236 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

While I do think it's a little questionable fit with the Origins Dialogue, the question of where all the dalish mages were was a bit of a mystery that did need resolving.

[Rifneno]

I guess people don't like occam's razor

Occam's Razor doesn't apply to fiction.

[Spetulhu]

Dalish mages were said to be rare in Origins, rare enough that some clans have to negotiate with others to get a First. I'd guess the rule of three is what a clan considers they should keep for themself to be safe. Any spares can then be considered for helping another clan. It would be seen as selfish to keep more than three if other clans need the help and you know about it.

[Reaver102]

It's not necessarily a retcon, more of a clarification, though it does go against the spirit the Dalish were presented with in Origins and in DA2.  In those games mages were rare and in order to meet the requirements of a Keeper and First, the clans would trade mages, in those games the Dalish were presented as being accepting of magic as their ancestors were supposedly all mages.  

 

As for Merrill, she was trade because Sabre needed mages, not because her home clan had to many mages.

[Amirit]

When I talk to Vivienne with Lavellan and pick "the Dalish don't have tempars and are just fine" she's the one who says (paraphrasing) "It's my understanding that the Dalish never have more than 3 mages". And then I think the conversation just moves on. But I don't remember Lavellan actually bringing up the rule on their own. And when Minaeve said it Lavellan answered "My clan never did that. We sent extra mages to other clans", but never actually establishes the limit as 3. But maybe I'm missing/misremembering something ?

 

My memory is far from perfect but I just had that conversation and pretty sure it's you who has to explain everything about First, Second and handling the rest of the mages in the clan. Minaeve's story is contradicting everything we knew about dalish and magic. And that dialog with Vivienne did not help either. 

I'll try to stick with "Minaeve's clan was very weird" and that "rule of three" is something from very old times when there were plenty of elves with magical abilities and high demon activities. But it's not easy.  

[Ashagar]

I could be misremembering but didn't Solas say the Dalish traditions greatly varied not just between clans and but between clans of different areas. For instance the Elven Inquisitors clan was extremely unusual if not outright unique for caring so much about human affairs to the point of sending the clan's second to spy on the conclave.  

[Amirit]

I could be misremembering but didn't Solas say the Dalish traditions greatly varied not just between clans and but between clans of different areas. For instance the Elven Inquisitors clan was extremely unusual if not outright unique for caring so much about human affairs to the point of sending the clan's second to spy on the conclave.  

 

He did say it. But we do know (from Merrill) that clans have a big gathering every several years to exchange news, rare tools and so on. They can not be THAT different. Especially in something as important as handling precious (according to DAO and DA2) mages. So far clans were unable to get enough mages, yet one clan could simply kill an extra one an get away with it. Let's just call them weird and forget about it.

[TK514]

Plus immediate acceptance of Fenriel (who is even not a pure blood elf) because of magic talents without even discussion of possibility to have "too many mages"...

That was pretty clearly because he was a once in a lifetime variant of Mages with power that scared her enough to advocate making him tranquil if he couldn't be saved.

Plus, given that they had to go looking for a new First, he would have been, at most, the third mage.

[Vit246]

In the wisdom of Captain Barbossa: "The code is more like guidelines than actual rules."

[Addai]

DA:I opened my eyes in regards to how "stupid" (that's maybe a too harsh word) the Dalish are.And Solas played a great part in proving that.
 
They claim they respect the old lore and magic of their people.The lore they "respect" is false, yet they allow it to dictate their lives without putting much thought into how valid their knowledge actually is.
 
Even with their "respect" for magic among the elves, when the big bad human templers threaten them, they all too quickly decide to ditch one of their mages in order to survive.
 
What a bunch of misguided d**ks.

You expect a scattered people uprooted from their cities and institutions with only (or mostly) oral history to keep everything perfectly?

It's not accurate to say that they put no thought into their history. That's kind of ridiculous, actually. What we see now is that they've become insular and xenophobic, but you can hardly blame them for that, given that in many places they're hunted like animals. Solas doesn't hate them, he pities them, and with Lavellan comes around to wondering if he's misjudged them.

About the OP: As I've said elsewhere, I don't think this development makes sense. I'm putting it down as Minaeve's clan is an outlier and Vivienne heard about her and extrapolated.

[Eterna]

DA:I opened my eyes in regards to how "stupid" (that's maybe a too harsh word) the Dalish are.And Solas played a great part in proving that.

 

They claim they respect the old lore and magic of their people.The lore they "respect" is false, yet they allow it to dictate their lives without putting much thought into how valid their knowledge actually is.

