236 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish have unspeakably racist religious beliefs. It's something that if we just controll-F'd to use IRL groups would sound like something out of a KKK manifesto. They were always dark.

 

That's a rather asinine comparison, even from you. The Dalish try to maintain their culture and religion despite the Chantry outlawing their religion and Andrastian humans either threatening them with violence to convert, or human lords or lynch mobs driving them off land when they stay too long in a particular region. The Dalish - as a culture - want to govern themselves and freely follow their culture and religion without being forced to surrender their traditions and religion.

 

I don't think anyone at Bioware ever wanted to use the Dalish as a positive illustration of anything. In DAO we encounter them debating executing humans.

 

You have Tamlen and Mahariel discussing it when three humans get near their camp, and considering that the Dalish have historically dealt with humans as a threat, I don't see how this vilifies the People. Even Clan Lavellan travel in the Free Marches as a means of avoiding humans attacking them. Lavellan's clan "travel along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities."

 

We meet Zathrian penetrate a blood mage curse on now innocent people, selfishly mislead and abuse the trust of his people when it comes to the most sacred tenents of their belief, and attempts to manipulate the GWs into hiding the fact that it's his fault his people are dying.

 

You mean you have a man who cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, a fact you left out because you want to intentionally distort the context of why Zathrian has such hatred in his heart. That doesn't excuse what he does, but it's hardly as one-sided as you're disingenuously trying to make it out to seem.

 

The Dalish were never portrayed in a favourable or even mixed light.

 

A Dalish clan took in an abandoned human child and raised her into Aveline, who irrevocably changed the lives of women across Thedas for the better. The Dalish clans signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens to aid them during a Blight, despite having lost their homeland to humanity and having little incentive to sign the treaty. Zathrian's clan and other clans are willing to abide by the treaty, once the crisis is over. Velanna's clan remarks positively when they see Velanna in the company of humans.

 

As long as they survive, Clan Lavellan rescue the humans who are poisoned with red lyrium, and refuse to leave the city-state because the Andrastian elves are in danger from Marcher cities - despite being able to leave, the clan refuses to do so because the Andrastian elves have no one to protect them except Clan Lavellan.

[Beaubier]

I don't think the three mages business is explicitly a retcon, but it's clunky, doesn't fit in very well with what's been previously established, and doesn't even add up very well for reasons that range from genetic diversity and population control to plain common sense, imo. Plus the delivery of the info (over and over again) is another instance of making it look like outsiders know more about Dalish culture than the Dalish Inquisitor.

 

Not a fan and will probably be treating it as an old rule that only the extremist asshats pay any heed to.

[Ogillardetta]

I don't think the three mages business is explicitly a retcon, but it's clunky, doesn't fit in very well with what's been previously established, and doesn't even add up very well for reasons that range from genetic diversity and population control to plain common sense, imo. Plus the delivery of the info (over and over again) is another instance of making it look like outsiders know more about Dalish culture than the Dalish Inquisitor.

 

Not a fan and will probably be treating it as an old rule that only the extremist asshats pay any heed to.

But aren't most dalish extremist asshats?

[LobselVith8]

But the person we're talking about in DAI was evicted as a child. Lanaya makes it sound like this was an involved process when she was a young adult. That failing to be first means you're sent off into the wild to fend for yourself is an unbelievably dark ending that contrasts pretty strongly with the tenor of the story we got in DAO, which was just Lanaya rubbing it in their face.

 

Aneirin was welcomed into the clan after he was rescued - as he says, he was taught elven magic and treated as a part of the clan. He says he feels more comfortable out in the forest (where he says he's learned much), but that he follows the clan.

 

It's very much in the spirit of what the Dalish do. Again, this is a group of people whose religious views involve a form of racism so virulent that IRL only actual hate groups have anything equivalent. The Dalish generally act haughty and prideful but not too extreme, until you get to their leadership who are all balls-to-the-wall insane.

