49 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

There are plenty of examples of this, but the best one is the Alexius boss fight.  I'm a DW Rogue and here's how the fight plays out; he surrounde himself with wards/mines, teleports and barriers when you get close and has a 360 AoE pulse that 1-shots you if you get close without a barrier. 

 

That makes the fight relatively challenging for DW Rogue on Nightmare, but that's not what bothers me.  The irritating thing is that he does nothing to combat ranged DPS.  Seriously, he just sits there getting pelted; never barriers, never moves, just sits at range firing a measly bolt at your tank.  So, the obvious strategy was to sit my inquisitor somewhere out of the way, taunt and sheild wall at a safe distance then have my 2 mages auto-attack him to death while I go make a sandwich. 

 

This isn't the only example but it's one of the most jarring ones.  Why is this game so easy on ranged characters? 

[Maverick827]

This happens is pretty much every action RPG.  It's a shame.

 

My advice is to carry around a bow and a respec necklace with you, or if you know the game's encounters already, just bring one when you know you have a dumb melee fight coming up.

[kstarler]

I didn't fight Alexius with my DW Rogue, but the alternative was even more problematic for melee characters, since that boss does an AoE as soon as it gets within melee range of its target, and the attack panics your party before it teleports away, so there's basically nothing you can do as a melee character for the entire first phase of the fight unless you take control of your tank and kite the boss.

 

The only advice that I can offer is to try and focus on the other guys as your rogue. A well built/geared melee rogue should be able to take out an archer/foot soldier in a single ability rotation, while the rest of your party deals with the boss/mini-bosses.

 

I think a big problem with enemies that AoE in melee is how unresponsive the controls feel at times. Without a sprint, the best you can do is spam the disengage button to get away from AoE attacks quickly, but that causes your entire team to disengage. I really don't understand why DAMP has a sprint, but single player doesn't.

[actionhero112]

And yet I'd much rather do alexius than the envy demon again as melee dps. 

 

Never again. NEVER AGAIN. 

 

Plus Alexius can be repeatedly knocked down for hilarity on rogues. between rolling draw, payback strike and shadow strike, I don't think Alexius ever spent more than 30 seconds on his feet that entire fight. 

 

Dragon punish ranged characters far more though. The safest place in a dragon fight is right under the dragon funnily enough. where you can easily dodge her clumsy attempts at meleeing you, and pretty much never get hit. 

[Selea]

There are plenty of examples of this, but the best one is the Alexius boss fight.  I'm a DW Rogue and here's how the fight plays out; he surrounde himself with wards/mines, teleports and barriers when you get close and has a 360 AoE pulse that 1-shots you if you get close without a barrier. 

 

Are you serious? The DW rogue gets the best time of all the melee classes since the mines don't trigger when you are stealthed, plus both Twin Fangs and Deathblow knocks him down so you can do whatever you want in the meantime.

With a warrior use Grappling Chain, problem solved.

[Gigamantis]

Are you serious? The DW rogue gets the best time of all the melee classes since the mines don't trigger when you are stealthed, plus both Twin Fangs and Deathblow knocks him down so you can do whatever you want in the meantime.

With a warrior use Grappling Chain, problem solved.

Twin Fangs and Deathblow have long animations; the AoE pulse and teleport are instant the second your within melee range, he doesn't even wait for you to start attacking, and I'm pretty sure I've seen the mines knock me out of stealth.  At least something of his has been knocking me out of stealth, because I've never managed to close on him.  Grappling Chain I didn't really think of; since even many regular mobs are immune to it I figured a boss definitely would be, but that doesn't really change the point of this thread. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Alexius fight is hard, and I don't even think it's impossible to keep a DW Rogue involved and alive, I just think it's stupid that he, and pretty much every other mob, has a billion anti-melee implements and absolutely no anti-range.  It bothers me that the most effective way to handle that fight is by benching my Inquisitor and letting my range characters auto-attack him to death, because my range characters will never be in any danger. 

[Selea]

1) If you got knocked down then you weren't in stealth, as simple as that (probably you got removed from stealth by him perceiving it, a thing that can happen if you are not attentive). It doesn't matter at all if Deathblow or Twin Fangs are not immediate because you should use them from stealth.

2) Even if you use Flank Attack the mines don't work. So you can use it to stealth and do Flank Attack + Twin Fangs.

The Alexius fight with a DW rogue is very easy. If you were talking about the Envy Demon then maybe you would have a point.

[Gigamantis]

1) If you got knocked down then you weren't in stealth, as simple as that (probably you got removed from stealth by him perceiving it, a thing that can happen if you are not attentive). It doesn't matter at all if Deathblow or Twin Fangs are not immediate because you should use them from stealth.

2) Even if you use Flank Attack the mines don't work. So you can use it to stealth and do Flank Attack + Twin Fangs.

