60 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Please don't tell me I'm shooing them away - I'm simply having a debate in which I'm expressing that I felt DAO had too much redundant spells

Too much redundant spells? Like for example...

[Corto81]

Please don't tell me I'm shooing them away - I'm simply having a debate in which I'm expressing that I felt DAO had too much redundant spells - I'm all for unique and interesting options available to players. I don't think DAI's magic system is perfect or close to it, but if I consider my playtime as a mage in DAO versus DAI, I find DAI more enjoyable even if my spell book is far slimmer.

 

I don't think DAO mages in and of themselves were an issue as much as they simply were so above and beyond the other 2 classes it was kind of jarring to play a mage then go to a warrior/rogue and wonder where all your cool stuff was.

 

*shrug* It's simply my opinion and in no way the definitive logic/answer.

 

More options in an RPG is never bad.

 

Noone is forcing you to build an unconventional mage.

A large number of people (most, you'd think) prefer to have the OPTION to build a character the way they prefer, and not the way the dev wants them to - at least in a "deep, tactical" RPG.

[Cyonan]

Please don't tell me I'm shooing them away - I'm simply having a debate in which I'm expressing that I felt DAO had too much redundant spells - I'm all for unique and interesting options available to players. I don't think DAI's magic system is perfect or close to it, but if I consider my playtime as a mage in DAO versus DAI, I find DAI more enjoyable even if my spell book is far slimmer.

 

I don't think DAO mages in and of themselves were an issue as much as they simply were so above and beyond the other 2 classes it was kind of jarring to play a mage then go to a warrior/rogue and wonder where all your cool stuff was.

 

*shrug* It's simply my opinion and in no way the definitive logic/answer.

 

The thing that does kind of suck is that instead of giving a bunch of cool stuff to Warrior and Rogue they simply took a bunch of cool stuff away from Mage and then made Warrior/Rogue more unique(they did give them some cool stuff, but also still took a lot away from Mage).

 

A big part of Warrior/Rogue being boring to me was that they shared weapon skill trees in Origins. A dual wielding Warrior spammed a lot of the same abilities that a dual wielding Rogue did, but wore heavier armour instead of trying to get backstabs.

 

While I do enjoy Mage in DA:I I did enjoy the Arcane Warrior a bit more than Knight Enchanter. Knight Enchanter feels a bit too spammy on Spirit Blade if you actually want to get up into melee.

 

Arcane Warrior just needed to have animations fixed so that half your spells didn't require you to sheath your weapon first(and general balancing to make it not immortal, but both specs need that =P)

[Endee]

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.... Lois, this is not my Batman glass.

 

You can't be a blood mage in this game? I can see it from a story perspective as that wouldn't go over so well, but why steal something a lot of players loved?

 

 

Probably just the limited ability slots.

Nope, they took it out. But I understand Bioware's reasoning for doing so, something about the Inquisitor being so much in the spot light all over Thedas and he's supposed to be some kind of beacon of hope, giving him or her access to 'evil' Blood magic, it just didn't fit.. It fits with Hawke and it fits with the Warden (because Grey Wardens will accept blood magic apparently) but for the Inquisitor? Nope. So yeah, story perspective... it makes sense to me so I accept it.

I also know they said (don't have a source though) that they would like to bring blood magic back as a playable school in a future DA game, but if and when they do they want to do it right. Not just toss it back in because of popular demand, but actually do it right and have it make sense for the story or something. Kinda hoping that means we might get to play a more... morally questionable kind of character

[Crackseed]

The thing that does kind of suck is that instead of giving a bunch of cool stuff to Warrior and Rogue they simply took a bunch of cool stuff away from Mage and then made Warrior/Rogue more unique(they did give them some cool stuff, but also still took a lot away from Mage).

 

A big part of Warrior/Rogue being boring to me was that they shared weapon skill trees in Origins. A dual wielding Warrior spammed a lot of the same abilities that a dual wielding Rogue did, but wore heavier armour instead of trying to get backstabs.

 

While I do enjoy Mage in DA:I I did enjoy the Arcane Warrior a bit more than Knight Enchanter. Knight Enchanter feels a bit too spammy on Spirit Blade if you actually want to get up into melee.

 

Arcane Warrior just needed to have animations fixed so that half your spells didn't require you to sheath your weapon first(and general balancing to make it not immortal, but both specs need that =P)

 

I think this is a good point to raise - and Yrkoon/Corto81's points about not having stuff pulled out just for the sake of it is totally valid.

 

If we could have maintained a larger portion of original spells given new life/interactions, that would have been awesome. My intended point is not to decry, laugh or mock DAO's spell book. I kind of miss the goofy shape shifting spells or even wish we kept Petrify. Also feel like an Entropy tree would have been great since it still had plenty of different flavor from the current Necro spec.

 

Still - the spells that do exist provide, IMO, a good variety of CC, firepower and protection. The loss of self-combos like Storm of the Century is regrettable, but my overall point is that mages aren't dumbed down. Streamlined, perhaps to the point of a loss of dramatically different builds? Perhaps, especially considering DAO.

 

And yes, I'd rather have seen more unique spells kept if it meant warriors/rogues got the same level of love. Which, as it stands in DAI, I feel like all 3 classes at least have great overall presence from a design/skill standpoint.

[Corto81]

 

 

Still - the spells that do exist provide, IMO, a good variety of CC, firepower and protection. The loss of self-combos like Storm of the Century is regrettable, but my overall point is that mages aren't dumbed down. Streamlined, perhaps to the point of a loss of dramatically different builds? Perhaps, especially considering DAO.