 

That's completely ridiculous. There is nothing in their religious views that condones racism against other groups. Merrill was a firm believer in the elven pantheon, and she expressed concern for the Andrastian elves, empathy for the Andrastian humans, and sympathy for the Starkhaven mages. Clan Lavellan is certainly another example, considering that they aid humans and care enough about the Wycome elves to be willing to sacrifice their lives to protect them from the Marchers.

 

You also seem to be criticizing every single Keeper in existence - all across the continent and over the course of centuries since their inception as nomadic tribes - because of the failings of two.

 

Then we have the Dalish clan in TME.

 

Clan Virnehn certainly abandoned the Halamshiral elves, while Clan Lavellan save the Wycome humans and the Wycome elves.

 

These are NOT good people. There is a retcon in the sense that the rule contradicts Lanaya's story, and *maybe* it contradicts the mage lore if you assume there's a lot of anti-mage attitude motivating this, but morally it is ABSOLUTELY in line with what we see the Dalish do and believe.

 

The Dalish are an ethnic group of different people. Some are good, while others are bad. It's no different than any other group who inhabit Thedas. I'd certainly criticize the developers for always putting the worst examples of the Dalish at the forefront (whether it's the games or TME), but there are also good examples of the Dalish as well.

 

As for morally, it doesn't really fit with Merrill's dialogue about how the clans view mages or magic, or her codex entry that mentions how magic is dying out among the Dalish, so that mages are valued. In Inquisition, it comes across like the developers are trying to invalidate the Dalish as an example of free mage society that exists as an alternative to what the Chantry has done with the Circles.

[erilben]

Aneirin says he was welcomed and trained by the Zathrian's clan. He lived with them for years, but now prefers to be alone. He says he always stays close to the clan though. So if Dalish had a 3 mage rule, he would count. He's too close to them.
 

I think Bioware just forgot Elora when they made up the rule for DAI. You don't even learn she's a mage unless you fight the clan.

[LobselVith8]

But aren't most dalish extremist asshats?

 

It's quite unfortunate that some people feel like this - like they think an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children are all the same. In Inquisition, there is a trend of having all the negativity about the Dalish at the forefront, where we have all the characters who talk about the Dalish provide incredibly negative views about them - Solas, Minaeve, Vivienne, the mercenary Dalish - while the positive is relegated to the player who decides to play Lavellan as pro-Dalish, and a series of war table quests that can be easily missed if you make a mistake and get your clan killed. In contrast, we have a plethora of characters who talk rather positively about the Chantry or the Andrastian faith, and we even have a character who tries to persuade Lavellan to follow the Maker if he says he follows his own gods. It's incredibly lopsided.

[Ogillardetta]

It's quite unfortunate that some people feel like this - like they think an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children are all the same. In Inquisition, there is a trend of having all the negativity about the Dalish at the forefront, where we have all the characters who talk about the Dalish provide incredibly negative views about them - Solas, Minaeve, Vivienne, the mercenary Dalish - while the positive is relegated to the player who decides to play Lavellan as pro-Dalish, and a series of war table quests that can be easily missed if you make a mistake and get your clan killed. In contrast, we have a plethora of characters who talk rather positively about the Chantry or the Andrastian faith, and we even have a character who tries to persuade Lavellan to follow the Maker if he says he follows his own gods. It's incredibly lopsided.

The feeling I get from dragon age is that if your dalish then dalish are great people but if youre anyone else then they're not so great. Just look at how Solas was treated when we met that elven lady near the ruins and he is cautious around dalish in general because it seems that most of them do not like flat ears or take kindly to them. The lavellan and DA:O Dalish clans where seemed very nice though but it seems like those are in the minority sadly.
Solas did say that each Dalish clan is its own culture by now so I guess that the level of asshattery varies from not asshats but very kind to complete asshats.

[LobselVith8]

The feeling I get from dragon age is that if your dalish then dalish are great people but if youre anyone else then they're not so great. Just look at how Solas was treated when we met that elven lady near the ruins and he is cautious around dalish in general because it seems that most of them do not like flat ears or take kindly to them.

 

Mihris? Solas kept intimidating her in elvish, so I'm not certain where you're getting at. If Lavellan asks her to hand over the artifact she found to help the Inquisition, she does so.

