236 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Perhaps the clan or clans that do this are more likely to trade with/interact with humans, and therefor humans tend to ascribe their habits to all dalish, in rumor and what they record about dalish. Which may actually be one reason they do it, less mages when they interact with humans means less likely to attract templars who will go after their keeper.

 

Maybe, that that seems to be a bit on the thin side for an explanation.  Especially when you get it from three diverse sources that come from diverse parts of Thedas.  Also when IB casually comments that Dalish don't have mages and so don't tolerate more than three mages in a clan, he makes it sound like a universal...and IB is a merc that's been around (not to mention a member of the Ben Hasseth).

 

It smells like a universal change in the Dalish culture, but admittedly DAI doesn't quite say so.

[In Exile]

Somebody gave him the tattoos and within the Dalish, it's a closely guarded and solemn ceremony that marks a member of the clan into adulthood. What's more we are told that Zathrien's clan comes and goes into the Brecillian forest frequently, and given how long ago it was, his clan very well (and probably was) in Fereldan (which after all is a fairly big place). Certainly the Dalish around the storyteller's circle regard him as both a friend and a member of the clan, just one that prefers solitude.

None of that proves anything. He wasn't picked up in the Brecelian Forest as far as we know. Even it if was, that STILL doesn't prove anything.

At most we've got some equivocal evidence and a lot of supposition. That's not proof.

[In Exile]

I will respond to this last paragraph only since it effectively answers the rest. I was in no way defending the morality of the Dalish, nor was I claiming it was a retcon that was out of character for the Dalish for moral reasons. In fact if you check a few posts of mine upthread, I directly compare the way the Dalish handled mages prior to DAI to how the "Cultists of Andraste" handled their mages (and I think you'd agree they weren't exactly nice people).

I maintain that this was a lore change done to smear the Dalish or more to the point to make the Templars look better by discrediting how the Dalish have handled magic and mages in a way that's completely contrary to all prior games. That was my point...not that the Dalish were universally good people (although I think you go overboard in your criticism of them...which doesn't mean it's all without merit).

My point is this: the Dalish morality is dark enough that this is absolutely something that could be a thing that they do without it warranting *any* passing reference or even contradicting their view on mages.

There's no conflict between being a mageocracy like the Dalish and mistreating mages. Tevinter is a mageocracy and they enslaved mages all the time.

The lore change can't smear the Dalish when they were already this terrible. It's entirely consistent with their portrayal.

The only legitimate criticism in terms of the change is suggesting it changed their outlook on magic but as I said, it's just like Tevinter.

[IanPolaris]

I disagree about much of your characterization of the Dalish but that is neither here nor there w/r/t this topic.  I definately think your comparison of them to Tevinter is inaccurate at best.  A better comparison would be to the DAO Haven Cultists if you must have a negative comparison.

 

The point is that the Dalish have consistantly valued magic and magical children until DAI, and that is what makes it a retcon.  As for the rest, I'll agree to disagree (as we have before) because I don't want to derail the thread with our different takes on the Dalish (which isn't the point).

[IanPolaris]

None of that proves anything. He wasn't picked up in the Brecelian Forest as far as we know. Even it if was, that STILL doesn't prove anything.

At most we've got some equivocal evidence and a lot of supposition. That's not proof.

 

 

We have more than that.  He as Vasalin (sp) which makes him as an ADULT of a Dalish clan, and the members of the storyteller's circle in DAO certainly seem to regard him as one of their own.  The Dalish don't hand those tattoos out to just anyone...and that IS in the lore.

[ashwind]

I think DA:I made something clear. The Dalish are not a single people. Each Dalish clan is unique in its own way and hence it is not surprising that we run in to clans with X number of mage rule. 

 

It is only natural since their view of their history and culture is based on the arch-storyteller aka the Keeper who I am certain tells the story differently with each iteration.

[In Exile]

We have more than that. He as Vasalin (sp) which makes him as an ADULT of a Dalish clan, and the members of the storyteller's circle in DAO certainly seem to regard him as one of their own. The Dalish don't hand those tattoos out to just anyone...and that IS in the lore.

He's an adult of *A* Dalish clan. You're not seriously going to argue that Merrill is part of Zathrian's clan because of his vasallin, are you? Of course you're not, because that would be silly.