The Alexius fight with a DW rogue is very easy. If you were talking about the Envy Demon then maybe you would have a point.

Stealth is a 24 second CD, and him "perceiving it" sounds like an RNG thing so I'm not sure exaclty how being attentive solves anything. 

 

Beyond all of this the question I'm really getting at is why bother?  If you have the DW rogue hold position some place out of the way and have a Mage firing at him from range Alexius won't even fight back.  I'd be perfectly happy with all of the anti-melee stuff if he started raining hell on ranged characters as well, but the easiest way to do almost everything in this game is to just never close distance.  It's dumb.

 

If chasing Alexius around and carefully timing stealth attacks stopped him from raining AoE damage on my ranged characters for a few seconds, or something, then it wouldn't feel like a complete waste of effort. 

[Selea]

Beyond all of this the question I'm really getting at is why bother?  If you have the DW rogue hold position some place out of the way and have a Mage firing at him from range Alexius won't even fight back.  I'd be perfectly happy with all of the anti-melee stuff if he started raining hell on ranged characters as well, but the easiest way to do almost everything in this game is to just never close distance.  It's dumb. 

 

Because with a DW rogue you can do 2 times the damage you can do with all the other party members together?
Late game especially DW rogues become the best damage class in the game. Nothing comes even remotely close. Saying they are "weak" is the most absurd thing I've heard in a while. Playing with a DW rogue you can practically remove all the damaging targets out of the fight faster than with anything else. The Alexius fight comes early but if you had an Assassin in that boss battle you could just use MoD + Hidden Blades + MoD and remove half of his health on this simple combo alone (and from range). If you call that "weak" I don't know what powerful is.

As for perceiving, no, it is not a RNG thing. For example if you don't have the stealth upgrade and you touch the enemy then you will be perceived. Or you can be perceived if you lose too much time before attacking on boss enemies.

[Blackstork]

You can use SS/Evade, use bees with MK, and FA for restealth. 

+ You have not mage with Dispell for Alexius battle? While playing DW rogue you do not have Dispell mage?

OMG

 

Seriously:

1. Take Dispell mage, esp with DW rogue. ITs rule of thumb. Dispel is must have on any mage, actually, especially one who cohorts rogue.

2. Use SS, it : knowckdowns, does ok damage, reduces CD on all your spells including FA and Stealth, TF, etc. 

3. Use bees and use MK.

 

Alexius easier than Envy as DW rogue. As DW rogue , if i fight Envy - i grab the bow and jars for that fight.

[Gigamantis]

Because with a DW rogue you can do 2 times the damage you can do with all the other party members together?
Late game especially DW rogues become the best damage class in the game. Nothing comes even remotely close. Saying they are "weak" is the most absurd thing I've heard in a while. Playing with a DW rogue you can practically remove all the damaging targets out of the fight faster than with anything else. The Alexius fight comes early but if you had an Assassin in that boss battle you could just use MoD + Hidden Blades + MoD and remove half of his health on this simple combo alone (and from range). If you call that "weak" I don't know what powerful is.

As for perceiving, no, it is not a RNG thing. For example if you don't have the stealth upgrade and you touch the enemy then you will be perceived. Or you can be perceived if you lose too much time before attacking on boss enemies.

Right now the damage is at least comparable to a Rogue Archer; in many cases worse if you consider uptime.  I know that pretty much everyone gets insanely overpowered in one way or another when specializations come into play, and I guess having everything be overpowered does technically "fix" balance issues, but it still doesn't excuse poor design. 

 

I beat the Alexius fight very easily on Nightmare, and I didn't need jars or a dispel mage to do it.  The fact that the fight was SO easy when I finally stopped trying to use my inquisitor is what bothers me more than anything; the only thing even remotely challenging about that fight was keeping my inquisitor alive, and the only thing I got for keeping him alive was having to chase Alexius and DPS through a barrier.  It's dumb. 

[Blackstork]

Envy is harder encounter for DW rogue. And DW rogue pre-Skyhold is prone to die in boss fights, if not ruled direclty/in correlation with other team members. 

Alexius at least become cheese if you just have Barrier/Dispell mage with you and Have SS build with MK and jars. 

I playing duo now, and i play with Vivi as DW rogue, and going for Alexius, which is much easier encounter compared to Envy for such comp.

[Eledran]

True, the Alexius fight was hard for melee.

 

But after reaching Skyhold and unlocking specialisations my melee characters started being either unkillable or putting out hilarious amounts of DPS.

 

So I wouldn't call the entire game anti-melee either.

 

The problem in DAI is that the difficulty drops down suddenly later on and that certain mechanics aren't very well balanced out. Both on the player side and on the side of mobs who hit 360° with melee moves.