 

The lavellan and DA:O Dalish clans where seemed very nice though but it seems like those are in the minority sadly.

 

Historically, there was a clan who took in a human baby who became Aveline. In modern Thedas, Zathrian's clan took in Lanaya and Aneirin, while Ariane's clan took in an escaped Circle mage. Velanna's clan responds positively when they see her in the company of humans, and will listen to a human Warden-Commander who says Velanna has changed. Clan Sabrae took in Feynriel, despite the fact that he's technically human. I'm not seeing how either Zathrian's clan or Clan Lavellan are supposed to be in the minority.

 

Solas did say that each Dalish clan is its own culture by now so I guess that the level of asshattery varies from not asshats but very kind to complete asshats.

 

I don't see why you have that view. If it's because the Dalish are wary of outsiders, then that's completely reasonable when you consider that their religion alone makes them criminals in the Andrastian kingdoms.

[Ogillardetta]

Mihris? Solas kept intimidating her in elvish, so I'm not certain where you're getting at. If Lavellan asks her to hand over the artifact she found to help the Inquisition, she does so.

 

 

Historically, there was a clan who took in a human baby who became Aveline. In modern Thedas, Zathrian's clan took in Lanaya and Aneirin, while Ariane's clan took in an escaped Circle mage. Velanna's clan responds positively when they see her in the company of humans, and will listen to a human Warden-Commander who says Velanna has changed. Clan Sabrae took in Feynriel, despite the fact that he's technically human. I'm not seeing how either Zathrian's clan or Clan Lavellan are supposed to be in the minority.

 

 

I don't see why you have that view. If it's because the Dalish are wary of outsiders, then that's completely reasonable when you consider that their religion alone makes them criminals in the Andrastian kingdoms.

Mihris started it by saying "Think you can manage it Flat ear?" I would be pretty pissed about that too if I where him tbh. An yes I know about the ledgend of Avaline but that does not disprove my point that some clans are probably more asshatty than the rest while some are very kind. And its one thing to be vary of outsiders and another to hunt and kill humans that come to close to camp and look down on city elves.

[Eveangaline]

I don't think the three mages business is explicitly a retcon, but it's clunky, doesn't fit in very well with what's been previously established, and doesn't even add up very well for reasons that range from genetic diversity and population control to plain common sense, imo. Plus the delivery of the info (over and over again) is another instance of making it look like outsiders know more about Dalish culture than the Dalish Inquisitor.

 

Not a fan and will probably be treating it as an old rule that only the extremist asshats pay any heed to.

 

Plus the fact that it seems to be so well known by non dalish, and yet we've had two rather important quests in past games about mages just dreaming about joining the Dalish, and this was never once brought up as a concern that they may not be allowed because of this mage rule?

 

like Aneirin dreamed about it and talked to Wynn about it and succeeded with no mention of a three mage rule (and wasn't the halla lady at that clan a mage? So her the keeper first and Aneirin makes more than three). But you'd think with Feynriel, his mother would try and dissuade him by bringing that up. Or he'd know from her and consider that an obstacle in his way. That this hasn't come up before makes it just seem nonsensical.

[LobselVith8]

Mihris started it by saying "Think you can manage it Flat ear?" I would be pretty pissed about that too if I where him tbh. An yes I know about the ledgend of Avaline but that does not disprove my point that some clans are probably more asshatty than the rest while some are very kind. And its one thing to be vary of outsiders and another to hunt and kill humans that come to close to camp and look down on city elves.

 

The lore reads that the Dalish clans typically try to avoid humans, so I don't see why you think most clans outright attack humans. Even Clan Sabrae warned the templars who tortured one of their children to leave them alone, instead of outright attacking them. We also know Clan Sabrae dealt with threats against them to convert to the Andrastian faith.

 

As for their opinion on the city elves, it's hardly unanimous; some Dalish see them as elves and even think the Dalish and Andrastian elves can learn from one another. Merrill, for example, said that the plight of the Andrastian elves mattered, and she dedicates herself to protecting and taking care of the Andrastian elves who were left homeless because of the war between mages and templars.

