has at least 4 mages in Origins: Zathrian, Lanaya, Elora and Aneirin. Other mages are mentioned as well, though never shown. This directly contradicts the "no more than 3 mages per clan rule".

 

The simplest way to see it is that every clan has its own rules. Maybe most clans try to have 3 mages or less, but not all clans do. And IIRC the only people who talk about that rule in DAI are Minaeve, who was abandoned when she was only 7 years old (making it unlikely that she'd be very familiar with the other Dalish clans) and Vivienne, who's most likely never even met a Dalish elf before meeting the Inquisitor. 

[AsheraII]

There's also the part that not all clans have contact with eachother, so it's very probable for "rules" to vary the further they are apart.

[Ryriena]

I have dealt with them I just call it like I see them as a soft retacon, since even Anders though how the Dalish treated their Mages was better.

[Ryriena]

There's also the part that not all clans have contact with eachother, so it's very probable for "rules" to vary the further they are apart.

The thing is they had a meeting of the clans every few years so they had to be incontact with other clans to get them to the meetings ect.

[Wulfram]

I have dealt with them I just call it like I see them as a soft retacon, since even Anders though how the Dalish treated their Mages was better.

 

Anders' contact with reality isn't necessarily the greatest

[SarEnyaDor]

Ug, you guys, it says *in game* that all the clans are so different from each other that they have almost begun developing different cultures even.

Let it go.

Minaeve came from a clan more worried about Templars, Zathrian's clan was all about the magic, most probably fall somewhere in between.

[daveliam]

Zathrian's clan has at least 4 mages in Origins: Zathrian, Lanaya, Elora and Aneirin. Other mages are mentioned as well, though never shown. This directly contradicts the "no more than 3 mages per clan rule".

 

 

I don't think this is correct. 

 

Aneirin isn't part of Zathrian's Clan.  He stays in the Brecilian Forest.  The clan knows of him, but I have always taken him to be an apostate Circle mage who stays close enough to the Dalish for comfort's sake, but not actually within the Clan. 

 

It would also make sense that the "other mages" that Lanaya beat out for the position of First would include:  Elora (now the "spare") and the others that aren't seen because they've been sent away. 

 

I count three mages in Zathrian's Clan:   Zathrian (Keeper), Lanaya (First), and Elora ('spare').  Aneirin is an elven apostate Circle mage living nearby in the woods and the others that Lanaya beat out for the position (save Elora) are all gone.  This gels with the "only three in a clan" rule actually.

[herkles]

My view is this. Each dalish clan is different with similar over all customs but the clan culture itself is unique. Most probaly have about 3 mages, and then engage in diplomacy with another clan for the exchange of a mage, like an alliance or goods or perhaps extra warriors. 

 

Some clans might ignore this, some might force the 4th mage out to die. but each clan is different. 

[Ryriena]

Anders' contact with reality isn't necessarily the greatest

Wouldn't he know more since his commader in the Wardens was possiblely a Dalish elf.

[Evamitchelle]

I don't think this is correct. 

 

Aneirin isn't part of Zathrian's Clan.  He stays in the Brecilian Forest.  The clan knows of him, but I have always taken him to be an apostate Circle mage who stays close enough to the Dalish for comfort's sake, but not actually within the Clan. 

 

It would also make sense that the "other mages" that Lanaya beat out for the position of First would include:  Elora (now the "spare") and the others that aren't seen because they've been sent away. 

 

I count three mages in Zathrian's Clan:   Zathrian (Keeper), Lanaya (First), and Elora ('spare').  Aneirin is an elven apostate Circle mage living nearby in the woods and the others that Lanaya beat out for the position (save Elora) are all gone.  This gels with the "only three in a clan" rule actually.

 

True, Aneirin's position in Zathrian's clan is in question, but he ran away from the Circle when he was 14, and said he was taken in by a Dalish clan who nursed him back to health. That was, what, 15-20 years ago ? Does he just follow Zathrian's clan around without being actually part of it, or was he rescued by a different clan entirely ? Anyway, I doubt that it's a distinction the templars would care to make, so if the Dalish were truly serious about enforcing the no more than 3 mages rule they'd probably tell Aneirin to go set up camp somewhere else.

 

I hadn't considered that Elora might be one of the spares, mostly because she looks twice as old as Lanaya. All the Firsts that we've seen so far have been very young, most are barely out of their teenage years. 

 

Anyway the simplest answer is still 'different clans have different rules'. 

[Rifneno]

Anders' contact with reality isn't necessarily the greatest

IKR?  I can't believe it took him ten years to do what he should've done the night they made Karl tranquil for the lulz.

[Wulfram]

Lanaya says that the other candidates "became used to me", which doesn't really fit with the notion that they were all sent away.

[daveliam]

True, Aneirin's position in Zathrian's clan is in question, but he ran away from the Circle when he was 14, and said he was taken in by a Dalish clan who nursed him back to health. That was, what, 15-20 years ago ? Does he just follow Zathrian's clan around without being actually part of it, or was he rescued by a different clan entirely ? Anyway, I doubt that it's a distinction the templars would care to make, so if the Dalish were truly serious about enforcing the no more than 3 mages rule they'd probably tell Aneirin to go set up camp somewhere else.

 

I hadn't considered that Elora might be one of the spares, mostly because she looks twice as old as Lanaya. All the Firsts that we've seen so far have been very young, most are barely out of their teenage years. 

 

Anyway the simplest answer is still 'different clans have different rules'. 

 

It's probably the 'different clans have different rules' thing with the 'tradition' being 3 mages in each clan.