[AlexMBrennan]

I think a big problem with enemies that AoE in melee is how unresponsive the controls feel at times

I am pretty sure this intentional - it takes about 5s to finish an attack chain, making it impossible to avoid the triple mines/telegraphed dragon claw attack/whatever unless you have an evasive ability available to interrupt the lengthy attack animation.

Funnily, ranged rogues do not have this restriction (you can move and strafe while firing, but you can only lunge forward while using daggers, swords or two handed weapons)

[actionhero112]

Just did the Alexius fight again on Nightmare as DW. 

 

 

Not as bad as you think it is. I was actually surprised with how fast I did it. Took me like 1 minute, max. Only went through 2 potions, didn't get hit by any of his glyphs. 

 

Twin fangs, Shadow Strike and Flank Attack are pretty good. 

 

As far as bosses go, I would classify him as extremely easy. 

 

I had crafted t2 daggers, tanks had crafted t2 armor and dorian had a t2 staff. 

 

Why did they make him vulnerable to knockdown and dispel. Trivializes the entire fight. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

I also just did Alexius fight on Nightmare as DW, no problem. I was the only one in the party with any crafted stuff, no dispel, nothing special, just hitting him with my DW rogue over and over. Tends to be possible to hit him without hitting the mines, if it isn't, then just have a mage use barrier on you just before.

 

The Envy Demon is an interesting fight, because on one of my DW playthroughs it was a nightmare - even though playing on Hard - and I needed like 10 reloads. On another playthrough, it was actually really easy, again as a DW rogue. Not even sure what made the difference, I did have a slightly different party composition and more knowledge of skills, though.

[Gigamantis]

I also just did Alexius fight on Nightmare as DW, no problem. I was the only one in the party with any crafted stuff, no dispel, nothing special, just hitting him with my DW rogue over and over. Tends to be possible to hit him without hitting the mines, if it isn't, then just have a mage use barrier on you just before.

 

The Envy Demon is an interesting fight, because on one of my DW playthroughs it was a nightmare - even though playing on Hard - and I needed like 10 reloads. On another playthrough, it was actually really easy, again as a DW rogue. Not even sure what made the difference, I did have a slightly different party composition and more knowledge of skills, though.

It must be random how often he employs his anti-melee then, because I find the idea that you could just sit there and hit him over and over with your DW Rogue to be outright impossible.  His mines are easy to deal with even without dispel, but his 360 AoE and the fact that he teleports/barriers any time you get within farting distance is not. 

 

Either way it was an easy fight; much easier if the DW Rogue does something else while the rest of the party hogs all the glory.  I just get really hung up on aesthetics.  The leader of the inquisition hiding behind a pillar crying while the rest of the party facestomps the boss easily at range just irks the hell out of me. 

[kstarler]

I am pretty sure this intentional - it takes about 5s to finish an attack chain, making it impossible to avoid the triple mines/telegraphed dragon claw attack/whatever unless you have an evasive ability available to interrupt the lengthy attack animation.

Funnily, ranged rogues do not have this restriction (you can move and strafe while firing, but you can only lunge forward while using daggers, swords or two handed weapons)

 

That is exactly my point. For example, fighting bears with my DW rogue is a huge pain, not just because of the AoE stomp, but also because I'm constantly being pushed to the front of the target by my attack animations, which reduces the damage that I do and puts me directly in harm's way. I can usually get off one ability and one auto attack before I have to back off and swing around to the rear of the target again, which would not be half as bad if I could sprint in combat, or if I could reliably break out of my auto attack cycle without using Evade.

 

Of course, animals in general would be a lot easier if I could reliably use my assassin abilities on them. Half the time the throw attacks go through the enemy without the intended affect. And don't even get me started on humanoids bouncing away from me when I twin fang them to the ground.

 

EDIT: Also, I find that using Twin Fangs from stealth often gives teleporting/quick enemies a chance to move away, whereas Shadow Strike is a lot more reliable at putting them on their back. I think it has to do with the difference in attack animation times.

[tisdfogg]

I am pretty sure this intentional - it takes about 5s to finish an attack chain, making it impossible to avoid the triple mines/telegraphed dragon claw attack/whatever unless you have an evasive ability available to interrupt the lengthy attack animation.

Funnily, ranged rogues do not have this restriction (you can move and strafe while firing, but you can only lunge forward while using daggers, swords or two handed weapons)

 

The stupidity of this design choice boggles my mind. So an archer can freely move around while shooting, and a melee fighter is limited to attacking in a straight line? I know this is a power fantasy and all, but it is just ridiculous even by fantasy world standards.

 

Anyway OP, the balance in this game is all over the place. Truth be told Bioware games usually are more "ranged-friendly" in a sense that ranged chars enjoy more comfortable gameplay, and melee people have to jump more hoops to get the most out of their characters. It can be frustrating. 