 

As for "hunting", we hear about how some Dalish are hunted by the Orlesian nobles for sport.

[Ashagar]

Though to be fair the Orlaisian nobles are horrible to everyone who aren't Orlaisian nobility, just ask the Fereldens, Navarrans and Free Marchers who threw them out.

 

I think looking at the lore for the most part Dalish elves in fall in various degrees between the extremes of lets say the rather friendly clan that the dalish inquisitor comes from and then the ones are pretty much murderous bandits and raiders that give easy fuel for the claims that all dalish clans are like that.

[MoonDrummer]

In fairness to Mihris a 'flat-ear' betrayed the trust of her clan that ultimately led to Imshael boiling them alive and peeling the skin from their bones, men, women and children alike.

[LD Little Dragon]

If the rule of three, driving out mage children is true than it makes the Dalish look incredibly stupid.

 

It's been established that they are worried about having too few mages for every clan to have a Keeper, so it makes no sense to exile extra mages.  First, you lose the mage themselves, second you lose the chance to have them pass their magic genes on to the next generation.

 

No wonder the Dalish have fewer mages than before if they're actively preventing them from breeding.

 

I don't think so.  I call bullshit retcon.  Possibly even more annoying than the retcon than turned Alistair into a liar when he said templar abilities work without lyrium.

[Patchwork]

I can't imagine Fenryel becoming a Keeper, no matter how hard I try. A half-blood human Keeper?.. I doubt she had such intentions for him. 

 

The rest of the clan would never go for it I agree, badly worded I meant she was a teacher without a student and Feynriel was somewhat a place holder for Merrill who she never stopped hoping would return to the clan.

 

It's quite unfortunate that some people feel like this - like they think an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children are all the same. In Inquisition, there is a trend of having all the negativity about the Dalish at the forefront, where we have all the characters who talk about the Dalish provide incredibly negative views about them - Solas, Minaeve, Vivienne, the mercenary Dalish - while the positive is relegated to the player who decides to play Lavellan as pro-Dalish, and a series of war table quests that can be easily missed if you make a mistake and get your clan killed. In contrast, we have a plethora of characters who talk rather positively about the Chantry or the Andrastian faith, and we even have a character who tries to persuade Lavellan to follow the Maker if he says he follows his own gods. It's incredibly lopsided.

 

And let's not forget Sera will dump an elf pc if they don't dismiss their dalish beliefs as nonsense.

 

Mihris is a TME character who Solas possibly has history with and really he starts it by calling her a liar if she's not upfront with the fact her clan was massacred. Neither were winning good person points in that quest.

[moxiegraphix]

Speaking of Mihris. Who was her voice actress? She sounded like Petrice from DA2.

[ashwind]

Except the way this info is presented does indicate (prior to prior lore) that the three-mage rule is a universal rule w/r/t Dalish clans.

 

Indication? Universal Rule? Dragon Age? LOL

 

 

Since when does Bioware writers dare present anything definite? They will not and they dare not. They need a world that is flexible, which is why all the lore/information presented in game is through either codex written by someone or told by someone (whom they will claim to be bias or wrong if they decide to come up with something different later).

 

There are hundreds if not thousands of Dalish clans for all we know and we have seen/met/interacted with how many? 

 

The way Dragon Age is written, all its lores are fable and we would be fools to believe any of it. They can easily change every piece of lore there is by simply claiming that this person is wrong or that person is bias. The lore of Dragon Age relies on one word: Ambiguity. Nothing will ever be definitive and no mystery will be resolve fully. It is easy to write such materials, even easier to change any part of the game when they need to. That is the truth and the entire truth.

[In Exile]

That's a rather asinine comparison, even from you. The Dalish try to maintain their culture and religion despite the Chantry outlawing their religion and Andrastian humans either threatening them with violence to convert, or human lords or lynch mobs driving them off land when they stay too long in a particular region. The Dalish - as a culture - want to govern themselves and freely follow their culture and religion without being forced to surrender their traditions and religion.

