236 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

I guess it could work out this way if you avoid Aneirin while going through the forest and then go back in after you kill Zathrian. 
 
 
I've never done it, but I would guess no.  You need to talk to Sarel in the camp to trigger Aneirin showing up in the forest.  So if Sarel is dead, you can't trigger his appearance.  Unless you mean, can you talk to Sarel (and trigger his appearance), then go through the forest avoiding Aneirin, side with the werewolves, then go back into the forest to find him?  Not sure.

I don't recall if he's even there if you haven't started Wynne's personal quest or not...

[llandwynwyn]

I'm going to be honest, no.

I always thought it weird that there were so few mages with the Dalish, even in DAO, and that the 'few are born' was also suspicious when we know that elves have a genetic predisposition to magic compared to other races.

For some clans to have a shortage while others have enough to spare indicated different forms of magic control done by them.

[NRieh]

 

IMHO this was a blatant retcon done to make the Templars look better

While I can't say that I love the change, I don't see how could it possibly 'make Templars look better'. We've had DA2, we've had Asunder, we've had all those nice letters about torturing lyrium-addicts + banters + Cole's story.  They need much more than a single Dalish girl tossed out into the forest to compensate those. 

 

Also, about Fenryel. He's a rather special snowflake with all his 'Dreamer' skills, I don't think it's possible to compare him to the rest of the known 'simple' elven\Dalish mages. 

[IanPolaris]

While I can't say that I love the change, I don't see how could it possibly 'make Templars look better'. We've had DA2, we've had Asunder, we've had all those nice letters about torturing lyrium-addicts + banters + Cole's story.  They need much more than a single Dalish girl tossed out into the forest to compensate those. 

 

Also, about Fenryel. He's a rather special snowflake with all his 'Dreamer' skills, I don't think it's possible to compare him to the rest of the known 'simple' elven\Dalish mages. 

 

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better.  Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations.  That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe.  In fact I would argue (and I have before) that the very fact that civilization was able to arise at all is a strong indication that mages aren't nearly as dangerous as advertised and that a Templar type order isn't in fact necessary.

 

If that's so, the the entire Templar v Mage plot is short circuited.  Can't have that.  Hence the retcon.

[Chari]

Yeah, it was

Contradicting everything said in previous games

Then again when did Bioware care about DA lore consistency? They care more about their new hobby - villainizing the dalish and shitting on the elves

[Laughing_Man]

Yeah, it's probably a retcon, and not the first one either. But to be honest, I care about it a lot less than I did in the past.

 

Today I'm more liable to say: **** it, take your retcons and shove them up your chimney. I'll substitute my own head-canon instead.

[Patchwork]

While I can't say that I love the change, I don't see how could it possibly 'make Templars look better'. We've had DA2, we've had Asunder, we've had all those nice letters about torturing lyrium-addicts + banters + Cole's story.  They need much more than a single Dalish girl tossed out into the forest to compensate those. 

 

Also, about Fenryel. He's a rather special snowflake with all his 'Dreamer' skills, I don't think it's possible to compare him to the rest of the known 'simple' elven\Dalish mages. 

 

Marethari took him on thinking he was an ordinary mage it's only years later that she realises he's Dreamer and needs more than she can give him. Being a mage and elf blooded is enough to get Feynriel into the clan. 

 

But of course Sabrae has always been short on mages, without Merrill Marethari might have just been desperate for a new successor. 

 

In a small community like dalish clans and chasind tribes free mages work because they're out numbered and surrounded by people who are important to the mage. There's less abominations because saying yes to a demon means putting the people the mage loves in danger. For the most part, there's bound to be some mages who don't care or still say yes for other reasons.  

That's not a system that can work on a larger scale, there needs to be somewhere like a Circle, however it's organised, in order for a mage to safely learn. I wish DAI had gone with that angle instead of tearing down the dalish in the way it did. 

[MoonDrummer]

It doesn't make much sense to me.

The Dalish have always been lovey dovey with eachother, so for them to all of a sudden just chuck some kid out to die in the wilderness is a bit out I character.

The fact that every clan we have encountered has only had 2 mages would suggest that the dalish actually have a demand for them.

IMO it was done to help Vivienne's argument about restoring circle.

[Ashagar]

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better.  Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations.  That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe.  In fact I would argue (and I have before) that the very fact that civilization was able to arise at all is a strong indication that mages aren't nearly as dangerous as advertised and that a Templar type order isn't in fact necessary.

 

If that's so, the the entire Templar v Mage plot is short circuited.  Can't have that.  Hence the retcon.