 

Even with their "respect" for magic among the elves, when the big bad human templers threaten them, they all too quickly decide to ditch one of their mages in order to survive.

 

What a bunch of misguided d**ks.

 

The intent is what matters, they may be wrong about a lot of things, but they are just a people trying to reclaim and live by their heritage. Surely you can see the value in their intent? 

[Giantdeathrobot]

I guess people don't like occam's razor

 

That would mean an end to the opinions and debates, and surely that is madness.

[Wulfram]

My memory is far from perfect but I just had that conversation and pretty sure it's you who has to explain everything about First, Second and handling the rest of the mages in the clan. Minaeve's story is contradicting everything we knew about dalish and magic. And that dialog with Vivienne did not help either. 

I'll try to stick with "Minaeve's clan was very weird" and that "rule of three" is something from very old times when there were plenty of elves with magical abilities and high demon activities. But it's not easy.  

 

Possibly the dialogue is different depending on whether you're a Dalish Mage or just a random dalish.

[RazorrX]

Actually it totally makes sense.  Dalish are not well thought of to begin with, the Chantry would go batshit crazy if they heard of a clan with a bunch of apostates.  knowing that there may be 1 or 2 is one thing, but a dozen?  They would hunt that clan down and burn it to the ground.

[fhs33721]

Actually it totally makes sense.  Dalish are not well thought of to begin with, the Chantry would go batshit crazy if they heard of a clan with a bunch of apostates.  knowing that there may be 1 or 2 is one thing, but a dozen?  They would hunt that clan down and burn it to the ground.

 

No need for that. They seem to be quite capable of getting themselves wiped out without Chantry interference (potentially Zathrians clan, Velannas clan, potentially Merrils clan, the clan from masked empire and potentially the Lavellan clan). Seriously at that rate sending templars wouldn't even be worth the effort. The problem will solve itself most likely.

[MrIsidor]

But we do know (from Merrill) that clans have a big gathering every several years to exchange news, rare tools and so on. They can not be THAT different.

There's also mentioned in codex entries in DA:I about that meeting. But I'd say it still allows for big differences. Our nations in the real world meet all the time in the UN but yet our nations ("clans") are vastly different with different views on things like religion, human rights, death sentence and so on.

The Dalish gatherings are only every 10 year or so (I might remember the number wrong) and I think it's reasonable to think that allows for rather significant differences in different clans. A clan will hardly change something they've been practicing for many years just because they meet with other clans for a short time.

[Vilegrim]

No, it is not a retcon.  There is no previous information that directly contradicts it.  It is not a retcon.  That's not up for debate.  I'm not saying "I don't think this is a retcon", I'm saying "this is not a retcon."  Period.  You've got a cat in your hand and are asking "Is this a dog or not?"  No, it is not.

 

Dalish fanboys need to take all these new facts and deal with them.

 

 

just to make it even we need some chantry sisters to be found raping someone to death with broken bottles or some such, or to find out that they encouraged the Templars to be so abusive...

[Ashagar]

Well there was that grand cleric and knight Templar commander who tried to murder the divine by conspiring with blood magic cultists who wanted to bring about the glory days of blood mages enslaving the world only to get foiled by Cassandra and loyalist mages.

[Vilegrim]

Well there was that grand cleric and knight Templar commander who tried to murder the divine by conspiring with blood magic cultists who wanted to bring about the glory days of blood mages enslaving the world only to get foiled by Cassandra and loyalist mages.

 

 

If we find out the Divine was plotting something similar we would be close.  Actually, no, finding out that 'The Maker' is a the name of the Demon that caused the Blight and that DArkspawn are actually what caused by the soulss of Andrastrian dead being given form,  would be close to how slammed the Dalish got, for daring to not grovel at the feet of monotheism in this game.  *is taking a break from reading the Night Angel Trilogy and listening to doom-pop to post*

[Amirit]

There's also mentioned in codex entries in DA:I about that meeting. But I'd say it still allows for big differences. Our nations in the real world meet all the time in the UN but yet our nations ("clans") are vastly different with different views on things like religion, human rights, death sentence and so on.

The Dalish gatherings are only every 10 year or so (I might remember the number wrong) and I think it's reasonable to think that allows for rather significant differences in different clans. A clan will hardly change something they've been practicing for many years just because they meet with other clans for a short time.

 

I would not compare those things - in our case a couple of representatives meet officially to exchange polite words and nothing more, while for dalish all clans members interact with each other. Not to mention one language, one race, one religion - the luxury we do not possess. 