 

Are we really going to play this game again? The Dalish codex is quite explicit that humans were and are considered "pests". They're actively waiting for human society to collapse and die out. There's only one group of people IRL that uses that kind of language to refer to other groups, and it rhymes with "pinhead". Then there's the Dalish belief - their honest religious belief - that humans are a walking plague. Not even white supremacists think minorities poison them by existing. Then we have their views on inter-mixing of races, which is to say that they think that romantic entanglements actively destroy the elven race; this is exactly what IRL racists believe about "whiteness". Substitute elf for white and human for your racial minority group of choice, and you've got a politely worded KKK manifesto or Stormfront post. 

 

There's one defense to this virulent form of racism in-setting - that the elves really are different, whereas IRL race is a social construct. But that's irrelevant. If it turns out that race isn't a social construct - and there are more than a few biologists out there who argue that IRL racial groups aren't just social constructs - we don't owe skinheads an apologize. They don't suddenly have the moral high-ground because their racism may be tied to real differences between groups. 

 

 

 

You have Tamlen and Mahariel discussing it when three humans get near their camp, and considering that the Dalish have historically dealt with humans as a threat, I don't see how this vilifies the People. Even Clan Lavellan travel in the Free Marches as a means of avoiding humans attacking them. Lavellan's clan "travel along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities.

 

You don't see how historically murdering humans for having the temerity to exist in your presence vilifies a group of people? I'm actually shocked that your justification is that it's OK 'cause the Dalish are just historically in favour of racially-motivated murder.

 

 

 

You mean you have a man who cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, a fact you left out because you want to intentionally distort the context of why Zathrian has such hatred in his heart. That doesn't excuse what he does, but it's hardly as one-sided as you're disingenuously trying to make it out to seem.

 

It's absolutely one-sided. We're not debating the merits of vigilante justice here. The events that took place were hundreds of years old. There were people there who were guilty: the ones who raped and killed his children. Their family, and their children were completely innocent .And that was however many hundreds of years ago. In exchange for two lives, Zathrian committed a crime unspeakably horrible. He actually succeeds in pulling ahead of Loghain on this front, and Loghain is a slaver.  The Dalish elves in his own clan who Zathrian is allowing to die and/or be transform into werewolves all to hide the fact that he perpetrated a blood mage curse are completely innocent. Zathrian is letting his own people die for the sake of taking revenge on a group of people he's already killed centuries ago. He's a monster. 

 

 

 

That's completely ridiculous. There is nothing in their religious views that condones racism against other groups. Merrill was a firm believer in the elven pantheon, and she expressed concern for the Andrastian elves, empathy for the Andrastian humans, and sympathy for the Starkhaven mages. Clan Lavellan is certainly another example, considering that they aid humans and care enough about the Wycome elves to be willing to sacrifice their lives to protect them from the Marchers.

 

We've been over this point already. There's nothing more virulent and fundamentally racist than the idea that the mere existing of humans - in virtue of being human - is a plague on the elves. Not even racist white supremacist manifestos go so far as to say that non-white minorities are the literal equivalent of plague bearing rats.

 

 

 

You also seem to be criticizing every single Keeper in existence - all across the continent and over the course of centuries since their inception as nomadic tribes - because of the failings of two.

 

These hypothetical moral, upstanding Keepers have yet to be portrayed in a DA game. 

 

 

[Osena109]

In DA:i was talking to one elven mage and found out she was sent packing at young age by here clan they had too many mages 

[LobselVith8]

Are we really going to play this game again? The Dalish codex is quite explicit that humans were and are considered "pests". They're actively waiting for human society to collapse and die out. There's only one group of people IRL that uses that kind of language to refer to other groups, and it rhymes with "pinhead". Then there's the Dalish belief - their honest religious belief - that humans are a walking plague. Not even white supremacists think minorities poison them by existing. Then we have their views on inter-mixing of races, which is to say that they think that romantic entanglements actively destroy the elven race; this is exactly what IRL racists believe about "whiteness". Substitute elf for white and human for your racial minority group of choice, and you've got a politely worded KKK manifesto or Stormfront post. 

