162 réponses à ce sujet

[veeia]

Dorian straight up admits he had never even thought about slavery and what it might mean until he left Tevinter, and even then, his perspective on it is hardly unbiased because he is trying to focus on what Tevinter could be. He's privileged and blind to the world he grew up in and he has NO idea how Tevinter slaves feel, only assumptions which are IMO, extremely naive.

He is an excellent counterpoint to Fenris's exteme views, but neither should be taken as the truth, only two tiny insights into what life in Tevinter is like for people from two radically different backgrounds.

When he compares slavery to alienages, he's not saying "they're the same", he is saying "don't get on too much of a high horse there and judge Tevinter without looking at yourself too." Which is a fair point, especially to Trevelyan, but would be made more effectively if he didn't sidestep the issue entirely. But that's all he can do, because again, he has no idea what life is like for slaves. He never asked nor spoke to them much, and if he had, most likely they would lie to him, because generally you don't complain about that stuff to people who have power over you.

[InstantNoodlez]

Dorian, bless his well-meaning heart, had a very narrow view of things before he walked out of his father's house and shadow to see the world. Would he have noticed Leto, had he passed the man by on the streets? If he did not even notice the man, how could he notice his suffering? Should he be a returning character next game, or present in DLCs set in later dates, I would like to see if Dorian got an updated view on the lower classes, now that he had come down from his tower to walk with them a while.

 

Slavery implies lack of wage (no pay), lack of security (can be sold or worse at any time), and lack of rights (property has no rights).

 

The issue at hand is that the poor in the rest of Thedas also have little rights. See how the Chevaliers of Orlais cut down alienage elves for "training". See how carelessly the elite play their games with their servants as expendable pieces? See how entire communities got rolled over by templar/mage armies. I guess the one right they have is the ability to run away. Ah but all those corpses over each hill my Inquisitor has climbed. Personally I would not wish to live under either system. The wealth discrepancy is too great in both cases. Societies with large wealth discrepancies tend to twist toward the perverse, no matter what system they profess to run under.

 

In the end both general populace suffer slavery of one form or another. Tevinter is worse due to the rampant use of blood magic, and the lack of rights by law. At least in Ferelden a peasant would have some rights by law, if not by practice. Sera and Fenris really should have a talk with each other, and compare notes.

[robertmarilyn]

Dorian really has no idea what life is like for those below him. Didn't even take the time to ponder how the other side feels. 

 

Then there is Viv, who doesn't care that other mages don't have the freedoms that she has, as long as she's living in her palace and fancy summer homes, hobnobbing with royalty. I do like Dorian much better than I like Viv but I feel guilty about that because I think it's mostly because I like his looks (although he's really a little too high maintenance for me). 

[AlexiaRevan]

Of course he contradicts him, he's a tevinter NOBLE MAGE XD. His views are influenced. Like he says, slavery never struck him as something that could be questionable until he left Tevinter. He's been living in the most privileged position he could be in Tevinter his entire life.

So much this....

[Willowhugger]

I kept thinking of the Antebellum South and the people descended from plantation owners or who were related to them. One of my relatives, a Great Aunt who was ninety-nine years old when I was a child was someone who grew up within spitting distance of the Civil War.

 

She had a different sort of opinion to slavery than you'd get with "modern" people because she had a romanticized view of it from her actual Civil War plantation owner relatives. She was raised and taught slaves were happy with their lot, that abuses were uncommon, and that the whole thing was sort of like living in Medieval Europe with the plantation overlords being their own sorts of Kings and knightly class.

 

And, of course, this view was DEAD WRONG.

 

It was cultivated directly by the ruling class and a blind eye was turned to the problems involved because it was so much more convenient than the truth. Even now, we're only now starting to examine just how awful the system really was. The causal sexual, physical, and emotional abuse of the people under the care of the plantation owners.

 

I think for "normal" Tevinter, like Dorian, it's probably not that different from servitude you see in Orlais or Fereldan where people work for them. However, we see how elves are treated in Orlais, how bad is it in a society where there's literally no penalty for killing someone or using them as an involuntary sex toy because they are property?

Probably pretty bad.

 

Slavers are "people" but it's an evil system. It also warps the views of the slave owners as to what's permissible as much as it does the slaves. Life under Dorian probably wouldn't be so bad anymore than the slave under Hawke (Fenris Disapproves -100) but you don't need too many folk like Arl Vaughn or Denarius to see how it could go disastrously wrong.

[veeia]

I think Trevelyan has a leg up on any of this, just for the fact that we recruit different types of people and groups. It shows that you're not the type of noble with your head up your ass. Or at least, it's possible to play this way.

Oh, I just mean because Trev is a noble, even if a Mage. The other three have definitely experienced more oppression than Dorian, while Trev speaks from a similar place of privilege . It's not as awkward if Dorian tries to compare Tevinter slavery to Feraldan poverty with Trev than if he does to Lavellan, for example, whose people are actually the ones in alienages...or Cadash, who is a low class criminal, or Adaar, a low class mercenary. Those three inarguably know more about it than him, Trev can be headcanoned all kinds of ways, for sure, but it's not the same.

[Willowhugger]

Oh, I just mean because Trev is a noble, even if a Mage. The other three have definitely experienced more oppression than Dorian, while Trev speaks from a similar place of privilege . It's not as awkward if Dorian tries to compare Tevinter slavery to Feraldan poverty with Trev than if he does to Lavellan, for example, whose people are actually the ones in alienages...or Cadash, who is a low class criminal, or Adaar, a low class mercenary. Those three inarguably know more about it than him, Trev can be headcanoned all kinds of ways, for sure, but it's not the same.

