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No more than 3 mages per clan - retcon or not?


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#76
LiquidLyrium

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Also, in DA2 Merrill gives some bone-chilling exposition/foreshadowing that explains just HOW the Dalish deal with demonic possession.

 

 

Oh it can happen. And when it does the Clan must kill their Keeper.

 

So basically, the Keeper is expected to comport themselves in a way that benefits the whole clan, and not to succumb to temptation because otherwise they might end up having to fight or kill members of their own clan. (Which is probably why blood magic, particularly what Merrill was doing--actually talking to a demon--was so frowned upon.) 

 

Like this whole "no more than three mages" thing "because no Templars" is frankly garbage. The Dalish never had Templars because they treated magic in a completely different way from the Andrastian world of Southern Thedas. If the Keeper or one of their Firsts became an abomination, then it was up to everyone capable of fighting to put them down. But that is presumably something that happens rarely, because the Dalish are a dying people, trying to survive and preserve what precious little history they had left. It only makes sense that the Keepers themselves try to police their own actions for everyone's safety.

 

(And they actively avoided human settlements because they were painfully aware that the Chantry does not look kindly on them having "apostates" around and losing a Keeper and/or First to the Templars would be disastrous for any group of Dalish.)


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#77
fizzypop

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Yes, though bear in mind that the influence of the Andrastian chantry is much "less bad" than the Dalish.

 

The Dalish literally dedicate their entire life respecting a false lore and being hateful to everyone who isn't Dalish.They are also cowards who care more about their "search for old elven lore"  than the well-being of their clan.

 

The Andrastian chantry is kind of: "Eh, here's a church, you can go pray in it if you want.The maker loves you, kthx bye."There is some serious injustice done towards the mages, but I wouldn't blame the chantry for it, I would blame southern society as a whole.

um except not at all. They hurt the templars too or did you forget about that? An entire war started because of the chantry.



#78
herkles

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um except not at all. They hurt the templars too or did you forget about that? An entire war started because of the chantry.

the outbreak of the exalted march of the dales was red-crossing, which was an incident caused by the elves.  Though the tensions existed prior as the whole situation was a powder keg before the war between Orlais and the Dales. IMO anything would have caused war between them.



#79
Esmian

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Yeaahh...the idea that the chantry influences southern Thedas any less than the Dalish's misguided drive to adhere to their perceived lore is kinda ridiculous. The chantry pre Inquisition was an institution that impacted most people's lives and had tight control over powerful organizations like the circles and the templar orders. Most humans were pretty much expected to be Andrastrian to some degree, particularly those in ruling positions. Also the exalted march on the dales wasn't the only one in the chantry's history against an element that was considered heretical and others have apparently been considered by Justinia alone.



#80
TK514

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It's a clear retcon. There is absolutely no indication that elven clans would send away elven mages born into that clan because they had too many. The elven mages were trained to be Keepers or leaders of the clan, indicating that the ability to use magic was a very prestigious and desireable trait. In fact there wasn't any indication that the elves were ever on edge or worried about any of their mages becoming abominations or summoning demons. It seemed more that for elves, possession and demon summoning simply didn't occur because elves were trained and brought up to think differently about magic. So elves didn't live in fear of magic as the humans did, rather they openly embraced and lauded it. Thus the 3 mage thing is a clear retcon, especially because of how specific it is.

 

Since the thing that determines how many abominations a clan could fight is the military capacity of the clan, the number of mages each clan could keep would be based on its size. Thus a small clan might only be able to keep 1 Keeper while a large clan might be able to have 6 or 7 or more (assuming that we are taking the DA:I view as mages were a boon to the clan in DA:O and DA2 and would never be considered a potential problem). It's true that mages were shared amongst the clans in DA:O and DA2, but that was because some clans didn't have enough mages or didn't have any mages at all and allowing mage elves to go outside the clan strengthened relations between the various Dalish clans especially as this allowed each clan to share its knowledge with the other clan.

 

So yes, this is a huge retcon in DA:I and it was added solely to besmirch the Dalish in DA:I. DA:O and DA2 were both pro elf, so DA:I wanted to edgy and be anti-elf.

