236 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

I've never gotten the impression that Aenerin is part of Zathrian's clan. I've always assumed that he was still an outsider; just an apostate who lives near them.

[IanPolaris]

I've never gotten the impression that Aenerin is part of Zathrian's clan. I've always assumed that he was still an outsider; just an apostate who lives near them.

He has the vasalin (spelling) that mark him as an adult member of the clan, he joined that clan right after he eluded the Templars (who left him for dead), and he certainly didn't give them to himself (nor would he have gotten them in the circle!)  What's more the members of the clan accept him and say they adopted him years ago, but he has a preference for being alone.  I got every impression that Anerin was part of the clan.

[IanPolaris]

No it doesn't . You need proof for your speculation. Stop using that as a fact.

 

Like I said, ALL the prior lore up to DAI had the Dalish take a very accepting view of magic and Merrill's codex entry is just one more example of it.  You can deny and deny all you like, but this IS a major (and IMO stupid) change in the lore, and if it isn't technically a retcon, it fails only if you hold to the most stringent, and narrow definition of the term.  It is most certainly a radical and unwelcome change to the Dalish, and I doubt the motive of those that did it.

[berelinde]

Who's that?  I just went onto the DA wiki and couldn't find her. 

 

 

I think we are on to something here.  Are you reading this Bioware?  Hire us! 

I forget her exact name, but I remember that it began with a V and reminded me vaguely of Velanna. That wasn't it, but that's what the shape of the name reminded me of. I'll load an old DA2 save that has Merrill's clan spared and go find her. She was probably older than Marethari and had the "dead eyes" eye texture, I remember that.

[Elfyoth]

If your inquisitor is an elf you learn that the rule for every clan - no more then 3 mages within one clan (Keeper included). Nothing like this was ever mentioned before or am I wrong? Merrill mentioned once that at some point every elf had a bit of magic and I had an impression, that many elves still have magical abilities to some degree and Keeper can choose the most gifted as the First from a big lot.

So, is it some new addition (because it was never openly discussed in previous games) or is it a pure retcone? Or may be it was mentioned in some books\comics?

 

Yes BUT, an Elves inquisitor can say to Minave his clan found other ways. 

[IanPolaris]

Yes BUT, an Elves inquisitor can say to Minave his clan found other ways. 

 

Unfortunately that's the only opportunity that even a Dalish Inquisitor has to speak out against this new lore.

[leaguer of one]

Like I said, ALL the prior lore up to DAI had the Dalish take a very accepting view of magic and Merrill's codex entry is just one more example of it.  You can deny and deny all you like, but this IS a major (and IMO stupid) change in the lore, and if it isn't technically a retcon, it fails only if you hold to the most stringent, and narrow definition of the term.  It is most certainly a radical and unwelcome change to the Dalish, and I doubt the motive of those that did it.

Dude, accepting does not mean has no cation. Try again. Show real proof.

[IanPolaris]

Dude, accepting does not mean has no cation. Try again. Show real proof.

 

It has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt that the Dalish attitude towards mages and magic is radically different in DAI than in all other prior games.  At this point you are relying on technicalities because you don't want to admit that an effective retcon (whether or not it qualifies under the most technical definition or not) is fact a retcon.  What's more, there is no proof you are willing to accept so there is really no point in continuing the conversation with you.

[leaguer of one]

It has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt that the Dalish attitude towards mages and magic is radically different in DAI than in all other prior games.  At this point you are relying on technicalities because you don't want to admit that an effective retcon (whether or not it qualifies under the most technical definition or not) is fact a retcon.  What's more, there is no proof you are willing to accept so there is really no point in continuing the conversation with you.

Again different does not mean no form of regulation. They respect magic but understand it dangerous. Each keeper has different degree on how far they will go to with magic and even then the clan still use cation. Sorry, but your points are just leaps and assumption. Show real proof.