 

I think Aneirin does follow the clan around.  He's not Dalish by birth.  He's a city elf.  Sure, he's probably gotten pretty good at surviving on his own in the past decade, but he's also probably comforted by knowing that there are Dalish nearby, just in case.

 

And, I do think that Elora is the 'spare' in that clan.  She looks older than Lanaya, so that might also be why Lanaya frames it as 'beating out' her competitors.  Elora, because of her age, might have been the one likely to be first, but Zathrian went with the younger Lanaya as his first.  And, remember that Zathrian is old, so it makes sense that the other mages in that clan could be older as well. 

 

 

Lanaya says that the other candidates "became used to me", which doesn't really fit with the notion that they were all sent away.

 

Still fits if Elora is one of the 'spares' who was beat out for the position.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

They really shat all over the Dalish in this game to an eye roll inducing degree. I thought some of the revelations were interesting but they really pushed it with the whole 'abandoning kids in the wild' thing.

[Evamitchelle]

It's probably the 'different clans have different rules' thing with the 'tradition' being 3 mages in each clan.

 

I think Aneirin does follow the clan around.  He's not Dalish by birth.  He's a city elf.  Sure, he's probably gotten pretty good at surviving on his own in the past decade, but he's also probably comforted by knowing that there are Dalish nearby, just in case.

 

And, I do think that Elora is the 'spare' in that clan.  She looks older than Lanaya, so that might also be why Lanaya frames it as 'beating out' her competitors.  Elora, because of her age, might have been the one likely to be first, but Zathrian went with the younger Lanaya as his first.  And, remember that Zathrian is old, so it makes sense that the other mages in that clan could be older as well. 

 

 

Just looked at Aneirin's page on the DA Wiki, and he's got vallaslin. I think it's fair to say he officially became Dalish and joined Zathrian's clan. 

[herkles]

Anyway the simplest answer is still 'different clans have different rules'. 

Occam's Razor.  Not to menton the lore kind of supports this view anyways. 

[Kinsz]

HAHAHA! I so agree.

 

However, the same can be said of humans once it becomes proven that the maker does not exist

When exactly was it  proven that the Maker doesnt exist ?

[Rifneno]

They really shat all over the Dalish in this game to an eye roll inducing degree. I thought some of the revelations were interesting but they really pushed it with the whole 'abandoning kids in the wild' thing.

Because every other society in Thedas hasn't done awful stuff.

 

The mistake wasn't that the Dalish were crapped on in DAI, it's that they made the Dalish look so innocent in the first two games.

[daveliam]

Just looked at Aneirin's page on the DA Wiki, and he's got vallaslin. I think it's fair to say he officially became Dalish and joined Zathrian's clan. 

 

Oh yeah, I agree.  He probably sees himself as Dalish.  Not sure if they would see him that same way back.  Do they ever call him Dalish?  How does the elf in the Clan refer to him when you start the Wynne's Regret quest?  I can't remember.  But, either way, he doesn't live with the clan.  So again, it supports the idea that there are only three mages currently residing in Zathrian's Clan.

[Heimdall]

Just looked at Aneirin's page on the DA Wiki, and he's got vallaslin. I think it's fair to say he officially became Dalish and joined Zathrian's clan.

Except that they make it quite clear that he does not live with the clan and they do not speak of him as one of them. At most, he's an honorary member.

[Evamitchelle]

Oh yeah, I agree.  He probably sees himself as Dalish.  Not sure if they would see him that same way back.  Do they ever call him Dalish?  How does the elf in the Clan refer to him when you start the Wynne's Regret quest?  I can't remember.  But, either way, he doesn't live with the clan.  So again, it supports the idea that there are only three mages currently residing in Zathrian's Clan.

 

Well he didn't give himself the vallaslin, the Dalish had to see him as one of them if they agreed to let him go through their adulthood ritual. They don't let just anyone get vallaslin (Pol doesn't have any, and he's been with Sabrae for a couple of years). But it's true that his status as an actual member of Zathrian's clan is still pretty ambiguous.

 

I still think this + Lanaya's competition (I don't remember the dialogue exactly, but there were more than one I think, so even if Elora's one of them it still leaves more) points toward them having more than 3 mages at one point or another. 

 

In any case I'm still going with 'different clans, different rules', which makes all of this a lot simpler to deal with.  

[Amirit]

In any case I'm still going with 'different clans, different rules', which makes all of this a lot simpler to deal with.  

 

It sure helps, except the fact that it is you who have to tell to Vivienne about the general "rule of three", not the other way around. And get the answer "you see, survival means more than ethics". The rule came as a big surprise to me in that dialog.

[Patchwork]

The Keeper is the leader of the clan, the First and the Spare/Second are the future leaders and by having that system in place all the Dalish are doing is ensuring there's no question about succession (monarchs of Thedas take note). What to do with the other mages seems to be where clans differ. 

 

Hopefully because Minaeve's story doesn't fit with the Dalish as I understand them which is for all their faults and hostility towards outsiders they care for one another. 

[herkles]

I guess people don't like occam's razor

[Evamitchelle]

It sure helps, except the fact that it is you who have to tell to Vivienne about the general "rule of three", not the other way around. And get the answer "you see, survival means more than ethics". The rule came as a big surprise to me in that dialog.

 

When I talk to Vivienne with Lavellan and pick "the Dalish don't have tempars and are just fine" she's the one who says (paraphrasing) "It's my understanding that the Dalish never have more than 3 mages". And then I think the conversation just moves on. But I don't remember Lavellan actually bringing up the rule on their own. And when Minaeve said it Lavellan answered "My clan never did that. We sent extra mages to other clans", but never actually establishes the limit as 3. But maybe I'm missing/misremembering something ?