 

DA:I also tried to create this "mages are always evil and dangerous" concept even though the game clearly demonstrated quite the contrary; that mages were no more dangerous than any other person and that dangerous depends on the mental state of the person and not whether or not they can use magic. The evil mages in Tevinter aren't dangerous because they can use magic, but because they are inherently evil and corrupt. Vlad the impaler for example committed even more atrocious acts than the evil Tevinter mages, and yet he wasn't a mage.

 

I'm just going to have to call you out that your basic premise is wrong.  Dalish clans DO have to deal with possession and Abominations.  Merrill states outright what happens when a Dalish mage goes Abomination.

 

You know, followed at the endgame with Merethari doing exactly the thing you say Dalish mages don't do, and allowing herself to get possessed by a Pride Demon.



#81
KillTheLastRomantic

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Because every other society in Thedas hasn't done awful stuff.

 

The mistake wasn't that the Dalish were crapped on in DAI, it's that they made the Dalish look so innocent in the first two games.

 

Yeah, but come on. In one game we got:

 

'Hey, Dalish. Your entire history and religious views that you desperately and proudly cling to are laughably wrong, you kept slaves and destroyed your own society, you also started a war with humans and you've all permanently wrecked your faces with slave markings. 

 

Also, you abandon children in the woods sometimes. Lol. Here's Sera to take the ****** out of you.'

 

Jeez.


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#82
Sully13

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Dude I never thought of them as innocent bambies. I knew they had there flaws.

the thing was you didn't get to explore them thoroughly.


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#83
Fragoos

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Vivienne clearly stated why she did not have to live in the circle, Kirkwall's circle was a mage prison more than a circle. She was fortunate to be member of a more liberate circle. She was still a prisoner in the way they got her Phylactery.

 

Merril (and other Dalish) consider magic the gift and their mages have high status. Why in Mythal's name would they kill or exile them? At least they die free...Because of templars? The Dalish are hunted for centuries,and got a exalted march on their homeland. one would think more mages in a clan improve the clans survival. They stay clear from human territory and never are at the same place for long. In DA2 when that templar patrol was at the Dalish camp, they did not survive their threats.Gather the halla's and inform the keeper, time to pick up and leave again!

 

Dalish from Iron bull's band of misfits is also a exiled mage. It's not a staff but a bow. Dalish are not only the ****** poles from this game, Keeper magic is considered so inferior that they did not bother putting it into the game lol. Probably because it is race specific and will come in paid for dlc. 



#84
beccatoria

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The problem with dismissing Minaeve and Vivienne as misinformed is that if you are playing a Dalish Mage you don't get the opportunity to correct them.  In fact, you seem to acknowledge it's a known practice even if not one you or your clan agrees with.  You say things like, "My clan always found another way," or something.  

 

And as just noted, Dalish from Bull's Chargers is another elf who left her clan because there were too many Mages.  It's not clear in that case whether it was acrimonious.  "My Keeper thought I should see the world a bit," could be a sarcastic reference to being exiled or a genuine reference to a sorrowful and hopefully temporary parting.  But it's another piece of evidence that promotes the three mages per clan rule as new canon.  

 

Which, yeah, I think definitely does contradict the spirit of previous lore regarding the Dalish.  And in that it's a retcon and getting hung up on whether we can technically reconcile it with what came before is just semantics.  I mean, retroactive continuity doesn't necessarily mean changing events, it also refers to changing our understanding of events.  New ideas that cast new interpretations on old events.  That's what this does.  

 

I also think it's very clearly introduced in order to circumvent the "But why don't the Dalish need Templars?" question.  

 

 

Which is a fair point and I think if they didn't want to present the Dalish as having a clearly superior solution they should either have written it differently from the start, or written a better retcon that didn't feel so clunky.  The Genophage storyline in Mass Effect springs to mind as one where you find out more information in later games but it expands your previous understanding rather than making you feel like Bioware had suddenly invented a bunch of new stuff out of nowhere.    