Having the tatoo proves nothing. The Dalish regard other Dalish as "their own" without regard them as "their clan". It's not proof.

[In Exile]

I disagree about much of your characterization of the Dalish but that is neither here nor there w/r/t this topic. I definately think your comparison of them to Tevinter is inaccurate at best. A better comparison would be to the DAO Haven Cultists if you must have a negative comparison.

The point is that the Dalish have consistantly valued magic and magical children until DAI, and that is what makes it a retcon. As for the rest, I'll agree to disagree (as we have before) because I don't want to derail the thread with our different takes on the Dalish (which isn't the point).

It is the point of the topic. Because, again, you seem to think that the game disparaged the Dalish. But I disagree. And that's quite material. If you're going to say a change was made out of negative animus it's pretty important to prove the supposed disparaging addition is out of character.

As to Tevinter, you've missed the point completely. The analogy isn't that the Dalish are Tevinter. It's that having a *society* that elevates *magic* doesn't mean having a society that elevates *all mages*. The Dalish could value magic, lament the supposed loss of their magical heritage, and STILL treat individual mages like complete crap.

You're acting as if there's a necessary connection between the elevation of magic, the veneration of Keepers, and the treatment of all mages by the Dalish. That just simply doesn't follow.

[IanPolaris]

He's an adult of *A* Dalish clan. You're not seriously going to argue that Merrill is part of Zathrian's clan because of his vasallin, are you? Of course you're not, because that would be silly.

Having the tatoo proves nothing. The Dalish regard other Dalish as "their own" without regard them as "their clan". It's not proof.

 

Having the tattoo by itself, no.  In the context in which he's introduced is quite another matter!  He is introduced as Anerin the healer, Wynne is doubtful that this clan would even know of him, but in fact he's welcome by the clan and they in no way regard him as an exile or anything other than a fellow Dalish that prefers privacy.  It's quite clear in the context of DAO that Anerin is part of Zathrien's clan. 

[IanPolaris]

I think DA:I made something clear. The Dalish are not a single people. Each Dalish clan is unique in its own way and hence it is not surprising that we run in to clans with X number of mage rule. 

 

It is only natural since their view of their history and culture is based on the arch-storyteller aka the Keeper who I am certain tells the story differently with each iteration.

 

Except the way this info is presented does indicate (prior to prior lore) that the three-mage rule is a universal rule w/r/t Dalish clans.

[In Exile]

Having the tattoo by itself, no. In the context in which he's introduced is quite another matter! He is introduced as Anerin the healer, Wynne is doubtful that this clan would even know of him, but in fact he's welcome by the clan and they in no way regard him as an exile or anything other than a fellow Dalish that prefers privacy. It's quite clear in the context of DAO that Anerin is part of Zathrien's clan.

That's not evidence. He's a forest person. He lives apart from the clan in the woods. He makes it apparent he's not just there because he's on a trip or camping. He's known because he inhabits the forest, but again, that's not proof of anything.

We won't get anywhere, because clearly your standard of proof is just lower than mine.

[IanPolaris]

My responses in bold

 

It is the point of the topic. Because, again, you seem to think that the game disparaged the Dalish. But I disagree. And that's quite material. If you're going to say a change was made out of negative animus it's pretty important to prove the supposed disparaging addition is out of character.

 

It is out of character.  I don't care if you like or hate the Dalish (and it's pretty clear you hate them and aren't judging them fairly).  The one thing that's been a constant is that the Dalish not only value magic, but children with the gift and fight to preserve it.  Lanaya makes that clear as does Merrill's codex entry.  Thus throwing a resource (a mage child) literally to the wolves IS OUT OF CHARACTER for the Dalish even if your take on them were completely accurate (a point I dispute).

As to Tevinter, you've missed the point completely. The analogy isn't that the Dalish are Tevinter. It's that having a *society* that elevates *magic* doesn't mean having a society that elevates *all mages*. The Dalish could value magic, lament the supposed loss of their magical heritage, and STILL treat individual mages like complete crap.

