11 réponses à ce sujet

[arkngt]

I've seen "min-max" mentioned in lot of posts, but what does it mean? Seems to be connected to power gaming somehow, but I've never seen it explained - seems like it's taken for granted that you already know what it is.

[Matth85]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Min-maxing

 

Google. yay.

[arkngt]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Min-maxing

 

Google. yay.

 

I actually did, but for Dragon Age Inquisition, but thanks.

 

Yeah, so basically what I guess almost all players do then - focusing on certain skills.

 

EDIT: Also, this must be the most unfriendly and negative forum I've ever visited. Actually, I think I'll leave this place right now.

[Matth85]

I actually did, but for Dragon Age Inquisition, but thanks.

 

Yeah, so basically what I guess almost all players do then - focusing on certain skills.

 

EDIT: Also, this must be the most unfriendly and negative forum I've ever visited. Actually, I think I'll leave this place right now.

 

Min Maxing is not the concept of focusing on certain skill, but the synergy between skills and stats. It's the balance of theorycrafting via math, and actual realistic ways of playing. It's not something a lot of people do, on the contrary: Only a few people do it. The majority of gamers are casual, some are hardcore, some are roleplayers and some are meta gamers/powergamers/MinMaxer. 

 

Also: Sorry?

[sandoval]

Yeah, so basically what I guess almost all players do then - focusing on certain skills.

 

 

 

it goes beyond that: Minimaxing is the negation of roleplaying. Optimizing is the one and only focus.  

[Penumbract]

And Min-maxing makes the game less enjoyable for some people, like me, even though I like crafting build in my head.

The thing is, doing this pretty much forces a certain playstyle and eliminates creativity. This hurts even more when you have a fixed number of abilities at you disposal like in DA:I with its 8 slot bar for active skills.

[Matth85]

And Min-maxing makes the game less enjoyable for some people, like me, even though I like crafting build in my head.

The thing is, doing this pretty much forces a certain playstyle and eliminates creativity. This hurts even more when you have a fixed number of abilities at you disposal like in DA:I with its 8 slot bar for active skills.

 

You know... minmaxing is a choice, right? nobody forces you to do, try or think that way, right?

[Penumbract]

I just wanted to point out it's not always best to aim for overpoweredness (is this even a word) because I think some people still believe it's the most fun to play this way and then they come back to ... say... a forum and complain the game is to easy and they would be forced to play a certain way.

 

So yeah, I agree with you that nobody forces you to do so (and I for one don't min-max) if that was not clear in my other post.

[Maverick827]

1. The second best sword in the game does 99.9 dps and you think it looks really cool. The best sword in the game does 100 dps and you think it looks really dumb. Which sword do you use?

2. In Some RPG 1 you made Max the rogue. He had a very quick wit. In fact, he relied on his cunning to get out of predicaments whenever possible. You were able to select these alternate options because you put all of your points into Cunning. This worked out well because you specialized Max into an advanced class that let you use your Cunning score for combat instead of Dexterity, which was otherwise a much better stat for dps.

In Some RPG 2, they got rid of this advanced class and there is no substitute. Do you put your points into Cunning or Dexterity?

3. You're building a tank character. When selecting your race, you notice that Elves get a dexterity bonus, Dwarves get a strength bonus, Humans get a willpower bonus, and some other race that you think is dumb gets a bonus to constitution. Dexterity, strength, and willpower offer some benefits to a tank, but not nearly as much as constitution. Which race do you choose?

4. So far in a game, you have been playing your character as sort of a Robin Hood; he's a champion for the poor and disenfranchised. During a quest, you confront a noble who is in the process of executing some scheme that will exploit her people in some way. In exchange for your silence, she offers you a magic ring that will make your character much stronger. There is no other compareable ring in the game; this ring is just miles ahead of all the others. Do you take her offer?

[Matth85]

and then they come back to ... say... a forum and complain the game is to easy and they would be forced to play a certain way.

 

To be fair, it's more the other way around. The first few days of DA I had 2 complaints regarding classes and difficulty:

KE was OP and DW rogue unplayable (at Nightmare).

Today I will tell you KE is mediocre, and DW Rogue is OP. 

 

But you are correct: Minmaxing is a particular way of gaming. It's more a state of mind rather than a way of playing. A minmaxer is the extreme version of a meta gamer after all. You can be a slight meta gamer, and know why X is better than Y, just so you can get enough efficiency to do the game while wearing Z armor for looks. Or you can be a minmaxer and disregard looks, disregard "fun" in that sense, and just make the best you can.