 

From a purely narrative perspective, if you're worldbuilding, and you end up introducing pretty shocking new information about a major faction, years into the fictional existence of the world, and about the biggest thematic conflict in that world - I think it's fair for readers to go, "Wait, what?"

 

Like, whether you think they shouldn't have made the Dalish look so innocent before or not, this information doesn't come across smoothly.  It doesn't feel like you're learning something new that makes sense.  

 

It breaks the fourth wall.  It feels like something someone wrote in order to get themselves out of the corner they'd written themselves into.  Because that's the only way it makes sense.  

 

I mean, even the people who are in favour of this change seem to be working from a meta-game perspective of "the Dalish were too perfect," rather than an actual belief that it fits well into their established culture and attitudes?  The only way we seem able to reconcile this is "Well, uh, different clans are super different?" which, let's face it, is functional but again - on a meta level - is basically acknowledging there is no way to make the two conflicting presentations fit and so looking for ways the world can accommodate that conflict.  

 

Don't get me wrong, this was a great game on many levels.  I just really thought this particular retcon was weak.


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#85
Rifneno

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Yeah, but come on. In one game we got:
 
'Hey, Dalish. Your entire history and religious views that you desperately and proudly cling to are laughably wrong, you kept slaves and destroyed your own society, you also started a war with humans and you've all permanently wrecked your faces with slave markings. 
 
Also, you abandon children in the woods sometimes. Lol. Here's Sera to take the ****** out of you.'
 
Jeez.


Which is still 10 times better then DA2 made either the mages or the templars look.
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#86
IanPolaris

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Which is still 10 times better then DA2 made either the mages or the templars look.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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#87
leaguer of one

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We never saw more then 2 mages with the saber clan and the clan in dao.  I always wondered why. This info makes sense. No retcon.



#88
Maniccc

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My view is that Viv is a lousy source of information about the Dalish.  Remember, characters are not omniscient, they can be wrong about anything and everything.  Morrigan was wrong about several things, as we learn in this game.  So to me, taking Viv's ignorant word as gospel is just stupid.

 

Now, here's the problem...your Dalish elf says nothing to support or contradict her claim.  This, I thought, was amazingly bad writing.  Even if the 3 mage rule was true, the Dalish elf could/should have said something about it.

 

Eh, the writing in this game was so poor...this is only one example of its inferior quality, where we have some stuck-up human who knows next to nothing about the Dalish lecturing a Dalish elf on Dalish law....



#89
leaguer of one

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Vivienne clearly stated why she did not have to live in the circle, Kirkwall's circle was a mage prison more than a circle. She was fortunate to be member of a more liberate circle. She was still a prisoner in the way they got her Phylactery.

 

Merril (and other Dalish) consider magic the gift and their mages have high status. Why in Mythal's name would they kill or exile them? At least they die free...Because of templars? The Dalish are hunted for centuries,and got a exalted march on their homeland. one would think more mages in a clan improve the clans survival. They stay clear from human territory and never are at the same place for long. In DA2 when that templar patrol was at the Dalish camp, they did not survive their threats.Gather the halla's and inform the keeper, time to pick up and leave again!

 

Dalish from Iron bull's band of misfits is also a exiled mage. It's not a staff but a bow. Dalish are not only the ****** poles from this game, Keeper magic is considered so inferior that they did not bother putting it into the game lol. Probably because it is race specific and will come in paid for dlc. 

Count how many mages you see pre clan in all of dao. You going to see your answer.



#90
leaguer of one

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My view is that Viv is a lousy source of information about the Dalish.  Remember, characters are not omniscient, they can be wrong about anything and everything.  Morrigan was wrong about several things, as we learn in this game.  So to me, taking Viv's ignorant word as gospel is just stupid.

 

Now, here's the problem...your Dalish elf says nothing to support or contradict her claim.  This, I thought, was amazingly bad writing.  Even if the 3 mage rule was true, the Dalish elf could/should have said something about it.

 

Eh, the writing in this game was so poor...this is only one example of its inferior quality, where we have some stuck-up human who knows next to nothing about the Dalish lecturing a Dalish elf on Dalish law....