 

The Dalish codex about Arlathan explains that the ancient elves looked down on the humans as brash, impulsive, and warlike, so I'm not certain why you're bringing up the perspective of the Arlathan elves in relation to modern Dalish, who have contemporary issues with Andrastian humans due to the criminalization of their religion and the general hostility shown towards the Dalish clans. In regards to the quickening, we don't know whether or not humans were the catalyst for ancient elves losing their immortality.

 

As for the children of elves and humans being human, that was decided by the developers. I'm not certain why you're blaming the Dalish for something that is part of the lore. Slim Couldry, Alistair, Feynriel - all of them have elven parents, but all of them are human. I also disagree with your notion of racial purity. You're equating the idea of biologically-motivated racial preserving with an ethnocentric sense of racial purity, which isn't the same thing. Saying "We must preserve the white race because it is better than the brown people so no white people can have children with brown people" is radically different from saying "If elves don't have children with elves, elves will physically cease to exist forever as a species".

 

There's one defense to this virulent form of racism in-setting - that the elves really are different, whereas IRL race is a social construct. But that's irrelevant. If it turns out that race isn't a social construct - and there are more than a few biologists out there who argue that IRL racial groups aren't just social constructs - we don't owe skinheads an apologize. They don't suddenly have the moral high-ground because their racism may be tied to real differences between groups. 

 

Elves and humans are not part of the same race; they are two different species who co-exist on the same continent in a fantasy setting. I'm not sure why you are confusing humans and elves for different ethnic groups in the real world.

 

You don't see how historically murdering humans for having the temerity to exist in your presence vilifies a group of people? I'm actually shocked that your justification is that it's OK 'cause the Dalish are just historically in favour of racially-motivated murder.

 

You could try addressing what I actually said, instead of distorting the facts like you usually do. As I pointed out, Tamlen and Mahariel confronted three humans who were nearing their camp because they thought the humans might be a threat since, as I pointed out, Andrastian humans have historically been a threat to the Dalish. In fact, if the three humans are spared, they incite a village to attack the clan, which is why Clan Sabrae has to pack up and leave immediately.

 

It's absolutely one-sided. We're not debating the merits of vigilante justice here. The events that took place were hundreds of years old. There were people there who were guilty: the ones who raped and killed his children. Their family, and their children were completely innocent .And that was however many hundreds of years ago. In exchange for two lives, Zathrian committed a crime unspeakably horrible. He actually succeeds in pulling ahead of Loghain on this front, and Loghain is a slaver.  The Dalish elves in his own clan who Zathrian is allowing to die and/or be transform into werewolves all to hide the fact that he perpetrated a blood mage curse are completely innocent. Zathrian is letting his own people die for the sake of taking revenge on a group of people he's already killed centuries ago. He's a monster. 

 

First off, Zathrian doesn't make it privy to anyone in the clan that he is responsible for the curse that is currently infecting the werewolves, so you're being dishonest in claiming that the entire clan is hiding this fact; as the Lady of the Forest points out, no one in the clan even realizes why he's immortal - which is a result of the curse.

 

Second, something monstrous happened to Zathrian, and he did something monstrous in turn. As I said, it doesn't excuse what he did, but you were acting like Zathrian did it out of the blue until I pointed out the context of what happened. And now you're trying to place blame for Zathrian's actions on the entire clan, which is simply ridiculous.

 

We've been over this point already. There's nothing more virulent and fundamentally racist than the idea that the mere existing of humans - in virtue of being human - is a plague on the elves. Not even racist white supremacist manifestos go so far as to say that non-white minorities are the literal equivalent of plague bearing rats.

 

You also think the fact that elves and humans having human children is racist, but that's part of the lore. At this point in time, we simply don't know whether or not the quickening actually happened, but regardless of whether or not it did, it certainly doesn't cause every Dalish to view humanity with disdain; the child who became Aveline wouldn't have been adopted by the Dalish if that was the case, nor would treaties have been signed to aid the Wardens during the Blight, or one the Dalish clans having a "semi-permanent settlement" in Rivaini neighboring humans who follow the Natural Order.