 

I admit, I find it interesting you can do Trev as a nobleman who has been at fancy balls and chats with his family.

But also, "I was taken from my family and put in a prison where I never saw them again."

 

It kind of made my chats with Viv and Dorian interesting.

 

Dorian talking about the Circles like they were Hogwarts.

[dragonflight288]

I admit, I find it interesting you can do Trev as a nobleman who has been at fancy balls and chats with his family.

But also, "I was taken from my family and put in a prison where I never saw them again."

 

It kind of made my chats with Viv and Dorian interesting.

 

Dorian talking about the Circles like they were Hogwarts.

 

To Dorian in Tevinter, the Circle's would be like Hogwarts. He wouldn't know anything different. 

[veeia]

I haven't done a Trev mage yet, sounds like it will be interesting when I get to it!

[Master Warder Z_]

Perspective.

[Milan92]

I really liked that we got a perspective of both sides. 

 

I almost wish we could have a dlc where Fenris meets Dorian and then watch the party banter unfold.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I really liked that we got a perspective of both sides. 

 

I almost wish we could have a dlc where Fenris meets Dorian and then watch the party banter unfold.

 

That would be amazing, imagine Dorian's snark against Fenris' brooding.

[Augustei]

"No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise."

[Willowhugger]

I will say, that while Fenris is probably closer to the truth, there's a bit of irony which also needs to be addressed.

Fenris' circumstances were unique.

 

Not many slaves will have literally no memory of their lives other than being a Blood Magic controlled doomsday weapon.

He ONLY remembers the bad and abuse. Not his family, friends, or how he got through slavery beforehand.

Only Denarius' horrific abuse.

 

More slaves are probably like Kitchen GirlTM who romanticize their masters.

And assume they did something wrong when things go bad.

[Willowhugger]

I haven't done a Trev mage yet, sounds like it will be interesting when I get to it!

 

The options are surprisingly varied.

"Oh, you're a Trevalyn. Should we contact them? Did you enjoy the balls they hosted?"

1. "Oh yes, they were splendid."

 

2. "I always found them boring."

3. "I was imprisoned in a tower. How the hell should I know?"

[vertigomez]

Folks talking about "good slavery" or "it could be worse slavery" like there is such a thing.

It doesn't matter whether you're being whipped or sexually assaulted or otherwise tortured every day. When somebody can walk right up to you and buy you like furniture, regardless of how... "well" they treat you, it's bad.

[Willowhugger]

Folks talking about "good slavery" or "it could be worse slavery" like there is such a thing.

It doesn't matter whether you're being whipped or sexually assaulted or otherwise tortured every day. When somebody can walk right up to you and buy you like furniture, regardless of how... "well" they treat you, it's bad.

 

It's an evil evil institution.

 

The institution, however, has to have two things to survive.

 

1. The owners have to believe what they're doing isn't unforgivably evil.

 

2. The slaves have to think the alternative (death or trying to escape) is worse.

[Panda]

Dorian doesn't contradict Fenris. He gives his view as noble Tevinter mage and Fenris gives his view as former slave of Tevinter magister. Their view and experience of Tevinter is fully different. Why would Fenris say something good about Tevinter when all he experiences was pretty bad? Dorian in other hand has experienced some of the both sides of Tevinter. However he's view doesn't make Fenris' view invalid. People have different life stories, value different things and two people in same society can live entirely different lives like they both have.

[eternalshiva]

Most slaves aren't tattooed with Lyrium, either. Fenrir's experience is pretty f***ing horrible compared to other slaves. Plus, it was heavily suggested that his owner kept him basically as a pet and a killing machine with no mind of his own.

 

From what I gather in speaking with Dorian, most people sell themselves into slavery to lead better lives, which is kinda messed up. Magic slaves are "raised" from that status to "normal" otherwise, unless you're a mage in Tevinter, you're a slave or you live a really horrible life of freedom.

[DemGeth]

Slavery doesn't eliminate a poorer class it generates a larger one by concentrating more wealth into fewer hands.

So false premise to begin with, I'd be disappointed in 4 if they went that moral conundrum route because it's a bit silly.

[katokires]

Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad. 

 

One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.

It is always worse. I don't even believe in any degree of free will, but if we grow learning that we are individuals with free will and we have this perception about ourselves as a core of our identity, there is nothing more cruel than restricting this we believe define us called choices. If you believe in free will you can still come up with "you can choose how to deal with what happened to you" but still the feeling of injustice will probably be overwhelming for most.

 

Human beings are not very fond of huge handicaps and stuff like that thats why people take pity on the underdogs and tend to despise those who had it all from the start, Curiosly the most hurt are not the most angry because we tend to adapt and most people will just get on with their lives even if they are slaves unless they suffer beyond their limits, but whether they accept it or not it is still cruel. You can in fact use conditioning to make a human being whatever you want them to be, or get only a few specific behavior or behavior set but if you believe in free will like most people it is just cruel, heartless, evil, clearly a lack of empathy probably a psychopath.

[Willowhugger]

Slavery doesn't eliminate a poorer class it generates a larger one by concentrating more wealth into fewer hands.

So false premise to begin with, I'd be disappointed in 4 if they went that moral conundrum route because it's a bit silly.

 

It's a thin excuse, really. If there's no slums in Tevinter, it's because they have socialized bread and circuses or EVERYONE poor is enslaved.

 

We saw what the poor and destitute think of slavery already, too.

The Denerim Elves found it a MUCH worse prospect.