For a minmaxer you strangely lack empathy when people long for a perfect combat system.
When what you say is patently NOT true then what empathy should I have?
Ffs the best builds in this game are almost all melee and people like you either want to insist that the game is anti-melee. It's obvious that something doesn't quite add, isn't it?
Does melee take a while to get the hang of? Sure. Does melee really sucks as you say? No, it doesn't as it is proven by DW rogue and Reaver, for example.
It seems to me we are restarting all the diatribe in the thread "DW rogues sucks" that has been debated to end and it has been shown that's not the case.
Funny, I don't see any diatribes at all except... well, yours. I do see a lot of people commiserating about some faults in the melee combat system, as well as some helpful suggestions on how to work around those limitations. You seem to be perseverating on the OP's laments about the Alexius fight, rather than the fact that it was given as an example of an overall disfunction regarding melee characters.
Also, having the wrong party setup/build during a boss fight like the ones preceding the events at Haven is something that can only be changed by repeating content (which can sometimes involve loading a save from hours before) or bringing a respec amulet along, both of which are not ideal and would not be necessary if the system were balanced a wee bit better.
When what you say is patently NOT true then what empathy should I have?
Ffs the best builds in this game are almost all melee and people like you either want to insist that the game is anti-melee. It's obvious that something doesn't quite add, isn't it?
Does melee take a while to get the hang of? Sure. Does melee really sucks as you say? No, it doesn't as it is proven by DW rogue and Reaver, for example.
Quote please, where I state that melee sucks.
Funny, I don't see any diatribes at all except... well, yours. I do see a lot of people commiserating about some faults in the melee combat system, as well as some helpful suggestions on how to work around those limitations. You seem to be perseverating on the OP's laments about the Alexius fight, rather than the fact that it was given as an example of an overall disfunction regarding melee characters.
Also, having the wrong party setup/build during a boss fight like the ones preceding the events at Haven is something that can only be changed by repeating content (which can sometimes involve loading a save from hours before) or bringing a respec amulet along, both of which are not ideal and would not be necessary if the system were balance a wee bit better.
Lo and Behold! Someone gets it!
A shame that rogue archers do about half damage than DW rogues. But naturally this doesn't count, isn't it? The gameplay clearly sucks if you don't know how to play a class well.
Simply put if some people can get without getting hit by the mines while others cannot then one of twp does something wrong and I guess it's easy to understand who do things wrong, isn't it? Stealth DOESN'T let you hit by AOE effects so if you get hit by them you clearly aren't in stealth, it's as simple as that. As for barrier, that's a problem also ranged classes have and that's why you should have someone that can remove those barriers elsewhere you take 2x the time to kill those enemies.
And then ever heard about re-positioning skills? Warriors have Charging Bull and Lunge and Slash, DW rogues have Flank Attack and Hook and Tackle. You can move pretty fast with them. But naturally ranged classes have more uptime as it should be; this is fine because they do less damage overall. They have more uptime but they also have less burst damage capability and so it is perfectly balanced.
It seems to me we are restarting all the diatribe in the thread "DW rogues sucks" that has been debated to end and it has been shown that's not the case.
My point is that boss encounters are poorly balanced between melee and ranged challenges/obstacles, which, at least in the examples I've seen, is very obviously true. Others are stating that melee positioning, attack animations/trajectory and hit boxes in general are very poorly done in this game, which is also pretty obviously true.
You seem to be arguing a straw-man here, pretending we're all stating that DW Rogues aren't viable or playable, which we already know isn't true. Everythings beatable on Nightmare, and with the overpowered nature of specializations and crafting everything becomes easy. The problem is that melee characters are constantly fighting poor design and shoddy mechanics; which creates a very unsatisfying flow for combat.
Funny, I don't see any diatribes at all except... well, yours. I do see a lot of people commiserating about some faults in the melee combat system, as well as some helpful suggestions on how to work around those limitations. You seem to be perseverating on the OP's laments about the Alexius fight, rather than the fact that it was given as an example of an overall disfunction regarding melee characters.
