236 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

The Dalish have unspeakably racist religious beliefs. It's something that if we just controll-F'd to use IRL groups would sound like something out of a KKK manifesto. They were always dark.

I don't think anyone at Bioware ever wanted to use the Dalish as a positive illustration of anything. In DAO we encounter them debating executing humans. We meet Zathrian penetrate a blood mage curse on now innocent people, selfishly mislead and abuse the trust of his people when it comes to the most sacred tenents of their belief, and attempts to manipulate the GWs into hiding the fact that it's his fault his people are dying. In DA2 we see Marethari exiling Merrill for the crime of wanting to preserve her people's history and turning an entire clan against her, which eventually is willing to *murder* Merrill if they don't back down via diplomacy.

The Dalish were never portrayed in a favourable or even mixed light.

True. They are show to be why to proud and arrogant.

[leaguer of one]

Magic isn't "dying" amongst the elves any more than it is amongst humans. They used to all be mages, thousands of years ago, but whatever stripped their immortality apparently restricted magic to rare individuals, like humans. There's no evidence that magic is any rarer amongst elves than it was when they were freed from slavery.

Thank you show this guy I'm not the only one who sees this.

[berelinde]

You know, this could actually be an interesting story to explore.  What is life like for the 'spare'?  We've interacted with numerous Keepers and Firsts, but never (as far as I can tell) one of the 'spares'.  Are they trained as both mages and warriors?  Is it a rotating position, where you train a young 'spare' until they get to a certain age and then send them off if they aren't needed, at which point they are replaced with a new young 'spare'?  I'd like to learn more about this dynamic.

We did meet one of the "spares" in DA2, that grumpy Dalish who took over after Marethari... became indisposed. She was in the camp the entire time, she just didn't talk much. IIRC, her entire conversation prior to the third act amounted to "Stay off my lawn."

[leaguer of one]

You know, this could actually be an interesting story to explore.  What is life like for the 'spare'?  We've interacted with numerous Keepers and Firsts, but never (as far as I can tell) one of the 'spares'.  Are they trained as both mages and warriors?  Is it a rotating position, where you train a young 'spare' until they get to a certain age and then send them off if they aren't needed, at which point they are replaced with a new young 'spare'?  I'd like to learn more about this dynamic.

Dude, remember the topic about the next DA game being about pirates?

 

Guess what would made for a great npc....That idea.

[daveliam]

We did meet one of the "spares" in DA2, that grumpy Dalish who took over after Marethari... became indisposed. She was in the camp the entire time, she just didn't talk much. IIRC, her entire conversation prior to the third act amounted to "Stay off my lawn."

 

Who's that?  I just went onto the DA wiki and couldn't find her. 

 

Dude, remember the topic about the next DA game being about pirates?

 

Guess what would made for a great npc....That idea.

 

I think we are on to something here.  Are you reading this Bioware?  Hire us! 

[robertthebard]

So, I just got all caught back up. Where is the lore that got retconned? So far, all I've read is speculation based on personal feelings about events in game. What one thinks lore is doesn't equate to what lore is, especially if we're never given anything to contradict the "new" lore. In order to be a retcon, it would have to change what's been presented. Since nothing, prior to this, has been presented, what changed?

[Ogillardetta]

As people mentioned the dalish are racist aholes with axes to grind. 

But it is funny to roleplay as one though especially in DAO

[myahele]

Sadly the Dalish are a very fractured group of people now and the devs/writers can always add different types of clans due to this. One clan might be similar to Levellan's and then there's clans like what was faced in ME.

 

I personally thought that any surplus mage within a clan will be transferred to a clan that needed one since they all try to meetup every 10yrs. 

[In Exile]

So, I just got all caught back up. Where is the lore that got retconned? So far, all I've read is speculation based on personal feelings about events in game. What one thinks lore is doesn't equate to what lore is, especially if we're never given anything to contradict the "new" lore. In order to be a retcon, it would have to change what's been presented. Since nothing, prior to this, has been presented, what changed?

The recton has to come from Lanaya (sp?) who said she competed for First. How can that be if she was a mage? With the Keeper and her, that's two. She clearly implied there were many candidates.

[Lebanese Dude]

Well, I'm not sure how it fits with Aneirin in DA:O, given that the clan already has 3 mages (Lanaya, Zathrian, Elora).

 

It also seems odd compared to how Lanaya talks about being selected for First

Er Aneiren isn't part of the clan. He just conveniently happened to be in the area.