[IanPolaris]

Again different does not mean no form of regulation. They respect magic but understand it dangerous. Each keeper has different degree on how far they will go to with magic and even then the clan still use cation. Sorry, but your points are just leaps and assumption. Show real proof.

 

Again, no one ever claimed that the Dalish didn't regulate magic.  However, IMHO this is a very blunt (and clumsy) attempt to "lower" the Dalish way of handling mages to the level of everyone else and it doesn't jibe with the existing lore on the Dalish.  Numerous examples have shown this.

 

There is no REAL proof you are willing to accept if you aren't willing to accept the actual game dialog and codex entries prior to DAI that show a very accepting and harmonious relationship between mages and non-mages within the Dalish.  I say that without making any commentary about Dalish morality in any other way since the other society we see that works very well with a similiar level of acceptance are the cultists of Haven (in DAO) who were *not* nice people.

 

IMHO this was a blatant retcon done to make the Templars look better and no other reason....and the lore and game experience prior to DAI backs this up.  However, since you've already been unwilling to accept that as "proof" or accept anything short of the most narrow and technical definition of 'retcon' I think we are done talking.

[leaguer of one]

Again, no one ever claimed that the Dalish didn't regulate magic.  However, IMHO this is a very blunt (and clumsy) attempt to "lower" the Dalish way of handling mages to the level of everyone else and it doesn't jibe with the existing lore on the Dalish.  Numerous examples have shown this.

 

There is no REAL proof you are willing to accept if you aren't willing to accept the actual game dialog and codex entries prior to DAI that show a very accepting and harmonious relationship between mages and non-mages within the Dalish.  I say that without making any commentary about Dalish morality in any other way since the other society we see that works very well with a similiar level of acceptance are the cultists of Haven (in DAO) who were *not* nice people.

 

IMHO this was a blatant retcon done to make the Templars look better and no other reason....and the lore and game experience prior to DAI backs this up.  However, since you've already been unwilling to accept that as "proof" or accept anything short of the most narrow and technical definition of 'retcon' I think we are done talking.

Hey, it nothing like that at all. We always see no more the 2 mages in a clan in da. Always. Them saying it now is not  something that just showed up. It was already there just no detail were ever given. They even trade mages if they have too much.

 

Sorry, but you clearly don't know what speculation is. You reasoning to you conlusion has no proof, it's never stated or shown. And your even using proof that has no relation to one another. Yes, they respect magic but they don't blindly nurture it with no control and the fact that there are no a horde of mages with the dalish during a boom of mages being born make it clear they are doing something to regulate the mages. Added that every clan is different in what degree they do it.

 

Sorry, but this is not a retcon. Understand that a retcon is a change to what was previously stated before. Nothing contradict this at all in the lore before this. The fact that you are the only one that does not see this make it clear this is not a retcon.

[IanPolaris]

My response in italics

 

Hey, it nothing like that at all. We always see no more the 2 mages in a clan in da. Always. Them saying it now is not  something that just showed up. It was already there just no detail were ever given. They even trade mages if they have too much.

 

Not so.  Elhorra the Halla keeper is a mage in Zathrien's clan, and Anerin is a clan member as well (he was given the Valasin(sp?) which marks him as an adult member of the clan).  We also have the testimony of both Lanaya and Merrill that clearly show more than two mages.  So you are wrong, but you refuse to accept this.  This isn't just speculation either.  If you fight Zathrien's clan, you fight more than two mages.  This is actual game data.

 

Sorry, but you clearly don't know what speculation is. You reasoning to you conlusion has no proof, it's never stated or shown. And your even using proof that has no relation to one another. Yes, they respect magic but they don't blindly nurture it with no control and the fact that there are no a horde of mages with the dalish during a boom of mages being born make it clear they are doing something to regulate the mages. Added that every clan is different in what degree they do it.

 

I have shown proof as have other posters that the notion that the Dalish would literally throw mage children to the wolves is completely contrary with all the lore (esp Merrill's codex entry) of the Dalish to this point, but you refuse to accept this data either.