 

And yes, I'd rather have seen more unique spells kept if it meant warriors/rogues got the same level of love. Which, as it stands in DAI, I feel like all 3 classes at least have great overall presence from a design/skill standpoint.

 

I don't disagree on the streamlined, and not dumbed down skill trees.

 

My issues are:

- willpower. It feels like this was an afterthought. Willpower is for.... Wait for it.... Damage dealing... For all classes...? Dudes, just remove the thing if you decided it wasn't going to effect mana or stamina

- coming from that is that your entire mana pool is gear-dependant. In fact, with no stats to assign, ALL classes and ALL builds are gear dependant.

- coming from that... Especially on higher difficulty, my mages mostly tend to autoattack, and be sure to have mana for barrier and one or two most useful spells.

(KE is different... it's the AW of DA:I, except - to me - much more boring)

- continually autoattacking and casting spells here and there really isn't how I (me, personally, someone else might love it) enjoys playing a mage/wizard type

(I don't necessarily need OP DPS, but something to keep the flow of spellcasting going, buffs, debuffs, slows, CC...).

There are SOME spells that allow you to do that, but you really don't have the mana pool to sustain constant casting of any kind.

 

I finished the game twice on a rogue. Once on NM. (my mage and Warrior playthrough I just couldn't keep going)
And TBH, rogues have similar issues in the boring department; once you obtain mid-game gear, you can literally hold down the attack button and beat any encounter in the game.

I'm not exaggerating, either. You can literally hold down the attack button and beat any encounter in the game (assuming your tank is properly specced).

 

In tactical RPGs, your warrior and rogues rely mostly on positioning. Your mages on constant casting of some sort.

it just isn't like that in DA:I.

Combined with lacking AI behavior and a practically useless tactical camera, I found my mage playthrough just boring.

I played around a bit with the companions in my rogue playthroughs, and I got the same feeling - very "ordinary" gameplay.

(well, you can always rely on Viv never dying and solo killing a dragon if your main toon somehow dies)

 

...

 

Being honest, I didn't like the combat at all.

It wants to be both action combat and tactical combat and ends up being good at neither.

The flashy spells and colors don't actually make for exciting combat, no matter what the devs think.

The manual attack thing is borderline hilarious since the attack always do the exact same thing (this isn't Dark Souls where every weapon has a different move set, or even Witcher/TES where you got light attack, heavy attack, running attack, etc.).

And you have to pause every 3 seconds because the AI behavior is really, really bad.

Action combat is neither responsive enough nor fluid enough to be "good" action combat.

And the tactical combat simply isn't doable with the AI being dumb and the tactical camera being useless.

 

Combine all that together, my mage - very much the playmaker of the party in any RPG I've ever played. from BG to DA:O to Divinity:OS etc etc. - just never felt like he controlled the battlefield in DA:I.

He never felt like he truly mattered (early game spam Barrier, late game.. well whatever, you got the decked out Rogue and Viv, doesn't matter what you do), and it just wasn't a rewarding or interesting experience.

[Crackseed]

Hmm, did you find yourself OOM a fair amount with your mage, requiring you to be an auto-attack machine? 

 

I initially struggled with learning the adjusted rhythm - is definitely a drastic difference from the DAO mage that's for sure. And this is going to be a knock against the system, but with the design, you kind of NEED to take a mana-regenning talent or else you're gonna be staff auto-attacking a ton. Once I picked up the Winter Stillness and began to make good use of static positioning after using fade step if necessary to adjust, I generally was spell casting nearly non-stop save for when I front-loaded several heavy mana spells back to back for an "Oh crap, I need lots of IMMEDIATE CC!" and needed to regen for a bit while staffing away.

[mickey111]

Some say magic was dumbed-down. 

 

 

There are gamers that actually enjoy studying a large selection of character building options before accidentally picking something that is underpowered or something which doesn't synergy with the rest of their picks at all. And then there is you. The people Bioware dumbed the game down for. Good job. I don't think "trim the fat" is the right expression for you. Trimming fat in the case of a game like DAI can be taken as a metaphor for opening yur eyes to what is going on and thinking about what it all means and figuring out a game plan. 

[Astylith]

There were roughly 300 spells in Baldur's Gate II. There were roughly 90 spells in DA:O.. and you are surprised this game has even less?

[StrangeStrategy]

Because those spells were baked into existing spells, and then those spells received utility.

For example, Chain lighting. Not only does it deal damage, but it strikes multiple targets and shocks them, and temporarily staggers them. So, its not just damage.

They removed many spells that were redundant.

Name some spells that you really miss, that would still fit into DAI. And by "fit into DAI" I don't mean bring back healing, mana leech, drain life, etc. spells that would otherwise break existing rules won't fit.

[Samahl na Revas]

Because those spells were baked into existing spells, and then those spells received utility.

For example, Chain lighting. Not only does it deal damage, but it strikes multiple targets and shocks them, and temporarily staggers them. So, its not just damage.

They removed many spells that were redundant.

Name some spells that you really miss, that would still fit into DAI. And by "fit into DAI" I don't mean bring back healing, mana leech, drain life, etc. spells that would otherwise break existing rules won't fit.

 

 Glyph of repulsion and glyph of paralysis. I played DA 2 nightmare w/ just those skills, 2/3 mages could use those, Anders and MC. No, Ice glyph doesn't replace paralysis.

 

Time spiral, rock armor (it's a potion now...)

 

petrify, crushing prison which was good for combos...

 

paralyze, death cloud, Elemental chaos

 

Don't hinge on that glyph of paralysis....