People that commiserate melee builds are clearly people that don't know how to play yet. Simple as that. Do you want an evidence of this? One of those that here insist that melee works badly didn't either know that Flank Attack+ lets you enter in stealth and so he was complaining you have to wait 24 seconds for it.
It's really simple for me. You yet don't know how to play those classes and instead of learning you cry at how bad the controls are. There are some things that don't work so well? Sure. The game is anti-melee? Not at all since, again, the most powerful builds are melee in this game.
Quote please, where I state that melee sucks.
Maybe you should read the title of the thread.
My point is that boss encounters are poorly balanced between melee and ranged challenges/obstacles, which, at least in the examples I've seen, is very obviously true. Others are stating that melee positioning, attack animations/trajectory and hit boxes in general are very poorly done in this game, which is also pretty obviously true.
Quite true. Bioware tried and failed at this hybrid combat system. Action part is botched by weird hitboxes, lack of control and general unresponsiveness, while the numbers game is completely unbalanced unless you gimp yourself. If not for the OP damage you would scream in rage every time Shadow Strike misses for no damn reason at all, as it would be a difference between life and death on higher difficulties. Add to that the design of encounters that you mentioned and voilà - you get a combat system that is decent at its best and just functional rest of the time.
You seem to be arguing a straw-man here, pretending we're all stating that DW Rogues aren't viable or playable, which we already know isn't true. Everythings beatable on Nightmare, and with the overpowered nature of specializations and crafting everything becomes easy. The problem is that melee characters are constantly fighting poor design and shoddy mechanics; which creates a very unsatisfying flow for combat.
That seems to be his MO. Jump into a thread, skim through the posts, make a snarky comment in order to appear "smart" and back out when it becomes apparent that said comment has no relevance at all.
My point is that boss encounters are poorly balanced between melee and ranged challenges/obstacles, which, at least in the examples I've seen, is very obviously true. Others are stating that melee positioning, attack animations/trajectory and hit boxes in general are very poorly done in this game, which is also pretty obviously true.
1) Bosses are NOT poorly balanced for melee ffs. Do you stop saying things out of your mind just because you like to do it? You are just taking in consideration two of the early boss fights and since those privilege a little ranged given that at the time you still don't have enough skill points to do everything as a DW rogue optimally then they immediately become "anti-melee". An archer rogue has many less burst skills in the tree and it has no need of positioning tools. For this it's obvious that early in the game enemies that teleport or have defenses are easier to attack. This doesn't mean that the game is anti-melee, just that ranged classes are usually easier to play in the beginning. However this is balanced by the fact that they stop growing after a point while melee doesn't and it never stops to grow. By the middle-end game a melee build as DW has 10x better times against bosses (as Dragons) than an archer rogue. But naturally this doesn't count, isn't it?
2) I know that there are some problems at the moment with the control scheme, but those problems are things you can easily adjust to.
You seem to be arguing a straw-man here, pretending we're all stating that DW Rogues aren't viable or playable, which we already know isn't true. Everythings beatable on Nightmare, and with the overpowered nature of specializations and crafting everything becomes easy.
That's not the point, Sherlock. You completely miss what I'm saying. You complain that the game is anti-melee in the fact that ranged has an easy time but you just consider the beginning of the game where it's OBVIOUS that ranged classes (since they are easier to access) have the upper hand (at last for what it concerns accessibility).
This is considering only what you like and it is a biased judgment. I repeat: middle game a melee class as a DW rogue completely dominates an archer rogue. This has nothing to do with being OP or not, it is just that a melee class becomes much more powerful as time passes while ranged stops growing.
But naturally you were complaining about stealth before without either knowing about Flank Attack+ so I don't either get why I still continue replying to you.
That seems to be his MO. Jump into a thread, skim through the posts, make a snarky comment in order to appear "smart" and back out when it becomes apparent that said comment has no relevance at all.
Yes yes, it's always in this way. When you prove others wrong then you are trying to be "smart" or "provocative".