 

Sorry, but this is not a retcon. Understand that a retcon is a change to what was previously stated before. Nothing contradict this at all in the lore before this. The fact that you are the only one that does not see this make it clear this is not a retcon.

 

Of course it's a retcon and a pretty clumsy and stupid one.  Prior to DAI, we had consistant lore over two and a half games (counting DAA as a half game) that depicted the Dalish Culture in a particular way including accepting mage children (even in a half-breed child in one case!) and valuing magic, and now we are told that the Dalish will literally throw such children away to be eaten (or starve) in the wilderness???  That is a clear change and thus a retcon at least in spirit.  You are relying on the barest of technicalities and I don't respect that.  If it looks like a retcon, sounds like a retcon, and feels like a retcon......it's probably a retcon.

[leaguer of one]

My response in italics

And my response as stated before to that..

 

"Sorry, but you clearly don't know what speculation is. You reasoning to you conclusion has no proof, it's never stated or shown. And your even using proof that has no relation to one another. Yes, they respect magic but they don't blindly nurture it with no control and the fact that there are no a hordes of mages with the dalish during a boom of mages being born make it clear they are doing something to regulate the mages. Added that every clan is different in what degree they do it.

 

Sorry, but this is not a retcon. Understand that a retcon is a change to what was previously stated before. Nothing contradict this at all in the lore before this. The fact that you are the only one that does not see this make it clear this is not a retcon."

[IanPolaris]

And my response as stated before to that..

 

"Sorry, but you clearly don't know what speculation is. You reasoning to you conclusion has no proof, it's never stated or shown. And your even using proof that has no relation to one another. Yes, they respect magic but they don't blindly nurture it with no control and the fact that there are no a hordes of mages with the dalish during a boom of mages being born make it clear they are doing something to regulate the mages. Added that every clan is different in what degree they do it.

 

Sorry, but this is not a retcon. Understand that a retcon is a change to what was previously stated before. Nothing contradict this at all in the lore before this. The fact that you are the only one that does not see this make it clear this is not a retcon."

 

I am not the only one that is calling this a retcon, and even I am admitting that you may be correct but only in the barest and most technical sense (which I don't respect).  It seems clear that even if it's not a technical retcon (and I dispute even this), it certainly falls just short of it being a radical and unwelcome change in the cultural lore of the Dalish and how they handle magic...and IMHO it was done by the Devs specifically to make the Templars look better.  I note (and Mother Giselle admits this) that Andraste herself wanted humanity as a whole to adopt a Dalish-type way of dealing with magic (as in mages and non-mages should live side by side).

 

I and others have cited numerous parts of game lore including codex entries and game data that show that the Dalish were protrayed one way before DAI and another way during it.  Seems like a de-facto retcon to me even if you might argue it de-jure.

[leaguer of one]

I am not the only one that is calling this a retcon, and even I am admitting that you may be correct but only in the barest and most technical sense (which I don't respect).  It seems clear that even if it's not a technical retcon (and I dispute even this), it certainly falls just short of it being a radical and unwelcome change in the cultural lore of the Dalish and how they handle magic...and IMHO it was done by the Devs specifically to make the Templars look better.  I note (and Mother Giselle admits this) that Andraste herself wanted humanity as a whole to adopt a Dalish-type way of dealing with magic (as in mages and non-mages should live side by side).

 

I and others have cited numerous parts of game lore including codex entries and game data that show that the Dalish were protrayed one way before DAI and another way during it.  Seems like a de-facto retcon to me even if you might argue it de-jure.

more like something you don't like that's added. Sorry, just because you don't like it does not make the story worse. It just done to show that everyone has a bad side and that is what  bw theme for making every group and character. Add, every clan is different and may not go that extreme. Remember saying that all clans do this is like saying all dalish are ruthless murderers. The fereldin and free marcher clans are no where near like the aventian clans. They even have different regulations with magic like the saber clans no policy on working with demons and blood magic and the clan in masked empire willingness to try to control and exploit a demon.