 

These hypothetical moral, upstanding Keepers have yet to be portrayed in a DA game. 

 

Keeper Deshanna Istimaethoriel leading Clan Lavellan to rescue the Wycome humans and elves doesn't count?

[moxiegraphix]

HOnestly? None of the racial groups come off particularly well. Humans enslaving and reviling Elves, shoving them into alienages. Dwarves being extremely reclusive and a bit xenophobic. The Qunari ... The Dalish ... Not a single one of them are 'perfect' or perfectly accepting of other's beliefs, customs, or ways of life. This argument is rather dumb, honestly. And that's what makes them interesting. They're flawed, some PARTS of them more than others.
 

Extreme examples don't make one group better or worse than others. It's like saying religious extremists speak for an entire religion (something most of us can relate to TODAY in the real world). 

[MoonDrummer]

HOnestly? None of the racial groups come off particularly well. Humans enslaving and reviling Elves, shoving them into alienages. Dwarves being extremely reclusive and a bit xenophobic. The Qunari ... The Dalish ... Not a single one of them are 'perfect' or perfectly accepting of other's beliefs, customs, or ways of life. This argument is rather dumb, honestly. And that's what makes them interesting. They're flawed, some PARTS of them more than others.

Extreme examples don't make one group better or worse than others. It's like saying religious extremists speak for an entire religion (something most of us can relate to TODAY in the real world).

The dwarven masterrace had no faults.

[IanPolaris]

There is lore in previous games about the dalish and abominations which stated that keepers had become abominations before and their entire clan have to try kill their own keeper when it does happen. Then there are the ancient Avvar of vigil's keep who had their shaman become a abomination and finally had to get the help of the dwarves to stop it. 

 

That doesn't sound like there no need of warriors who know how to fight abaminaitons and demons to me, not to mention even without abominations there is the matter of blood magic.

 

That doesn't contradict what I said.  What I said was that:

 

1)  Abominations within the Dalish seemed to be rare.

2) The Dalish were able to handle mages, magic (including the risk of abominations) without the need for a Templar-like order.

 

Given how abominations have been described and given what we've seen of the Dalish clans, and given that all keeps and firsts had to be mages, it seems self-evident that abominations HAVE to be rare or else the Dalish wouldn't have survived more than a couple of generations.  The same applies to all human cultures that permit mages and non-mages to live side by side (which was ALL of them pre-chantry).  That implies that the risk of abomination/possession in a society that accepts mages to be very, very low.

 

However, if that's so, then that means the entire Templar/Circle approach is not only unnecessary but wrongheaded as a matter of fact not just opinion, and it's clear (at least to me) that the Devs didn't want that.  Their solution:  Slime the Dalish and make them out to treat their mage-children in a monstrous fashion as well...even if it takes a blatant retcon to do this.

[robertthebard]

The dwarven masterrace had no faults.

They're short, and their mothers dress 'em funny... /runaway

[leaguer of one]

That doesn't contradict what I said.  What I said was that:

 

1)  Abominations within the Dalish seemed to be rare.

2) The Dalish were able to handle mages, magic (including the risk of abominations) without the need for a Templar-like order.

 

Given how abominations have been described and given what we've seen of the Dalish clans, and given that all keeps and firsts had to be mages, it seems self-evident that abominations HAVE to be rare or else the Dalish wouldn't have survived more than a couple of generations.  The same applies to all human cultures that permit mages and non-mages to live side by side (which was ALL of them pre-chantry).  That implies that the risk of abomination/possession in a society that accepts mages to be very, very low.

 

However, if that's so, then that means the entire Templar/Circle approach is not only unnecessary but wrongheaded as a matter of fact not just opinion, and it's clear (at least to me) that the Devs didn't want that.  Their solution:  Slime the Dalish and make them out to treat their mage-children in a monstrous fashion as well...even if it takes a blatant retcon to do this.

The moment you find out the demons have to be let in to turn a mages shows the abomination issue is baseless.