I don't skim anything at all, it is not me that just consider the 2 boss fights at the beginning and call it "ALL boss fights" when there are 50 more, the 2/3 of which are clearly beaten faster and easier with melee instead than ranged. But whatever...
If for example a DW rogue had the same accessibility and usability early in the game PLUS the growing of the build to be extremely powerful (given the huge difference in damage skills) then they would be hilariously unbalanced in comparison to archer rogues. Is it possible that you cannot really understand the difference between a build that takes time to become powerful and one that's easy to play in the beginning but then it never reaches that same power?
Maybe you should read the title of the thread.
Maybe you should read the OP. And a whole page of responses. It's not a lot of reading. A little secret: quite often posters tend to use catchy titles to draw attention and incite discussion. And it worked, you're here aren't you?
And for the last time: Yes DW Rogue has insane damage output it beats everything in the game. It even beats the poor design of the game itself. What does it matter that Hidden Blades missed when I used it on that bear? When it finally hits, it will one shot it anyway. That is exactly the point of this thread: for people here, lazy design covered up by unbalanced DPS is not the pinnacle of combat systems. It's just lazy. It is a critique of not polishing/putting thought into the system. They just gave us imba damage and hoped we won't notice the shortcomings of the system. Evidently, some of us do.
As for OP's problems with that particular fight it is just a symptom of the laziness described above. Later DW dominates not because the design gets better but because the numbers go up. But if you find DA:I's combat system perfection incarnate then there is really no point in convincing you otherwise.
Is it possible that you cannot really understand the difference between a build that takes time to become powerful and one that's easy to play in the beginning but then it never reaches that same power?
If you can't wrap your head around the idea that we're discussing actual combat mechanics here and not the numbers/damage output/whatever, I guess anything is possible.
And for the last time: Yes DW Rogue has insane damage output it beats everything in the game. It even beats the poor design of the game itself. What does it matter that Hidden Blades missed when I used it on that bear? When it finally hits, it will one shot it anyway. That is exactly the point of this thread: for people here, lazy design covered up by unbalanced DPS is not the pinnacle of combat systems. It's just lazy. It is a critique of not polishing/putting thought into the system. They just gave us imba damage and hoped we won't notice the shortcomings of the system. Evidently, some of us do.
Listen, you are so obviously (really, it's obvious, stop it) trying to steer the discussion now ONLY on the control scheme issues but maybe it is YOU that should read the thread as it is evident that the complains are NOT specifically about the controls but on the way a melee class approaches combat, and evidence of this is given with the Alexius fight with a DW. Controls have actually little (or almost nothing) to do with it at all (yes, sure, there's also talk of the hitboxes etc, but the primary topic is the easier time a ranged class has on winning a boss fight given how the boss does AOE and teleport). It seems to me you are desperately trying to change topic just so that you can be right given that you have nothing else at your disposal at this point.
As for OP's problems with that particular fight it is just a symptom of the laziness described above. Later DW dominates not because the design gets better but because the numbers go up. But if you find DA:I's combat system perfection incarnate then there is really no point in convincing you otherwise.
It has nothing to do with "numbers going up". It is a thing that has to do (let's see if now that's the third time I repeat it you get it) with the fact that melee builds given the more reliance on skills take time to grow to their potential. A DW rogue in comparison to an Archer, for example, has 3 times more burst skills plus it needs positioning tools. It's obvious that in the beginning of the game when the skills are little you will have an easier time (not for damage but for accessibility) with an archer rogue. It doesn't take a genius to understand why.
And no, not all classes become OP later on. Try to play with no crafted gear and then let's see the difference it does between playing a Mage and a DW rogue as far as having an easier time, want we? When you remove the most important key targets from the fight asap all becomes so much easier. The only thing that trivializes difficulty in this game is gear but that has nothing to do in itself with melee vs. ranged. Remove gear from the equation and then compare builds and you will see what I mean clearly: melee has actually an easier time by mid/late game than ranged.
Game is anti-melee early on but melee starts becoming a lot stronger and eventually is by far the best at end game.