[daveliam]

The recton has to come from Lanaya (sp?) who said she competed for First. How can that be if she was a mage? With the Keeper and her, that's two. She clearly implied there were many candidates.

 

Not necessarily.  If they send out 'extra' mages, then when Lanaya and the others were up for the First position, Anaya was given the position, Elora was kept as the 'spare', and the rest left the clan.  It's possible it went down this way and it wouldn't break the established lore. 

[Maniccc]

Ugh, I don't know why I got involved in this, it's all ignorance, we have no clue.  My only point was that Viv isn't an authority on the subject, and that experience with one or two clans does not mean all clans operate the same way.  We know as a fact that they do not have the same ideas in various issues concerning outsiders, for instance, so it seems reasonable to assume that there are other differences as well.

 

I never said it's a retcon or not, either way I don't really care.  But to assume Viv's ignorant word is law on the subject, or that two samples out of no one knows how many clans equals a universal Dalish law is just daft.

[IanPolaris]

Er Aneiren isn't part of the clan. He just conveniently happened to be in the area.

 

He is indeed part of the clan.  He has Vasalin (however you spell it) and he is certainly regarded as part of the clan around the storyteller's circle.  He isn't exiled.  The clan makes it very clear that he simply prefers to be alone.

 

The point is that if this isn't a retcon, it sure smells like one and if it isn't, then it fails only by the barest of technicalities.  IMHO it's one more example of the devs wanting to win an  argument by changing the lore.

[IanPolaris]

Ugh, I don't know why I got involved in this, it's all ignorance, we have no clue.  My only point was that Viv isn't an authority on the subject, and that experience with one or two clans does not mean all clans operate the same way.  We know as a fact that they do not have the same ideas in various issues concerning outsiders, for instance, so it seems reasonable to assume that there are other differences as well.

 

I never said it's a retcon or not, either way I don't really care.  But to assume Viv's ignorant word is law on the subject, or that two samples out of no one knows how many clans equals a universal Dalish law is just daft.

 

The problem isn't just Viv.  Essentially we get several difference sources within DAI that all say the say thing:  If you are a mage too many, then you get left to die by the Dalish.  IMHO it's a deliberate attempt to make the Dalish out to be monsters and to retcon how the Dalish handle mages in order to make the Templars and circle system look better.  What's worse is that even if you happen to be Dalish, you can't correct this which makes me think that the lore was indeed changed so all Dalish clans did this.

[robertthebard]

The problem isn't just Viv.  Essentially we get several difference sources within DAI that all say the say thing:  If you are a mage too many, then you get left to die by the Dalish.  IMHO it's a deliberate attempt to make the Dalish out to be monsters and to retcon how the Dalish handle mages in order to make the Templars and circle system look better.  What's worse is that even if you happen to be Dalish, you can't correct this which makes me think that the lore was indeed changed so all Dalish clans did this.

What lore was changed? Can you provide some codex entries that what we're presented is supposed to be a retcon of? Of note, the clan in Nature of the Beast may well be down to two mages by the time you do Wynne's personal quest, so adding that mage may just bring them back to three, since Zathrien can be dead by then.

[IanPolaris]

What lore was changed? Can you provide some codex entries that what we're presented is supposed to be a retcon of? Of note, the clan in Nature of the Beast may well be down to two mages by the time you do Wynne's personal quest, so adding that mage may just bring them back to three, since Zathrien can be dead by then.

Merrill's Codex entry for one.  Also Lanaya strongly implies there were several (as in more than one other) candidate for first and she had to earn it.  Not only that but in DAO Zathrien's clan has four mages in it.  At best it avoids being a retcon by only the barest of technicalities, but in fact it's completely contrary to how the Dalish and magic (and Mages) have interacted in all prior games and lore.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Which is still 10 times better then DA2 made either the mages or the templars look.

 

Horrible writing isn't a good excuse for MORE horrible writing. And at least DA2 had the whole 'Enigma of Kirkwall' weirdness, flimsy and underdeveloped as it was.