 

I, for one, am a meta gamer. For instance. I want to play through DA O again, as it's been years. I can not, however, just start up the game. I must know what race is best for the playstyle i choose, what's the optimal stat allocation and what each stat to. I also need to know the optimal team synergy and the best class composition. If nobody tells me, I will find out myself.

 

Another example: if I start up a new game, as DA I was, I will look through every single ability and passive. I simply need to know what does what. Then I need to know how many skills I can get. I then make myself a build. If I see a skill such as Poisoned Weapons, I get curious. "25% more damage!"? To what? The poison? Auto attacks? To the ability modifiers?. Then the calculator comes out, and I test.

 

is this fun? Yes. For me it is. I also have no interest in the lore of Dragon Age, and don't find the world of characters particular interesting. (Well, Solas was. But that's because I knew something was up from the start!). I see my characters as a puzzle, and I plan to solve it. I want to solve it the best way possible; Not the fastest way or the easiest way. The best. Minmaxing a game is like modding a game. You do it because you enjoy the concept of doing it; not because the game is waht it is. I don't mod Skyrim because it is Skyrim -- I would mod DA I if i could. I also do not minmax or theorycraft DA I because it is DA I -- I would do it with any game that caught my fancy. Doesn't matter what game either. I can play an action shooter and try to figure the best gun loadout. 

 

---------

 

In general, the mentality like mine comes from Esports and MMORPGs (Well, mine came from Final Fantasy at a young age.. but that is besides the point!). At higher level of play in an MMO or Esport, it requires an extreme amount of, not just player skill but theorycrafting and minmaxing. If you raid top in World of Warcraft (Which I used too) you need to know the right stat allocation, the stat priority, your optimal rotation and a solution to any given problem. If you play end LoL you need to maximize your own damage and gold gain, but also minimize enemy threat and damage taken. You got to play your build around your character and your opponents. It's real-time minmaxing every top LoL game! 

 

No Singleplayer game are designed around it, which is why we break the games so easily. Solo High Dragon on the highest difficulty within 20 seconds without optimal gear? Killing a High Dragon in 4 seconds? The synergy between skill X and Y? Between stat A and B? None of them are intended. 

 

As I like to tell people. If you enjoy a game as a game, then don't worry about it. There are different difficulty setting and a lot of content are optional. You do not need to kill every High Dragon to enjoy Dragon Age. You don't need to solo Nightmare to have fun. If you do, however, enjoy the challenge and enjoy being as efficient as possible (Taylorism at its best, aha!), then minmaxing is a very nice way to turn a 100 hour game into a 300 hour game . 

The game itself loses its challenge, so you got to make your own. If that is a problem.. well.. Then yes, minmaxing breaks the game.

[Feranel]

it goes beyond that: Minimaxing is the negation of roleplaying. Optimizing is the one and only focus.  

 

Hrm.  I disagree with this statement.  I min max my spec and the specs of my party, as well as make sure I and the party have the best gear possible, in order to be able to roleplay.  There is no "optimal" companion for me to bring, because I've made them all at their best, and so any slight differences in performance between them don't matter, and I can chose who I want to bring based on story.  I chose the class and specialization I wanted to roleplay, and min-maxed that.  I don't make role playing decisions based on min-maxing my character because, frankly, with crafting in this game, there are no decisions that impact the actual power of your character.  Any minor role play decision benefits there are in the game are 1-3 points of a stat, when, if you've been min-maxing your gear crafting, you don't really care about.  I min max so that combat is simple enough (even on nightmare) so I can progress through the story at an exciting enough pace, to get to the roleplaying. 

[Amnar]

EDIT: Also, this must be the most unfriendly and negative forum I've ever visited. Actually, I think I'll leave this place right now.

this is your average theorycrafting board

and the reason for the unfriendly environment is pretty simple

 

looking at your first post: you have a question, spend 1 minute on a search engine, didnt find what you were looking for, then spend 2 minutes to make a new topic

then someone else comes along, reads your question, spends 1 minute on a search engine, finds what you were looking for and replies the result for you

 

now instead of being grateful for the fact someone else did your work for you, you get upset because the representation of the results was not to your liking

 

this is why most optimization boards are pretty hostile, because people are unable to use a search engine, then complain, if some else uses them for them