Listen, you are so obviously (really, it's obvious, stop it) trying to steer the discussion now ONLY on the control scheme issues but maybe it is YOU that should read the thread as it is evident that the complains are NOT specifically about the controls but on the way a melee class approaches combat, and evidence of this is given with the Alexius fight with a DW. Controls have actually little (or almost nothing) to do with it at all (yes, sure, there's also talk of the hitboxes etc, but the primary topic is the easier time a ranged class has on winning a boss fight given how the boss does AOE and teleport). It seems to me you are desperately trying to change topic just so that you can be right given that you have nothing else at your disposal at this point.
And the OP rolled with it. Meaning my comment (not only my btw) about the flow of combat. If the OP asked to stay on point (Alexis fight) I would drop it, it's his thread after all. You're not a newbie to the internet forums with 340 posts and you don't know that topics tend to get slightly sidetracked from time to time? Sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities.
It has nothing to do with "numbers going up". It is a thing that has to do (let's see if now that's the third time I repeat it you get it) with the fact that melee builds given the more reliance on skills take time to grow to their potential. A DW rogue in comparison to an Archer, for example, has 3 times more burst skills plus it needs positioning tools. It's obvious that in the beginning of the game when the skills are little you will have an easier time (not for damage but for accessibility) with an archer rogue. It doesn't take a genius to understand why.
Work on your English. By "numbers going up" I meant exactly the outcome of the process you described above. Meaning: you grow in level, you get more burst skills, better gear etc. in effect your damage increases so yes the numbers do go up (numbers = damage, stats) that's what makes you rogue a badass.
And no, not all classes become OP later on. Try to play with no crafted gear and then let's see the difference it does between playing a Mage and a DW rogue as far as having an easier time, want we? When you remove the most important key targets from the fight asap all becomes so much easier. The only thing that trivializes difficulty in this game is gear but that has nothing to do in itself with melee vs. ranged. Remove gear from the equation and then compare builds and you will see what I mean clearly: melee has actually an easier time by mid/late game than ranged.
Funny you should mention gear. Currently I'm playing a no-crafting NM playthrough (DW rogue). Since I can't rely on imba damage to shred everything in sight the shortcomings of this combat system are even more apparent.
Also stop putting words in my mouth. I ask you to back your claim that I stated that "melee sucks" and you tell me to check the title of the thread. So posting in this thread equals to claiming that melee sucks? Guess what? You said that melee sucks. Also, where did I sate that all classes become OP? Can you quote me on that?
This whole thread gets derailed because you nitpick at/ misunderstand something I said and I have to pad my post count to explain my thought process in detail. I have no idea if you do it on purpose or just one of us fails at convening his point/ understanding the point of the other one (I'm not a native English speaker btw).
People that commiserate melee builds are clearly people that don't know how to play yet. Simple as that...
It's really simple for me. You yet don't know how to play those classes and instead of learning you cry at how bad the controls are. There are some things that don't work so well? Sure. The game is anti-melee? Not at all since, again, the most powerful builds are melee in this game.
Commiserating about faults in the melee combat system is not the same as commiserating regarding melee builds. Simple as that. Also, the diatribe is left in the quote in the hope that you'll see it for what it is and either switch modes of communication or stop it altogether.
Difficulty should be about combat mechanics like switching targets to maximise efficiency, using abilities that break certain defenses, and timing evasion/movement techniques that do not require specialization points that are already scarce. It should not be about fighting the game mechanics to make your character do what they can already do in other modes of combat/gameplay. In case that last bit is too vague, I am referring to archer characters' ability to move in the direction that they choose while firing, and the fact that DAMP has a sprint, but single player does not. Why I can't strafe left while attacking as a rogue is potentially understandable (even if I disagree with it being absent when it's present in other similar games), but why I can't sprint in single player when the functionality exists in multiplayer is incomprehensibly lame.
Also, since I can't find any, where are the 40 second dragon solo videos from all the warriors out there? I'd love to see them, since melee is, in your words, the most powerful builds in the game.