 

Yet according to the information about the Dalish we had before, ALL children with magic were considered valuable, and magic was valued.  So your point about Tevinter is completely invalid.  Read Merrill's codex entry again.  Whatever faults the Dalish have (and they do have them), mistreating magically gifted children simply wasn't one of them....until now.  [No, not even Merrill.....and those were extenuating circumstances at the very least!]

You're acting as if there's a necessary connection between the elevation of magic, the veneration of Keepers, and the treatment of all mages by the Dalish. That just simply doesn't follow.

 

Actually I'm not.  I am comparing how the Dalish treated magically gifted members of the clan before with what we are told in DAI, and there is a clear retcon.  I hope we agree at least in this.  IMHO this was done to discredit how the Dalish handed mages to make the Templars look better.

[IanPolaris]

That's not evidence. He's a forest person. He lives apart from the clan in the woods. He makes it apparent he's not just there because he's on a trip or camping. He's known because he inhabits the forest, but again, that's not proof of anything.

We won't get anywhere, because clearly your standard of proof is just lower than mine.

 

There was no indication that Anerin was anything other than a fellow member of the clan that preferred solitude.  The fact he has the tattoos that mark him as an adult member of a Dalish clan cinch this.

[AshenEndymion]

There was no indication that Anerin was anything other than a fellow member of the clan that preferred solitude.  The fact he has the tattoos that mark him as an adult member of a Dalish clan cinch this.

 
Oh, I dunno... When you ask about Aneirin, the response is "Who?  Oh, him.  He lives over there, and he likes to be alone, so we leave him alone."  That doesn't sound like a description of "a fellow member of the clan".
 
The Dalish live as a family.  That Aneirin is living apart from Zathrian's clan indicates that he is not of their clan...  He may have lived among Dalish at some time(even Zathrian's clan).  He may have even been a "full member" of a clan.  But the fact that Aneirin is, at present, living alone with no intention of ever living with the Dalish, indicates that he's not a member of any clan...

[FreshRevenge]

Funny i played Dragon Age Origins a number of times and I never got the impression that you couldn't have too many mages in a clan. I know in Dragon Age 2 Fenyeil was a mage and he was sent to Dalish because he was part dalish.

[Samahl na Revas]

I think DA:I made something clear. The Dalish are not a single people. Each Dalish clan is unique in its own way and hence it is not surprising that we run in to clans with X number of mage rule. 

 

It is only natural since their view of their history and culture is based on the arch-storyteller aka the Keeper who I am certain tells the story differently with each iteration.

 

Yep, and the differences between the clans is what keeps them apart. During Arlathvhen the clans meet but from the sound of it even this doesn't go well.

[IanPolaris]

 
Oh, I dunno... When you ask about Aneirin, the response is "Who?  Oh, him.  He lives over there, and he likes to be alone, so we leave him alone."  That doesn't sound like a description of "a fellow member of the clan".
 
The Dalish live as a family.  That Aneirin is living apart from Zathrian's clan indicates that he is not of their clan...  He may have lived among Dalish at some time(even Zathrian's clan).  He may have even been a "full member" of a clan.  But the fact that Aneirin is, at present, living alone with no intention of ever living with the Dalish, indicates that he's not a member of any clan...

 

That is not at all the impression I get or remember from DAO, and I wonder if what we "learn" in DAI is coloring what you remember (or how you recall it).  Not only does Aneirin have the tattoos that mark him as a full adult, but the response at the storyteller's circle doesn't reflect some stranger they leave alone, but rather a family member that prefers the company of animals and plants to people.  It seems very familial actually and very friendly.....not at all like someone talking about a 'flat ear' or stranger.  Not only that but there is never any indication in ANY of the prior games there was some sort of mage limit and indeed Dalish Clans are on record of adopting and protecting circle mage escapees if they are elven (see Witch Hunt, your Dalish Fighter specifically refers to such).

[Wulfram]

Aneirin isn't impossible to reconcile with the "Rule of 3", since he does say he doesn't count himself one of the dalish, but he also doesn't fit very nicely with it either

Though it's mostly the whole abandoning kids thing. Them getting booted out at adulthood if they haven't been able to find a clan with a spare "slot", so they could look for another clan or just hang around until a vacancy arises I could more or less buy - that way the Dalish aren't exactly throwing away an asset. Though it'd still seem unlikely as a common thing

[daveliam]

Having the tattoo by itself, no.  In the context in which he's introduced is quite another matter!  He is introduced as Anerin the healer, Wynne is doubtful that this clan would even know of him, but in fact he's welcome by the clan and they in no way regard him as an exile or anything other than a fellow Dalish that prefers privacy.  It's quite clear in the context of DAO that Anerin is part of Zathrien's clan. 