1. With Vive the one valid statement she has about the circle is that every mage has  different experience...Which is 100% true. Sure her views are narrowed but it's based on her experience in the circle. Kirkwall is way different . And one can see this with the fereldin circle.

 

2.With the statement on the rule with the dalish mages, go back and count how many mages per camp you see. It's pretty clear it did not need to be said among the dalish.

 

And this is far from bad writing.



#91
Maniccc

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1. With Vive the one valid statement she has about the circle is that every mage has  different experience...Which is 100% true. Sure her views are narrowed but it's based on her experience in the circle. Kirkwall is way different . And one can see this with the fereldin circle.

 

2.With the statement on the rule with the dalish mages, go back and count how many mages per camp you see. It's pretty clear it did not need to be said among the dalish.

 

And this is far from bad writing.

1)  Why are you telling me this?  I said nothing about the Circle....

 

2)  That does not constitute a rule, just a reality that we observe in a tiny number of the total number of clans.  They might have 3 or fewer mages for other reasons, such as the fact that fewer and fewer Dalish are being born with magic....

 

And how exactly is it bad writing for someone who knows little to nothing about a subject to get a free pass to lecture a person who knows much more about it?  Oh wait, fanboy reasons, nm.



#92
Sweawm

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We never saw more then 2 mages with the saber clan and the clan in dao.  I always wondered why. This info makes sense. No retcon.

It's ridiculous in the sense that all Elves used to have magic, before they were conquered (or destroyed themselves, whatever it is now). Magic is the 'gift' that all Elves once had and has been decreasing ever since, leading to fewer and fewer Mages. It's been said in previous games the Dalish are threatened with an end to their way of life because of their lack of Mages. So basically, in the past, there would have been numerous Mages in a single clan and in Origins, it's made plainly clear they need to trade Mages between Clans so that they can simply survive. 

 

If this was some half-baked attempt to make the Dalish 'darker and edgier' as the other factions, then it really wasn't necessary. The Dalish origin opened up with the Warden possibly just killing a few Humans because they simply happened to flee into proximity of the Dalish camp. Tamlen makes it sound like this is the usual thing they do. The Dalish really didn't need to get demonized because they already had notable flaws. 

 

After looking at what they did in Inquisition, it makes sense that there's possibly a writer in the team at Bioware who REALLY hates the Dalish and their sorta-cliche Elf nomad nature. 


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#93
leaguer of one

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1)  Why are you telling me this?  I said nothing about the Circle....

 

2)  That does not constitute a rule, just a reality that we observe in a tiny number of the total number of clans.  They might have 3 or fewer mages for other reasons, such as the fact that fewer and fewer Dalish are being born with magic....

 

And how exactly is it bad writing for someone who knows little to nothing about a subject to get a free pass to lecture a person who knows much more about it?  Oh wait, fanboy reasons, nm.

2.Dude, these are elves. The plot made it a point they are the most magically attune race out of the 4. Try again.

 

Who said Vivi got a free pass. Remember they call her arrogant and pride full for a reason.



#94
leaguer of one

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It's ridiculous in the sense that all Elves used to have magic, before they were conquered (or destroyed themselves, whatever it is now). Magic is the 'gift' that all Elves once had and has been decreasing ever since, leading to fewer and fewer Mages. It's been said in previous games the Dalish are threatened with an end to their way of life because of their lack of Mages. So basically, in the past, there would have been numerous Mages in a single clan and in Origins, it's made plainly clear they need to trade Mages between Clans so that they can simply survive. 

 

If this was some half-baked attempt to make the Dalish 'darker and edgier' as the other factions, then it really wasn't necessary. The Dalish origin opened up with the Warden possibly just killing a few Humans because they simply happened to flee into proximity of the Dalish camp. Tamlen makes it sound like this is the usual thing they do. The Dalish really didn't need to get demonized because they already had notable flaws. 

 

After looking at what they did in Inquisition, it makes sense that there's possibly a writer in the team at Bioware who REALLY hates the Dalish and their sorta-cliche Elf nomad nature. 

Ok, the lack of mages bit need a source before you say that's true. All was have is the statement of lack of elves, not there magic. And da2 made it a point the the mage population is rising.