[Gigamantis]

The stupidity of this design choice boggles my mind. So an archer can freely move around while shooting, and a melee fighter is limited to attacking in a straight line? I know this is a power fantasy and all, but it is just ridiculous even by fantasy world standards.

 

Anyway OP, the balance in this game is all over the place. Truth be told Bioware games usually are more "ranged-friendly" in a sense that ranged chars enjoy more comfortable gameplay, and melee people have to jump more hoops to get the most out of their characters. It can be frustrating. 

The positioning and hitboxes in this game are pretty horrible, and that hurts melee more than anyone, but that's not even what bothers me the most.  Bugs are bugs, but the fact that so many of these encounters are built intentionally to be unforgiving to melee and embarassingly easy for range is the most frustrating for me. 

 

Nothing will barrier until you get in melee range... Really?  Bosses like Alexius toss out anti-melee AoE and anti-melee obstacles like candy and are able to teleport all around the area and barrier to avoid melee, but will sit there smiling and lobbing a slow, worthless bolt at the tank when you're shredding him to pieces with arrows. 

[tisdfogg]

The positioning and hitboxes in this game are pretty horrible, and that hurts melee more than anyone, but that's not even what bothers me the most.  Bugs are bugs, but the fact that so many of these encounters are built intentionally to be unforgiving to melee and embarassingly easy for range is the most frustrating for me. 

 

Nothing will barrier until you get in melee range... Really?  Bosses like Alexius toss out anti-melee AoE and anti-melee obstacles like candy and are able to teleport all around the area and barrier to avoid melee, but will sit there smiling and lobbing a slow, worthless bolt at the tank when you're shredding him to pieces with arrows. 

 

See, I agree with two previous posters that those are not bugs but bright ideas of some genius in Bioware. I really don't mind that archers have more freedom when it comes to mobility while attacking or that their attacks home on target (sometimes even through terrain), I really don't. What infuriates me, is that apparently, my front line fighters  are oblivious to the most basic rule of melee combat which is "don't move in a straight line or else you get rekt".

 

But I feel your pain. On my first NM playthrough the Haven battle was a huge difficulty spike for my DW rogue (and Iron Bull, Solas and Cass, yeah I know, terrible party, sue me). When later on I tried in with a bow I hardly had any trouble with it (sided with Templars).  

[Selea]

A shame that rogue archers do about half damage than DW rogues. But naturally this doesn't count, isn't it? The gameplay clearly sucks if you don't know how to play a class well.

Simply put if some people can get without getting hit by the mines while others cannot then one of twp does something wrong and I guess it's easy to understand who do things wrong, isn't it? Stealth DOESN'T let you hit by AOE effects so if you get hit by them you clearly aren't in stealth, it's as simple as that. As for barrier, that's a problem also ranged classes have and that's why you should have someone that can remove those barriers elsewhere you take 2x the time to kill those enemies.

And then ever heard about re-positioning skills? Warriors have Charging Bull and Lunge and Slash, DW rogues have Flank Attack and Hook and Tackle. You can move pretty fast with them. But naturally ranged classes have more uptime as it should be; this is fine because they do less damage overall. They have more uptime but they also have less burst damage capability and so it is perfectly balanced.

It seems to me we are restarting all the diatribe in the thread "DW rogues sucks" that has been debated to end and it has been shown that's not the case.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

DW geappeling chain while stealthed = dead

[skokie29]

According to official post on Bioware forum it is because you played Demon/Dark Souls. 

[tisdfogg]

A shame that rogue archers do about half damage than DW rogues. But naturally this doesn't count, isn't it? The gameplay clearly sucks if you don't know how to play a class well.

Simply put if some people can get without getting hit by the mines while others cannot then one of twp does something wrong and I guess it's easy to understand who do things wrong, isn't it? Stealth DOESN'T let you hit by AOE effects so if you get hit by them you clearly aren't in stealth, it's as simple as that. As for barrier, that's a problem also ranged classes have and that's why you should have someone that can remove those barriers elsewhere you take 2x the time to kill those enemies.

And then ever heard about re-positioning skills? Warriors have Charging Bull and Lunge and Slash, DW rogues have Flank Attack and Hook and Tackle. You can move pretty fast with them. But naturally ranged classes have more uptime as it should be; this is fine because they do less damage overall. They have more uptime but they also have less burst damage capability and so it is perfectly balanced.

It seems to me we are restarting all the diatribe in the thread "DW rogues sucks" that has been debated to end and it has been shown that's not the case.

 

Or just pointing out nonsensical design decisions? Seriously, I would trade all that imba damage for a better flow of melee, no lie. Hell, there is no reason at all for melee, not to have better flow AND imba damage. It's just lazy design. For a minmaxer you strangely lack empathy when people long for a perfect combat system. 

 

According to official post on Bioware forum it is because you played Demon/Dark Souls. 

 

Meaning, we are too spoiled by the combat system of those games? Yup, guilty your honor.