 

The whole thing is just too unbelievable unless you're an INCREDIBLE cynic. We're suddenly told, after two games with no mention of this, that Dalish abandon excess mage children in the wild to their own fate and the Dalish people just...go along with this cruel, unnecessary and wildly irrational act? What the **** do the parents of the children say? Why aren't Dalish couples frightened to have children in case they're mages and they're forced to leave them for dead? Why, in two games heavy on lore and dialogue, has NO-ONE mentioned this? It's a pretty big deal. As you stated, the Dalish were presented in a more positive light in past games, so the writers decided they needed to be more 'grey' and ended up putting idiotic **** in that pushes the boundaries of the integrity of the established lore. I'm not railing against this revelation because I'm a huge Dalish fanboy and I want them to be the idyllic society I envision. I'm railing against it because...well...it's dumb 

[KillTheLastRomantic]

In fact, if this was REALLY an issue, wouldn't the Dalish just be like 'Hmm. We can't handle all these mages. Let's send some of them to the circle. At least they stand a chance of life there.' Instead of 'Oh, ****. Another mage kid. Leave it in the woods. It's so morally ambiguous!'

[robertthebard]

Merrill's Codex entry for one.  Also Lanaya strongly implies there were several (as in more than one other) candidate for first and she had to earn it.  Not only that but in DAO Zathrien's clan has four mages in it.  At best it avoids being a retcon by only the barest of technicalities, but in fact it's completely contrary to how the Dalish and magic (and Mages) have interacted in all prior games and lore.

Where are those mages when we get there? I'm not sure I even saw three, Zathrian and the First, initially, and then Wynne's personal quest. Of note here is that Lanaya isn't even born to the clan, according to her back story.

Merrill's Codex indicates that she was the third child born with magic in her clan and was given to the Sabrae clan. Nothing indicates that there were more than three mages in either clan.

[IanPolaris]

Where are those mages when we get there? I'm not sure I even saw three, Zathrian and the First, initially, and then Wynne's personal quest. Of note here is that Lanaya isn't even born to the clan, according to her back story.

Merrill's Codex indicates that she was the third child born with magic in her clan and was given to the Sabrae clan. Nothing indicates that there were more than three mages in either clan.

 

Yes it does.  It indicates that the number of mages in the dalish are decreasing, that mage children are considered a precious resource, and that clans with more mage children foster them out to those that don't have enough.  All of this contraindicates any notion of "leaving a mage child out in the woods to starve".  Also Dalish clans do congregate once a decade or so, so they aren't completely isolated.

 

As for Zathrien's clan, the Halla Herder (Elnorra I think) is a mage.  If you fight that clan, she can and does huck fireballs at you, and that's kinda hard unless you are a mage.  So that's four.  [Zathrien, Lanaya, Elnorra (sp?), and Anerin]

[robertthebard]

Yes it does.  It indicates that the number of mages in the dalish are decreasing, that mage children are considered a precious resource, and that clans with more mage children foster them out to those that don't have enough.  All of this contraindicates any notion of "leaving a mage child out in the woods to starve".  Also Dalish clans do congregate once a decade or so, so they aren't completely isolated.
 
As for Zathrien's clan, the Halla Herder (Elnorra I think) is a mage.  If you fight that clan, she can and does huck fireballs at you, and that's kinda hard unless you are a mage.  So that's four.  [Zathrien, Lanaya, Elnorra (sp?), and Anerin]

I linked the codex entry in my post, what did I miss?

[leaguer of one]

The problem isn't just Viv.  Essentially we get several difference sources within DAI that all say the say thing:  If you are a mage too many, then you get left to die by the Dalish.  IMHO it's a deliberate attempt to make the Dalish out to be monsters and to retcon how the Dalish handle mages in order to make the Templars and circle system look better.  What's worse is that even if you happen to be Dalish, you can't correct this which makes me think that the lore was indeed changed so all Dalish clans did this.

it's not a retcon because nothing before states they did not do it.

[leaguer of one]

Yes it does.  It indicates that the number of mages in the dalish are decreasing, that mage children are considered a precious resource, and that clans with more mage children foster them out to those that don't have enough.  All of this contraindicates any notion of "leaving a mage child out in the woods to starve".  Also Dalish clans do congregate once a decade or so, so they aren't completely isolated.

 

 

No it doesn't . You need proof for your speculation. Stop using that as a fact.

[Margelli]

Do First's HAVE to be mages? Sorry if that is a silly question! And maybe its different for different clan's? Some more welcoming to mages than others?

[leaguer of one]

Do First's HAVE to be mages? Sorry if that is a silly question! And maybe its different for different clan's? Some more welcoming to mages than others?

Yes. Keepers and first must be mages.