Finally (because I love doing this stuff), regarding the intent of the thread and the direction it has been moving since its inception, a large chunk has been about game mechanics, as evidenced by the following which, with the exception of the OP, includes only one post per poster (because I wanted to avoid redundancy, not because these are the only posts about melee mechanics vs. ranged mechanics):
...That makes the fight relatively challenging for DW Rogue on Nightmare, but that's not what bothers me. The irritating thing is that he does nothing to combat ranged DPS. Seriously, he just sits there getting pelted; never barriers, never moves, just sits at range firing a measly bolt at your tank...
This isn't the only example but it's one of the most jarring ones. Why is this game so easy on ranged characters?
...I think a big problem with enemies that AoE in melee is how unresponsive the controls feel at times. Without a sprint, the best you can do is spam the disengage button to get away from AoE attacks quickly, but that causes your entire team to disengage. I really don't understand why DAMP has a sprint, but single player doesn't.
...Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Alexius fight is hard, and I don't even think it's impossible to keep a DW Rogue involved and alive, I just think it's stupid that he, and pretty much every other mob, has a billion anti-melee implements and absolutely no anti-range. It bothers me that the most effective way to handle that fight is by benching my Inquisitor and letting my range characters auto-attack him to death, because my range characters will never be in any danger.
...The problem in DAI is that the difficulty drops down suddenly later on and that certain mechanics aren't very well balanced out. Both on the player side and on the side of mobs who hit 360° with melee moves.
I am pretty sure this intentional - it takes about 5s to finish an attack chain, making it impossible to avoid the triple mines/telegraphed dragon claw attack/whatever unless you have an evasive ability available to interrupt the lengthy attack animation.
Funnily, ranged rogues do not have this restriction (you can move and strafe while firing, but you can only lunge forward while using daggers, swords or two handed weapons)
The stupidity of this design choice boggles my mind. So an archer can freely move around while shooting, and a melee fighter is limited to attacking in a straight line? I know this is a power fantasy and all, but it is just ridiculous even by fantasy world standards...
I thought I was done, but then I realized that I'd forgotten about this:
Listen, you are so obviously (really, it's obvious, stop it) trying to steer the discussion now ONLY on the control scheme issues but maybe it is YOU that should read the thread as it is evident that the complains are NOT specifically about the controls but on the way a melee class approaches combat...
I agree, we shouldn't be talking about how melee classes control, we should be talking about how melee classes approach combat, which has nothing to do with how they control. It's that simple. /irony
1) Bosses are NOT poorly balanced for melee ffs. Do you stop saying things out of your mind just because you like to do it? You are just taking in consideration two of the early boss fights and since those privilege a little ranged given that at the time you still don't have enough skill points to do everything as a DW rogue optimally then they immediately become "anti-melee". An archer rogue has many less burst skills in the tree and it has no need of positioning tools. For this it's obvious that early in the game enemies that teleport or have defenses are easier to attack. This doesn't mean that the game is anti-melee, just that ranged classes are usually easier to play in the beginning. However this is balanced by the fact that they stop growing after a point while melee doesn't and it never stops to grow. By the middle-end game a melee build as DW has 10x better times against bosses (as Dragons) than an archer rogue. But naturally this doesn't count, isn't it?
2) I know that there are some problems at the moment with the control scheme, but those problems are things you can easily adjust to.
1) First, Alexius, and Envy apparently, don't privilege range just a little, Alexius isn't even a fight if you just pelt him at range. It doesn't matter that DW does a bit more damage when a ranged character is at absolutely no threat of even being injured for the entire fight. It's stupid design and I see it in other early encounters in the game as well. Nothing in this game so far will barrier to mitigate ranged damage; Nothing will attempt to move to avoid ranged damage; Nothing will off-target, AoE or inconvenience ranged characters in any way so long as there's a melee character with taunt alive in your group. To be honest, it makes the game feel too easy with ranged characters while melee DPS feels entirely unnecessary, even detrimental.
2) There are plenty of blatant problems with hit boxes and attack animations, and they're not even all bugs. It's just flagrantly poor design in many cases and it all hurts melee characters far more than range. Melee just not feeling right in this game has a rich tapestry of reasons, and being super bursty doesn't make it feel better when abilities are whiffing, animations are taking too long and you're being left out of position due to poor trajectory constantly.