There was no indication that Anerin was anything other than a fellow member of the clan that preferred solitude.  The fact he has the tattoos that mark him as an adult member of a Dalish clan cinch this.

 

I'm not saying that you're definitely wrong and we're definitely right, but the fact that there are numerous people here who all interpreted that scene differently than you means that it's certainly not "quite clear" or "cinch(ed)". 

 

 
Oh, I dunno... When you ask about Aneirin, the response is "Who?  Oh, him.  He lives over there, and he likes to be alone, so we leave him alone."  That doesn't sound like a description of "a fellow member of the clan".
 
The Dalish live as a family.  That Aneirin is living apart from Zathrian's clan indicates that he is not of their clan...  He may have lived among Dalish at some time(even Zathrian's clan).  He may have even been a "full member" of a clan.  But the fact that Aneirin is, at present, living alone with no intention of ever living with the Dalish, indicates that he's not a member of any clan...

 

This is always how I read the scene.  He was an apostate who sought out the Dalish.  He found them and was accepted by them.  He received his tattoos marking him as a member of whatever clan he found.  Then he chose to leave that clan and live by himself in the woods.  I have always read the interaction with the storyteller as telling.  They know him, know roughly where he is, but don't claim him as a clan member.  And he doesn't mention the clan once in his conversation with Wynne.  In fact, he even tells her that he would consider returning to the Circle, but can't promise anything.  I genuinely think he's an apostate who is friendly with the Dalish, but prefers not to live with anyone (including them).  Maybe he did consider himself a member of a clan at one point.  I don't see how that means that he is currently a member of any clan, let alone Zathrian's. 

[robertthebard]

But the person we're talking about in DAI was evicted as a child. Lanaya makes it sound like this was an involved process when she was a young adult. That failing to be first means you're sent off into the wild to fend for yourself is an unbelievably dark ending that contrasts pretty strongly with the tenor of the story we got in DAO, which was just Lanaya rubbing it in their face.

You mean the story where the Keeper turned a bunch of humans into werewolves for revenge?

[leaguer of one]

There was no indication that Anerin was anything other than a fellow member of the clan that preferred solitude.  The fact he has the tattoos that mark him as an adult member of a Dalish clan cinch this.

Ok, let's say he is part of the clan....He would be mage number 3 to the no more the 3 mages rule. Added, do you wonder why he says he's not part of the dalish.

[Evamitchelle]

Ok, let's say he is part of the clan....He would be mage number 3 to the no more the 3 mages rule. Added, do you wonder why he says he's not part of the dalish.

 

There are already 3 mages in Zathrian's clan: Zathrian himself, Lanaya and Elora. Aneirin would be number 4.  

[robertthebard]

There are already 3 mages in Zathrian's clan: Zathrian himself, Lanaya and Elora. Aneirin would be number 4.

Can't Zathrian be dead by the time you meet Aneirin? I know, in my case he was, due to the way I ran the treaties down.

[leaguer of one]

Can't Zathrian be dead by the time you meet Aneirin? I know, in my case he was, due to the way I ran the treaties down.

Added, can you still meet the guy if you let the wolves kill the dalish?

[daveliam]

Can't Zathrian be dead by the time you meet Aneirin? I know, in my case he was, due to the way I ran the treaties down.

 

I guess it could work out this way if you avoid Aneirin while going through the forest and then go back in after you kill Zathrian. 

 

Added, can you still meet the guy if you let the wolves kill the dalish?

 

I've never done it, but I would guess no.  You need to talk to Sarel in the camp to trigger Aneirin showing up in the forest.  So if Sarel is dead, you can't trigger his appearance.  Unless you mean, can you talk to Sarel (and trigger his appearance), then go through the forest avoiding Aneirin, side with the werewolves, then go back into the forest to find him?  Not sure.