162 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad. 

 

One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.

[RobRam10]

Just pledge your loyalty to the Imperium already.

[vertigomez]

It's ye olde freedom versus security conundrum.

Though, honestly, I'm more apt to side with the guy on the bottom of Tevinter's food chain. Dorian's great, but he's from the upper-class. An elite. A talented mage in a country ruled by talented mages. His and Fenris's life experiences, in Tevinter and abroad, are so far apart I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

[katerinafm]

Of course he contradicts him, he's a tevinter NOBLE MAGE XD. His views are influenced. Like he says, slavery never struck him as something that could be questionable until he left Tevinter. He's been living in the most privileged position he could be in Tevinter his entire life.

[Chernaya]

It's just an issue of perspective, neither person is strictly wrong and their intentions are good from their respective viewpoints, but they've had completely opposite experiences. Fenris wasn't one of those 'lucky', nicely treated slaves Dorian was talking about. And Dorian, as much of a sweetheart as he is, can't completely understand that subject because he's never been a slave. He's only seen it from the outside.

[Lady Artifice]

And they're both right. Because perspective is that big a deal. It changes everything.

[AtreiyaN7]

I believe that when you're chatting with Dorian about slavery, he acknowledges that not all slave owners are nice, etc. So while it might hold true for some slaves that they get to have families and get to lead relatively non-horrible lives, it doesn't hold true for those slaves with abusive masters. I'm not really seeing that much of a contradiction here.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Didn't Fenris' sister pretty much state she preferred being in slavery to being free?

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Dorian sees it from the top down, Fenris saw it from the bottom up.

Of course their conclusions are different.

Dorian is also a mage... Fenris really wasn't.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Didn't Fenris' sister pretty much state she preferred being in slavery to being free?

 

Yup.

 

Dorian does not really contradict Fenris. He says that slavery in Tevinter is not all as bad as what Southerners believe (cases like Fenris's), but he does not deny that abuses can happen, either.

 

I agree that slavery may not be worse than being hopelessly poor as many folks are in Thedas. The problem IMO is with people having ownership of other people in a place with rampant blood-magic.

[BabyFratelli]

Slavery in Tevinter seems to reflect how slavery was treated by Ancient Romans (Thedas societies reflect a lot of Classical civilizations. I see you, writers .) Many, many, people preferred to be slaves as they'd often be given responsibilities like educating children that would earn them more respectable incomes and positions. They'd become members of the family, and have their retirement plans and such all sorted out. The easiest way for a family in slavery to become middle or upper class themselves was to stay enslaved until they could afford not to be.

 

The issue is that these people still didn't really have a choice. It was essentially choosing between that, or poverty, or risk being forced into servitude by a family less kind.

 

There were of course, slaves who were horribly physically abused and forced into awful labor, etc, etc.

 

Fenris was a slave. His perspective is going to be different to Dorians, who despite his judgements against his homeland, actually is quite defensive and patriotic. He can't understand what it was like for Fenris, just like Fenris could never understand what it was like for Dorian. Neither of them are wrong, just different.

[fizzypop]

So basically "hey it could be worse so who cares if you have no freedom?" Terrible argument. I would rather have my freedom.

[d-boy15]

They both come from different part of society. Fenris is lived under evil master while Dorian is a son of noble tavinter who actually not really a bad guy.

[Former_Fiend]

My grandmother used to say, "There are three sides to every story. There's my side, there's your side, and then there's what happened."

 

Neither Fenris nor Dorian are omniscient. Both are limited in their exposure to Tevinter; Fenris has seen it's worst. So has Dorian, but he's also seen it's best. Fenris only ever knew hardship, Dorian only ever knew luxury. 

 

Both they, and Krem for that matter, offer unique views into Tevinter society and culture.

[BabyFratelli]

So basically "hey it could be worse so who cares if you have no freedom?" Terrible argument. I would rather have my freedom.

 

Agreed. Most people would. That's why, you know, generally, slavery = bad.

[Cat Fancy]

I think it's preposterous the kind of equivalence people are making between the opinion of an incredibly privileged member of the slave-owning class and an actual slave, but I guess I'm not surprised.

 

(if only because I keep seeing people do this!)