 

There is lore in previous games about the dalish and abominations which stated that keepers had become abominations before and their entire clan have to try kill their own keeper when it does happen. Then there are the ancient Avvar of vigil's keep who had their shaman become a abomination and finally had to get the help of the dwarves to stop it. 

 

That doesn't sound like there no need of warriors who know how to fight abaminaitons and demons to me, not to mention even without abominations there is the matter of blood magic.

[In Exile]

You mean the story where the Keeper turned a bunch of humans into werewolves for revenge?

Oh, Zathrian is a malevolent loon. But Lanaya doesn't sound like she's saying she was raised by an abusive father who made her compete with other children for the honour not to starve to death in a forest.

[In Exile]

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better. Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations. That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe. In fact I would argue (and I have before) that the very fact that civilization was able to arise at all is a strong indication that mages aren't nearly as dangerous as advertised and that a Templar type order isn't in fact necessary.

If that's so, the the entire Templar v Mage plot is short circuited. Can't have that. Hence the retcon.

How do you explain Tevinter? Mages living side by side without abominations and without templars. Bioware - if anything - rehabilitated the image of the mageocracy. Dorian's arguments - that Tevinter's greatest excesses are exaggerated and that that southern Thedas has its own abusive institutions - is clearly meant to illustrate that part of it.

Regardless of whether there is a hard "Rule of 3" in Dalish clans there was NO WAY based on DAO we had what were equivalents of actual Circle Towers worth of Dalish mages. You could stretch it based on what Lanaya said that a clan had up to 5-7 mages - a big enough group for her to compete with for Keeper - but absolutely nothing on the scale you're suggesting.

[In Exile]

My responses in bold

Its not really possible for me to respond to your post on my phone since your post doesn't really show up in the quote. However you mistake the lore.

The Dalish trading mages around like *propety* doesn't suggest they value them as people. It's the opposite. This is a culture that endorses ripping children away from their family like they were perishables because another group is short on apples. Treating people live resources doesn't mean valuing their personhood - it's the opposite.

Combined with what we've seen about Dalish brutality in their leadership, and regardless of how caring the Dalish are to each other forest exile becomes much more plausible on their moral compass.

There's a retcon here in terms of an absolute cap. But that doesn't portray the Dalish in a worse light.

[TEWR]

I feel like people throw the word 'retcon' around when it's not applicable.  Unless the new information directly conflicts with and explains away a previously established fact, I don't see it as a 'retcon'.  I see it as adding in detail to the world.

 

While I agree that retcon is used far too liberally, in this case it's... well, what Patchwork said because it was firmly established from DAII that the Dalish trade extra mages around between clans. And if you fight the Dalish in DAO, I'm pretty sure they had more then three mages. I know Lanaya, Elora, and Zathrian were among them, but if Lanaya competed with others it implies the clan had more mages (though they could've been swapped around).

 

While the Dalish have many faults, I very much doubt any clan other then outright dumbasses would even think of doing something like this to a child. Casting her out into the wild with no survival training or magical training and only a few days of supplies.

 

Still, this is probably an isolated clan being dickish.

 

Not that I accept it, personally, in my universe. It exists purely to make the Dalish seem "bad" in the minds of players, because some people will take the actions of one clan and apply it wholesale.

[NotBeouwulf]

It might not be a retcon. It's stated numerous times there is a great diversity in Dalish Clans. Some may follow the strict rule of three and exile extra mages. The elf in the chargers, the researcher, and the ones Vivenne would interact with would come from this tradition hence them not being with the Dalish. Others may split their clan when there are extra mages, thus explaining the multitude of clans. Some may keep them till the next meeting and trade them around. Finally there may be outliers like Zethrans clan that keep unlimited mages. Zethran is a special case remember as many believe he was rediscovering the Elvhen secrets.

They can still respect mages with the rule of three, but practicalities must remain.

[TEWR]

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better.  Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations. 

 

Well, Merrill does say it's happened, that some mages within the clan have become possessed.

[TEWR]

Yeah, it's probably a retcon, and not the first one either. But to be honest, I care about it a lot less than I did in the past.

 

Today I'm more liable to say: **** it, take your retcons and shove them up your chimney. I'll substitute my own head-canon instead.

 

Same.

[NotBeouwulf]

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better.  Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations.  That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe.  In fact I would argue (and I have before) that the very fact that civilization was able to arise at all is a strong indication that mages aren't nearly as dangerous as advertised and that a Templar type order isn't in fact necessary.
 
If that's so, the the entire Templar v Mage plot is short circuited.  Can't have that.  Hence the retcon.