I'm not very far in with my Qunari rogue, but so far the game has been far, far easier then with my mages
I get the feeling some people just like to hit mobs face-to-face with their rogues, like a tank. Then yeah, the class SUCKS, but that's not how you play it.
I'm not very far in with my Qunari rogue, but so far the game has been far, far easier then with my mages
I get the feeling some people just like to hit mobs face-to-face with their rogues, like a tank. Then yeah, the class SUCKS, but that's not how you play it.
Just to reiterate my own point, I agree that my DW Rogue is overall easier than my mage, because teleporting enemies, enemies that are immune to CC, and enemies with anti-melee mechanics are the exception, not the rule. Also, there is almost always a different enemy that I can focus on when those exceptions arise. Adding in stealth to dump aggro means that getting gibbed right at the start of a fight is much less likely.
However, it doesn't change the fact that there are issues with game mechanics and balancing that are only apparent when playing a melee character, and I find nothing more frustrating than when my character/team fails to respond correctly or as expected to my commands. For example, staying behind certain enemies can feel artificially difficult, rather than feeling like a fun mechanic, all because my character moves forward in a straight line with every regular attack, and there's no way to alter the direction that she moves in. Likewise, my 2h warrior can be frustrating because some moves knock enemies out of his melee range, and he doesn't move at all when making regular attacks. Stopping the attack to reposition breaks the flow of combat and can detract from enjoyment of the game.
Anti rogue maybe. Ninjas suck.
Warriors however can walk through this game on any difficulty.
Anti rogue maybe. Ninjas suck.
Warriors however can walk through this game on any difficulty.
What, no sunglasses meme or cool story macro? And here I was thinking the post would be substantive.
And the OP rolled with it. Meaning my comment (not only my btw) about the flow of combat. If the OP asked to stay on point (Alexis fight) I would drop it, it's his thread after all. You're not a newbie to the internet forums with 340 posts and you don't know that topics tend to get slightly sidetracked from time to time? Sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities.
The thread has NOT sidetracked. You are trying to do it. Check the posts in the thread and see the number of those that talk primarily about controls. Either you are bad at math or the object of the thread is still the supposed melee unfriendliness on boss fights.
Work on your English. By "numbers going up" I meant exactly the outcome of the process you described above. Meaning: you grow in level, you get more burst skills, better gear etc. in effect your damage increases so yes the numbers do go up (numbers = damage, stats) that's what makes you rogue a badass.
OMG. It's NOT just a matter of more damage. How can I put this in your head? It's not difficult to understand, really. A melee class becomes better at positioning, survivability and versatility as the build grows. Your "numbers going up" is completely faulted because it doesn't absolutely take in consideration other things but damage.
Funny you should mention gear. Currently I'm playing a no-crafting NM playthrough (DW rogue). Since I can't rely on imba damage to shred everything in sight the shortcomings of this combat system are even more apparent.
Then you are doing something reaaaaaally wrong, because if you have an harder time with a DW rogue vs. an Archer rogue with limited gear from mid to late game there's no other way out. A DW rogue by mid game onwards completely overshadow an archer build, ESPECIALLY without crafter gear. There's not even comparison. I don't know what you are doing wrong, sincerely, but just because you have a problem somewhere it doesn't mean that the problem is objective.
Also stop putting words in my mouth. I ask you to back your claim that I stated that "melee sucks" and you tell me to check the title of the thread. So posting in this thread equals to claiming that melee sucks? Guess what? You said that melee sucks. Also, where did I sate that all classes become OP? Can you quote me on that?
1) You are not the center of the universe, you know. This thread is about a subject and I'm talking about THAT subject. If you want to talk of things that don't pertain to the primary object of the discussion just to try to have a point then so be it, but I always replied to the matter at hand and I will continue to do so.