So thinking of one clan treating something amazingly important as garbage is difficult to say the least. It's very tempting to go Addai67's way - headcanon Minaeve as a delusional child with poor memory (probably just lost in the woods, was very scared, later made up some stories) and talk with Vivienne as something she initiated basing on Minaeve's "true story".

[Vilegrim]

I would not compare those things - in our case a couple of representatives meet officially to exchange polite words and nothing more, while for dalish all clans members interact with each other. Not to mention one language, one race, one religion - the luxury we do not possess. 

So thinking of one clan treating something amazingly important as garbage is difficult to say the least. It's very tempting to go Addai67's way - headcanon Minaeve as a delusional child with poor memory (probably just lost in the woods, was very scared, later made up some stories) and talk with Vivienne as something she initiated basing on Minaeve's "true story".

 

 

it is stated in gmae that different clans do things differently, extending that to number of mages could work.  Also Viv is a power hungry sociopath, so taking her word for anything is sketchy, considering that she supported the Templar actions, yes even the rapes, as long as it kept her own power, and as long as she didn't have to live in a circle.

[robertthebard]

If we find out the Divine was plotting something similar we would be close.  Actually, no, finding out that 'The Maker' is a the name of the Demon that caused the Blight and that DArkspawn are actually what caused by the soulss of Andrastrian dead being given form,  would be close to how slammed the Dalish got, for daring to not grovel at the feet of monotheism in this game.  *is taking a break from reading the Night Angel Trilogy and listening to doom-pop to post*

Except that that's not what really happens, is it? Abelas points out that the Shems didn't stomp the elves, the elves stomped the elves, and the Dalish have the history all wrong. Having an Elf that was likely around during their heyday point out that they were their own undoing isn't being slammed for refusing to bow to monotheism. There is also that interesting little tidbit from the dungeon in the Emerald Graves that shows that the initial cause of that Exalted March was not what we were led to believe it was, but was due to actions taken by the Dalish.

[Shahadem]

It's a clear retcon. There is absolutely no indication that elven clans would send away elven mages born into that clan because they had too many. The elven mages were trained to be Keepers or leaders of the clan, indicating that the ability to use magic was a very prestigious and desireable trait. In fact there wasn't any indication that the elves were ever on edge or worried about any of their mages becoming abominations or summoning demons. It seemed more that for elves, possession and demon summoning simply didn't occur because elves were trained and brought up to think differently about magic. So elves didn't live in fear of magic as the humans did, rather they openly embraced and lauded it. Thus the 3 mage thing is a clear retcon, especially because of how specific it is.

 

Since the thing that determines how many abominations a clan could fight is the military capacity of the clan, the number of mages each clan could keep would be based on its size. Thus a small clan might only be able to keep 1 Keeper while a large clan might be able to have 6 or 7 or more (assuming that we are taking the DA:I view as mages were a boon to the clan in DA:O and DA2 and would never be considered a potential problem). It's true that mages were shared amongst the clans in DA:O and DA2, but that was because some clans didn't have enough mages or didn't have any mages at all and allowing mage elves to go outside the clan strengthened relations between the various Dalish clans especially as this allowed each clan to share its knowledge with the other clan.

 

So yes, this is a huge retcon in DA:I and it was added solely to besmirch the Dalish in DA:I. DA:O and DA2 were both pro elf, so DA:I wanted to edgy and be anti-elf.

 

DA:I also tried to create this "mages are always evil and dangerous" concept even though the game clearly demonstrated quite the contrary; that mages were no more dangerous than any other person and that dangerous depends on the mental state of the person and not whether or not they can use magic. The evil mages in Tevinter aren't dangerous because they can use magic, but because they are inherently evil and corrupt. Vlad the impaler for example committed even more atrocious acts than the evil Tevinter mages, and yet he wasn't a mage.

[Shahadem]

it is stated in gmae that different clans do things differently, extending that to number of mages could work.  Also Viv is a power hungry sociopath, so taking her word for anything is sketchy, considering that she supported the Templar actions, yes even the rapes, as long as it kept her own power, and as long as she didn't have to live in a circle.

 

WHich is my favorite thing about the two faced Vivienne. She says the circles are great places to live, even though she herself never really lived in one and has enjoyed living a life that is denied to the majority of mages and is thus completely incapable of understanding the position of the other mages, especially when she has actually been living a life of freedom this entire time but wants to deny the other mages the benefit of living a similar free life that she has been enjoying this entire time.

[Maniccc]

I just hated that your Dalish elf can't tell Viv that her "understanding" is wrong, or whatever.  You have no power to educate her on a  subject with which the elf PC is far more knowledgeable, instead we have to live with her hearsay in that argument.  It was very poor writing.