 

Remember how all those potential slaves in Origins were not making similar statements about slavery in Tevinter? No one was like, "Look, slavery isn't perfect, but being poor and free isn't the best thing in the world, either. Makes you think, doesn't it."

 

I also don't know why people seem to believe that there isn't any poverty in Tevinter, either. Like, even if they don't have free poor people, just slaves, there can still be impoverished and starving slaves. In fact, I'd say it's likely.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Perspective is a wonderful thing, everyone has got one. I would even go so far as to say that my perspective on my own country is completely different to the guy that's rummaging through peoples recycling bins every Tuesday morning looking for empty cans to sell.  

[Chrys]

It's not a contradiction. Many, say, city elves In Orlais and Ferelden have shittier lives than the luckier Tevinter slaves. Many, many Tevinter slaves have shittier lives than other city elves. Pretty much everyone in the south and many Tevinter slaves would rather be free than being a slave, regardless of living conditions, but some like Fenris' sister would rather be a slave than the alternative. Remember how surprised he was that his sister wasn't happy at all that he bought her freedom? But that doesn't erase the fact that Dorian is presenting a best case scenario in Tevinter against a worst case scenario in the south.

[Hazegurl]

Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad. 

 

One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.

Dorian does not cancel Fenris out. He simply provides a different side and it's from the side of the privileged. Not saying that is bad but that he will naturally see slavery with a different set of eyes than an actual slave. The fact remains is that blood magic is rampant, Magisters are out of control, slaves are butchered. What we have learned is that not every slave owner is like this and Fenris was unlucky to be around the bunch that he was with. However, if the vast majority of slaves were happy, then why the revolts? There is something obviously wrong there that we may never really see unless we go to Tevinter (wink nudge BioWare lol).

[Former_Fiend]

I think it's preposterous the kind of equivalence people are making between the opinion of an incredibly privileged member of the slave-owning class and an actual slave, but I guess I'm not surprised.

 

(if only because I keep seeing people do this!)

 

Remember how all those potential slaves in Origins were not making similar statements about slavery in Tevinter? No one was like, "Look, slavery isn't perfect, but being poor and free isn't the best thing in the world, either. Makes you think, doesn't it."

 

I also don't know why people seem to believe that there isn't any poverty in Tevinter, either. Like, even if they don't have free poor people, just slaves, there can still be impoverished and starving slaves. In fact, I'd say it's likely.

 

As a matter of fact, Krem gives a good perspective of the lower class freemen in Tevinter. His father is one of the very people who had to sell himself into slavery because he could no longer afford to provide for the family. Krem certainly isn't happy about it.

[Efvie]

One might want to apply the concept of privilege to what Dorian has to say. He will hardly have an accurate picture of what a slave’s life is like.

 

On the other hand, neither was Fenris’ experience typical.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Didn't Fenris' sister pretty much state she preferred being in slavery to being free?

but she is indoctrinated.

[AzureAardvark]

but she is indoctrinated.

 

Frickin' Harbinger ... 

[Wolfen09]

there is no such thing as freedom, we are all slaves.... to the rhythm... ok yeah had to get that out of my system....  most of the time when we hear the word slavery, we associate it with the abusive type...  there are 2 sides to that coin my friend, many of your ancestors that came over to the americas were in fact indentured servants... or as we know them, slaves...  they sold themselves for passage to the colonies and worked for a patron until their debt was paid off...  this is the kind of slavery that dorian sees...  fenris sees the forcibly captured and abusive side of slavery.  The fact that slavery=evil is not necessarily true, as sometimes it is more beneficial to the slave rather than harmful....

[Sah291]

It was much the same with the mage circle debate, I thought. The circles are relatively safe, clean, and comfortable. Food and shelter is provided. Education is provided. No hard manual labor. But how comfortable slavery is or isn't misses the point. These are/were involuntary institutions, and privileges aren't the same thing as rights. I think maybe we expect that slavery is always going to appear very brutal (like Fenris describes), but that isn't always necessarily the case. When the only other alternative appears to be poverty/slums, freedom isn't popular or desirable. Fenris sold himself into slavery so that his sister could have her freedom and she hates him for it.