2) If you post in a thread that implies that melee sucks since the game is obviously anti-melee and you say you agree with it then it's obvious that you imply that you think the same. If your point of view was different you should have made that objection (for example by saying that the gameplay is not anti-melee but only the scheme controls are more easy on ranged), a thing you HAVEN'T done.
3) You stated that "the numbers go up" and I thought you referred it in general, not only on a DW rogue. My bad if you intended it just for that.
Funny, I feel the game is a lot harder as an archer/mage than it is on a warrior and especially a DW rogue.
On my DW rogue I can simply stealth and initiate any fight by taking out the archers pretty much immediately. On my mage I'm gonna eat some arrows because I'll never crit something for 6-7k+ damage and have a complete aggro drop. Even with threat drop on my mage, I'm constantly a priority target.
I'll give you that at the beginning of the game, those hurlock alpha/hammer types and bears are pretty stupid with the 360 attack spam. But as soon as you get to skyhold and get some schematics you start to wreck everything.
I'm comparing the damage of my DW rogue vs. my Necromancer, and it's not even close. And in this game, it's all about burst.
Dragons are not hard, don't mistake babysitting retarded AI for the game being hard. Every single attack from a dragon or giant is so slow, it can easily be avoided. You are more likely to die to archer focus fire than any of the "elite" mobs.
1) First, Alexius, and Envy apparently, don't privilege range just a little, Alexius isn't even a fight if you just pelt him at range. It doesn't matter that DW does a bit more damage when a ranged character is at absolutely no threat of even being injured for the entire fight. It's stupid design and I see it in other early encounters in the game as well.
You say so because, guess what, there are melee classes that put the threat away from the ranged one. Play Alexius with only ranged party members and see what it happens, want you? You will see that if he focuses on you then you are dead in less than 5 seconds on nightmare as an archer rogue.
Nothing in this game so far will barrier to mitigate ranged damage; Nothing will attempt to move to avoid ranged damage; Nothing will off-target, AoE or inconvenience ranged characters in any way so long as there's a melee character with taunt alive in your group.
Nothing?
Assassins (or rogue enemies) will go to the back line to attack your ranged members and usually even kill them outright with a single backstab if you aren't attentive.
Many enemies are resistant (have defense) against ranged attacks. Shielded enemies are almost completely immune to ranged attacks (apart magical ones) for example.
Never heard about Terrors? They are the bane of ranged attackers.
Oh well, whatever
To be honest, it makes the game feel too easy with ranged characters while melee DPS feels entirely unnecessary, even detrimental.
You continue to insist this but yet, who knows why, you probably never tried running a full ranged party without a tank (melee) to put away the threat from the ranged members, then you would immediately change idea. Your ranged PC works apparentely so well and easy just because there's a melee party members that gets all the aggro and gets you hit things from far without problems. If you hadn't that then you would not be able to do almost anything as a ranged class. If that would be the case would you scream at "the game is so anti-ranged" as you are doing with melee?
It's easy to just consider what you like and discard all the rest.
You say so because, guess what, there are melee classes that put the threat away from the ranged one. Play Alexius with only ranged party members and see what it happens, want you? You will see that if he focuses on you then you are dead in less than 5 seconds on nightmare as an archer rogue.
Nothing?
Assassins (or rogue enemies) will go to the back line to attack your ranged members and usually even kill them outright with a single backstab if you aren't attentive.
Many enemies are resistant (have defense) against ranged attacks. Shielded enemies are almost completely immune to ranged attacks (apart magical ones) for example.
Never heard about Terrors? They are the bane of ranged attackers.
Oh well, whatever
You continue to insist this but yet, who knows why, you probably never tried running a full ranged party without a tank (melee) to put away the threat from the ranged members, then you would immediately change idea. Your ranged PC works apparentely so well and easy just because there's a melee party members that gets all the aggro and gets you hit things from far without problems. If you hadn't that then you would not be able to do almost anything as a ranged class. If that would be the case would you scream at "the game is so anti-ranged" as you are doing with melee?
It's easy to just consider what you like and discard all the rest.