#95
Maniccc

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2.Dude, these are elves. The plot made it a point they are the most magically attune race out of the 4. Try again.

 

Who said Vivi got a free pass. Remember they call her arrogant and pride full for a reason.

What?  Did you not pay attention to the stories?  They used to be all mages, basically, but the magic amongst them is dying out, and has been for centuries.  I think you have no clue about any of this....



#96
In Exile

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It's ridiculous in the sense that all Elves used to have magic, before they were conquered (or destroyed themselves, whatever it is now). Magic is the 'gift' that all Elves once had and has been decreasing ever since, leading to fewer and fewer Mages. It's been said in previous games the Dalish are threatened with an end to their way of life because of their lack of Mages. So basically, in the past, there would have been numerous Mages in a single clan and in Origins, it's made plainly clear they need to trade Mages between Clans so that they can simply survive.

If this was some half-baked attempt to make the Dalish 'darker and edgier' as the other factions, then it really wasn't necessary. The Dalish origin opened up with the Warden possibly just killing a few Humans because they simply happened to flee into proximity of the Dalish camp. Tamlen makes it sound like this is the usual thing they do. The Dalish really didn't need to get demonized because they already had notable flaws.

After looking at what they did in Inquisition, it makes sense that there's possibly a writer in the team at Bioware who REALLY hates the Dalish and their sorta-cliche Elf nomad nature.


The Dalish have unspeakably racist religious beliefs. It's something that if we just controll-F'd to use IRL groups would sound like something out of a KKK manifesto. They were always dark.

I don't think anyone at Bioware ever wanted to use the Dalish as a positive illustration of anything. In DAO we encounter them debating executing humans. We meet Zathrian penetrate a blood mage curse on now innocent people, selfishly mislead and abuse the trust of his people when it comes to the most sacred tenents of their belief, and attempts to manipulate the GWs into hiding the fact that it's his fault his people are dying. In DA2 we see Marethari exiling Merrill for the crime of wanting to preserve her people's history and turning an entire clan against her, which eventually is willing to *murder* Merrill if they don't back down via diplomacy.

The Dalish were never portrayed in a favourable or even mixed light.
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#97
leaguer of one

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What?  Did you not pay attention to the stories?  They used to be all mages, basically, but the magic amongst them is dying out, and has been for centuries.  I think you have no clue about any of this....

Dude, It's clear your jumping to conclusions. Yes, all elfs use to command magic but that does not mean the current number of elf mages are dropping. Heck, we have Merrill who was give to another clan because her old one had too many mages stated back in DA2. That some how not a hint they limit the number of mages they have per clan?



#98
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What? Did you not pay attention to the stories? They used to be all mages, basically, but the magic amongst them is dying out, and has been for centuries. I think you have no clue about any of this....

The stories we know are not true, you mean? We don't know what happened during their fall. We don't even know if their "gods" are gods.

#99
Heimdall

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What?  Did you not pay attention to the stories?  They used to be all mages, basically, but the magic amongst them is dying out, and has been for centuries.  I think you have no clue about any of this....

Magic isn't "dying" amongst the elves any more than it is amongst humans. They used to all be mages, thousands of years ago, but whatever stripped their immortality apparently restricted magic to rare individuals, like humans. There's no evidence that magic is any rarer amongst elves than it was when they were freed from slavery.

#100
Arakat

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My view is that Viv is a lousy source of information about the Dalish.  Remember, characters are not omniscient, they can be wrong about anything and everything.  Morrigan was wrong about several things, as we learn in this game.  So to me, taking Viv's ignorant word as gospel is just stupid.

 

Now, here's the problem...your Dalish elf says nothing to support or contradict her claim.  This, I thought, was amazingly bad writing.  Even if the 3 mage rule was true, the Dalish elf could/should have said something about it.

 

Eh, the writing in this game was so poor...this is only one example of its inferior quality, where we have some stuck-up human who knows next to nothing about the Dalish lecturing a Dalish elf on Dalish law....

 

But it's not just Vivienne who says this. Minaeve and Dalish from the Chargers were the extra mages who had to leave their clans.