Did you a actually play DA?

Because it mentions that keepers occasionally become abominations and the clan has to hunt them down

[NRieh]

 

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better. Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations.  That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe.

Still does not work for me.

They do not need Templars not because they are somehow immune or tolerant to the demons, but because to the Dalish all of their clan are supposed to be their 'Templars'. They respect their mages, they take care about them, they may even eventually drive the real Templars away from their camp (DA2, visit the camp after Fenryel is accepted) etc.

But  the Keeper or an apprentice mage - a wrong step guarantees that one is taken down, (which is supposed to be an act of mercy, by the way, not some sort of holy revenge).

 

As I've told - I don't see why would this inner Dalish issue affect the whole Mage-Templar conflict. It's neither pro-mage nor pro-templar.

[NRieh]

 

But of course Sabrae has always been short on mages, without Merrill Marethari might have just been desperate for a new successor.

I can't imagine Fenryel becoming a Keeper, no matter how hard I try. A half-blood human Keeper?.. I doubt she had such intentions for him. 

[LobselVith8]

I'll explain why I think it was done to make the Templars look better.  Until now, the Dalish have had mages live side by side with mundanes with no apparent problems with abominations.  That being so, the very existence of the Dalish puts severe doubt that the Templars are even necessary or that Mages are as "dangerous" as the Chanty and Templars would have you believe.  In fact I would argue (and I have before) that the very fact that civilization was able to arise at all is a strong indication that mages aren't nearly as dangerous as advertised and that a Templar type order isn't in fact necessary.

 

If that's so, the the entire Templar v Mage plot is short circuited.  Can't have that.  Hence the retcon.

 

True. What made the Dalish stand out is how they had an opposing view to magic and mages than the one espoused by the Chantry of Andraste. The lore mentions that abominations are rare, and Merrill says that an abomination is hunted down by the clan when an elven mage is possessed, so even the threat of an abomination didn't cause the Dalish to vilify magic or mages. As Merrill says, "Magic is a gift of the Creators", while many Andrastians seem to view magic as a curse in Origins, Dragon Age II, and Inquisition.

 

The recton with three mages doesn't really make sense when you consider Zathrian's clan had more than three mages at one point, and Ariane's clan welcomed a Circle mage into their midst. As Merrill's codex reads, "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

[Ryriena]

Why would a clan that treated eveyone as family kick out a child with no survival skills after saying the clans trade extra Mages to other clans in the Clan meetings they have every ten years? This was not done in two other games and contradicts the sprit of the Dalish that we have seen in the other two games, if it's not a retcon then it was poorly done in implying it through the games lore.

Merill codex entree states they traded her because the clan would've had no Keeper, and they also highly valued children with magic in their clans for this reason. Not once was it said they had a rule of three Mages before DA:I come in too play, and I have read the codex in DA:O and DA:2

They also really over did the lore bashing of the Dalish to a laughable point to me in DA:I to make the Chantry look better. And I am not a Dalish fan girl I just call it like I see it.

[errantknight]

This information doesn't contradict anything. We've never seen more than three mages per clan and usually fewer

[Ryriena]

This information doesn't contradict anything. We've never seen more than three mages per clan and usually fewer

That's because magic was dying out in the Elves.

[Mann42]

Inquisition is the first time we (as players) are exposed to Orlais directly, so I'm wondering*...

 

What if the rule of 3 is something more common among Dalish clans in Orlesian territories? With Orlais being the seat of the Chantry, the Dalish clans in this region would be under much greater scrutiny than those in Ferelden or the Free Marches. As such, they may need to actively reduce the number of magic users in their ranks to keep the full wrath of the Templar Order from coming down on them.

 

If the rule is something only common among Orlesian Dalish, it doesn't conflict with the mage shortage among the Dalish in the Free Marches, nor does it conflict with what we know of the Dalish clan we meet in Ferelden. Despite the clans meeting once in a while, they are still subject to their own local circumstances. It might not necessarily be a ret-con, but a clarification of customs among one or more clans in Orlais.

 

*I have not dug into the codexes or lore on this in significant depth so I'm not sure which clans are referenced when this 'rule' comes up.

[LobselVith8]

the outbreak of the exalted march of the dales was red-crossing, which was an incident caused by the elves.  Though the tensions existed prior as the whole situation was a powder keg before the war between Orlais and the Dales. IMO anything would have caused war between them.

 

Actually, Hawen's clan states that the scroll shows them they were wrong because humans and elves were the catalyst for the war between the Dales and Orlais. It's hardly one-sided when the scroll starts out with the murder of an elf by humans, after all.