First, yes what I'm saying is all contingent on the fact that there's a tank holding aggro. No Tank and every kind of DPS class is incredibly difficult to play, but, besides novelty playthroughs a tank will always be there.
As for assassins, from what I've seen they attack indiscriminately which I guess is at least one instance where melee and ranged are at least similarly inconvenienced.
Shielded enemies, just have the tank turn them around. Melee DPS has to flank them as well.
And Terrors? You mean the unit that's main attack is an AoE slow/incapacitate that only effects characters in melee range?
I will say that after finishing the battle in Haven and beating Knight Captain Denam I have a little more faith in the games boss encounters. That was actually well done and challenging without the mechanics just feeling stupidly biased against melee to the point where a melee Rogue feels like a complete waste of a character slot.
Edit: I'd also like to add that I could easily beat Alexius with just 2 ranged characters. That single, slow bolt he fires that constitutes his ONLY ranged offense is incredibly easy to dodge. Just have whoever has aggro run in a circle while the other auto attacks him to death.
-snip-
^Shortened it to avoid wall of text.
Concerning sidetracking/derailment: kstarler already explained it better than I could. Just to add: My first post in this thread (no. 19) was a response to another poster who complained about the animations. I expressed my agreement. My second post (21) is directly in response to OP who quite agrees that there are problems with the mechanics of combat in general not just the fight with Alexius. Then comes your condescending, passive aggressive post (that would be no. 22) that basically meant "learn to play u nubz". To that I, quite politely, replied that we criticize combat mechanics not viability of the classes. Everything else that I posted after was simply defending myself from your attempts to twist my words so they can better fit your straw-man. How in hell is that derailment?
As to you comment about my current non-crafting NM game: Yet another sweeping assumption: where did I say that I'm having a tougher time on my DW than on my archer? I don't even have a archer rogue because I don't like the playstyle. I treid it of course for some 20 hours to see if I like it but that was it. What I did say is now that I have no imba gear (as opposed to my previous playthrough), the faults of the combat system are more apparent. Both playthroughs involve DW rogue.
The numbers and the damage: They were used as an example to show you the difference between actual combat design and viability of the classes within that design. One that you apparently cannot grasp. Maybe an analogy will do better: Skyrim (vanilla) has an bland, generic, repetitive combat system that lacks depth. Now the fact that I can still create OP gear that allows me to wipe the floor with dragons on Master Legendary difficulty, or the fact that my character becomes practically invisible with high enough stealth, does not improve the quality of the core combat mechanics. While much better, DA:I's combat system has many flaws that are likewise not masked by the viability of the particular class. DW rogue is boss, hands down. Does not change the fact that animations are sluggish and restrictive.
As to accusation that I agree that melee sucks: Forget it, I found that quote for you:
The stupidity of this design choice boggles my mind. So an archer can freely move around while shooting, and a melee fighter is limited to attacking in a straight line? I know this is a power fantasy and all, but it is just ridiculous even by fantasy world standards.
Anyway OP, the balance in this game is all over the place. Truth be told Bioware games usually are more "ranged-friendly" in a sense that ranged chars enjoy more comfortable gameplay, and melee people have to jump more hoops to get the most out of their characters. It can be frustrating.
The important part is underlined. Oh wait... I think I actually state here that archers just have more comfortable playstyle and melee rogues just lack the "quality of life" improvements. The "balance all over the place" refers to crafting system in case you're wondering. That's the last time I ask you: Where, exactly where, show me some proof, I state that melee sucks?
Conclusion: You bash people for no reason at all and when they defend themselves you label is as "sidetracking". Well, if not for your straw-maning they wouldn't have to defend themselves in the first place. Also you seem to be under the illusion that I'm sitting here, twirling my mustache, waiting for you to admit that you're wrong so I can throw a press conference about how I "defeated" some random dude in an internet argument. Well no, discussing things is not a zero sum game for me in which someone gotta lose and someone gotta win. Clearly, for you it is, hence I don't see a point in continuing this game. Normally I would say that we can agree to disagree but since that won't satisfy you: Go ahead, add +1 to your score, I'm done playing.
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