 

Being respectful to magic does not mean your going to have the best way regulate it. Even more so if your people are a bunch of scattered clan with there own way of doing things.

[Baboontje]

Slightly off topic, but am I the only one who finds it odd that the Warden's last name was Mahariel but the clan's name is Sabrae? In contrast to the Inquisitor who's last name matches that of the clan and its Keeper?

[IanPolaris]

more like something you don't like that's added. Sorry, just because you don't like it does not make the story worse. It just done to show that everyone has a bad side and that is what  bw theme for making every group and character. Add, every clan is different and may not go that extreme. Remember saying that all clans do this is like saying all dalish are ruthless murderers. The fereldin and free marcher clans are no where near like the aventian clans. They even have different regulations with magic like the saber clans no policy on working with demons and blood magic and the clan in masked empire willingness to try to control and exploit a demon.

 

Being respectful to magic does not mean your going to have the best way regulate it. Even more so if your people are a bunch of scattered clan with there own way of doing things.

 

This isn't about "like" or "dislike" and if new information directly (or even indirectly) contradicts existing lore in an irresolvable way (and this does) then it's a retcon, and IMHO it was done specifically to make the Dalish look bad when it comes to how to handle mages.

 

I don't think there's much point in continuing this, since it's obvious to me (and many others), and you either can't see this, or (worse IMHO) actually LIKE the fact that Dalish now throw mage children to the wolves (literally).

[In Exile]

Not necessarily. If they send out 'extra' mages, then when Lanaya and the others were up for the First position, Anaya was given the position, Elora was kept as the 'spare', and the rest left the clan. It's possible it went down this way and it wouldn't break the established lore.

But the person we're talking about in DAI was evicted as a child. Lanaya makes it sound like this was an involved process when she was a young adult. That failing to be first means you're sent off into the wild to fend for yourself is an unbelievably dark ending that contrasts pretty strongly with the tenor of the story we got in DAO, which was just Lanaya rubbing it in their face.

[In Exile]

Like I said, ALL the prior lore up to DAI had the Dalish take a very accepting view of magic and Merrill's codex entry is just one more example of it. You can deny and deny all you like, but this IS a major (and IMO stupid) change in the lore, and if it isn't technically a retcon, it fails only if you hold to the most stringent, and narrow definition of the term. It is most certainly a radical and unwelcome change to the Dalish, and I doubt the motive of those that did it.

It's very much in the spirit of what the Dalish do. Again, this is a group of people whose religious views involve a form of racism so virulent that IRL only actual hate groups have anything equivalent. The Dalish generally act haughty and prideful but not too extreme, until you get to their leadership who are all balls-to-the-wall insane.

Zathrian perpetrated the worst and most abusive fraud on his people's belief (pretending to be immortal) while torturing the innocent descendant of some terrible humans for generations. Even when his own people where dying, he preferred to let them suffer and die under his own curse. He even tried to exploit the GWs *during a blight*. That's vile.

Marethari didn't just exile Merrill when she disagreed. She spread such vicious lies about her that her entire clan treated her like *poison*. Pol chose to run away and risk death rather than even be *near* her.

Then we have the Dalish clan in TME.

These are NOT good people. There is a retcon in the sense that the rule contradicts Lanaya's story, and *maybe* it contradicts the mage lore if you assume there's a lot of anti-mage attitude motivating this, but morally it is ABSOLUTELY in line with what we see the Dalish do and believe.

[In Exile]

He has the vasalin (spelling) that mark him as an adult member of the clan, he joined that clan right after he eluded the Templars (who left him for dead), and he certainly didn't give them to himself (nor would he have gotten them in the circle!) What's more the members of the clan accept him and say they adopted him years ago, but he has a preference for being alone. I got every impression that Anerin was part of the clan.

Hold on a minute. The tattoo marks him as *Dalish* but not as a member of Zathrian's clan. Zathrian's clan wasn't in Ferelden as far as we know when he ran away from the Circle. Remember the Dalish are nomads. He's not proof of the retcon. Lanaya is the proof.

[IanPolaris]

These are NOT good people. There is a retcon in the sense that the rule contradicts Lanaya's story, and *maybe* it contradicts the mage lore if you assume there's a lot of anti-mage attitude motivating this, but morally it is ABSOLUTELY in line with what we see the Dalish do and believe.

 

I will respond to this last paragraph only since it effectively answers the rest.  I was in no way defending the morality of the Dalish, nor was I claiming it was a retcon that was out of character for the Dalish for moral reasons.  In fact if you check a few posts of mine upthread, I directly compare the way the Dalish handled mages prior to DAI to how the "Cultists of Andraste" handled their mages (and I think you'd agree they weren't exactly nice people).

 

I maintain that this was a lore change done to smear the Dalish or more to the point to make the Templars look better by discrediting how the Dalish have handled magic and mages in a way that's completely contrary to all prior games.  That was my point...not that the Dalish were universally good people (although I think you go overboard in your criticism of them...which doesn't mean it's all without merit).

[IanPolaris]

Hold on a minute. The tattoo marks him as *Dalish* but not as a member of Zathrian's clan. Zathrian's clan wasn't in Ferelden as far as we know when he ran away from the Circle. Remember the Dalish are nomads. He's not proof of the retcon. Lanaya is the proof.

 

Somebody gave him the tattoos and within the Dalish, it's a closely guarded and solemn ceremony that marks a member of the clan into adulthood.  What's more we are told that Zathrien's clan comes and goes into the Brecillian forest frequently, and given how long ago it was, his clan very well (and probably was) in Fereldan (which after all is a fairly big place).  Certainly the Dalish around the storyteller's circle regard him as both a friend and a member of the clan, just one that prefers solitude.

[Eveangaline]

It does feel random and seems to contradict what we've seen before. But it could easily be explained as being practiced only by some clans, while the ones we've seen previously don't do it. There are many differences clan to clan after all.

 

Honestly though if I had to guess it was put in so people would stop saying "Why is there any templar/mage conflict at all when the dalish seem to do just fine without templars?" whiiiiich I admit may actually be a necessary lore retcon if they want to keep the mage vs templar plotline a thing.

 

(Am I the only one who does not want the mage vs templar plotline to still be a thing tho?)

[IanPolaris]

It does feel random and seems to contradict what we've seen before. But it could easily be explained as being practiced only by some clans, while the ones we've seen previously don't do it. There are many differences clan to clan after all.

 

Honestly though if I had to guess it was put in so people would stop saying "Why is there any templar/mage conflict at all when the dalish seem to do just fine without templars?" whiiiiich I admit may actually be a necessary lore retcon if they want to keep the mage vs templar plotline a thing.

 

(Am I the only one who does not want the mage vs templar plotline to still be a thing tho?)

 

The only problem here is:

 

1.  The clans meet once every ten years or so, so you have to wonder how different the clans could be especially with a resource as precious as magically gifted children which other clans need (as established by prior lore).

 

2.  It isn't just Minaeve.  We hear this from IB's chargers, Viv, and at least one other source which tells me this isn't isolated to one clan.

 

What's worse in the case of Viv, we aren't even allowed to challenge this.

[Eveangaline]

The only problem here is:

 

1.  The clans meet once every ten years or so, so you have to wonder how different the clans could be especially with a resource as precious as magically gifted children which other clans need (as established by prior lore).

 

2.  It isn't just Minaeve.  We hear this from IB's chargers, Viv, and at least one other source which tells me this isn't isolated to one clan.

 

What's worse in the case of Viv, we aren't even allowed to challenge this.

 

Perhaps the clan or clans that do this are more likely to trade with/interact with humans, and therefor humans tend to ascribe their habits to all dalish, in rumor and what they record about dalish. Which may actually be one reason they do it, less mages when they interact with humans means less likely to attract templars who will go after their keeper.