Of course he contradicts him, he's a tevinter NOBLE MAGE XD. His views are influenced. Like he says, slavery never struck him as something that could be questionable until he left Tevinter. He's been living in the most privileged position he could be in Tevinter his entire life.
Are you saying Dorian needs to check his privilege?
Dorian was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and can be somewhat naive and romanticize things. Fenris was a slave who was tortured, physically and mentally abused, and probably sexually assaulted (it was hinted at, and I recall David Gaider had confirmed it at one point, but I can't locate where I read it- I am in the camp that it's canon that he was). Neither one of those sides cancels out the other, and Dorian glossing it over does not invalidate Fenris' experiences as a slave. If I had to choose, would I want to be a slave to Dorian or Denarius? I'd pick Dorian, I wouldn't need to ask any more questions beyond those two choices. If I had to choose between any form of slavery, even for a nice master who gives me good food and fancy clothes and treats me well, and freedom- freedom is the answer. Most people, I imagine, would rather be free (there are exceptions, there always are).
Dorian and Fenris are coming from total opposites of the spectrum. Both of their experiences are valid. One does not make the other untrue. Dorian is very naive in many respects, however, and Fenris is very bigoted against mages. I second seeing them both as companions to the PC, their arguments would be epic.
As an aside, David Gaider wrote Fenris and Dorian. I am confident that he is capable of remembering what he wrote for a previous character and being able to write another with an opposing view without it making the previous one invalid. Most authors will do this- they will create a precedent with one character and establish "facts" and lore through that character's eyes, and then deconstruct it with another character. It's a very fun thing to do and helps round out the fictional world.
Slavery is basically a game of trust.
Except, you have no option to trust, you just have to.
You have to trust the person will never abuse his absolute power over you and will be able to afford to take care of you your entire life and that you won't be harshly punished if you ever displease him.
Those are a huge number of ifs.
Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad.
One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.
There are slums in Tevinter. Don't you remember what Varania says - "You have no idea what we went through, what I've had to do since mother died"? Slavery does not eliminate poverty, if anything it makes it more glaring. However, no matter her contempt and accusations, Varania didn't choose to sell herself back to coveted slavery. Didn't you ask yourself once - why, if she'd be treated nicely, as Dorian describes? If she could rise as a slave, have a family, maybe save her mother from dying with providing for her? Did you wonder - why she didn't? Maybe because it's not as rose-tinted glasses Dorian saw it through?
And that argument about alienages in comparison to slavery, as if it somehow justifies it... Aztecs owned slaves too, that doesn't make plantation slavery in the US any better.
P.S. Oh, and Fenris didn't sell himself into slavery to free his family. He was a slave, probably from the birth. His first memory of Varania and previous life with a family - "I remember you. We played in our master's courtyard while mother worked."
the whole thing is perspective. Keep in mind that both Fenris and Dorian are speaking from their own experinces. They are both correct, but one should also not take what they say to be the gospel either.
There are slums in Tevinter. Don't you remember what Varania says - "You have no idea what we went through, what I've had to do since mother died"?
What's weird is she's a mage.
According to Dorian, that means she should be Altus.
She should be able to get a job bookkeeping or get sent to Hogwarts.
Even if she's not going to be part of House Slytherin with the other Purebloods like Dorian and Draco Malfoy.
Yeah, she's Hufflepuff but everything we know about Tevinter suggests being a mage should have been a massive step up for her family even in slavery.
What's weird is she's a mage.
According to Dorian, that means she should be Altus.
She should be able to get a job bookkeeping or get sent to Hogwarts.
Even if she's not going to be part of House Slytherin with the other Purebloods like Dorian and Draco Malfoy.
Yeah, she's Hufflepuff but everything we know about Tevinter suggests being a mage should have been a massive step up for her family even in slavery.
NO. An altus is not tevinter class of mages. Most tevinter mages are not of the Altus class but of the Laetern Class, which is below the Altus. The Altus class are those who can trace their bloodline back to the days of the ancient dreamers. More over one attending the circles is a priviliage, and that means that not every mage is going to attend a circle.
What's weird is she's a mage.
According to Dorian, that means she should be Altus.
She should be able to get a job bookkeeping or get sent to Hogwarts.
Even if she's not going to be part of House Slytherin with the other Purebloods like Dorian and Draco Malfoy.
Yeah, she's Hufflepuff but everything we know about Tevinter suggests being a mage should have been a massive step up for her family even in slavery.
Uh no, an Atlus is descend from the first dreamers who contacted the old gods. They are the first class mage families.
NO. An altus is not tevinter class of mages. Most tevinter mages are not of the Altus class but of the Laetern Class, which is below the Altus. The Altus class are those who can trace their bloodline back to the days of the ancient dreamers. More over one attending the circles is a priviliage, and that means that not every mage is going to attend a circle.
Sorry, got those confused. Dorian is Altus.
You know what I mean, though.
What's weird is she's a mage.
According to Dorian, that means she should be Altus.
She should be able to get a job bookkeeping or get sent to Hogwarts.
Even if she's not going to be part of House Slytherin with the other Purebloods like Dorian and Draco Malfoy.
Yeah, she's Hufflepuff but everything we know about Tevinter suggests being a mage should have been a massive step up for her family even in slavery.
Furthermore, if she's anything like Fenris she's been a slave her whole life and doesn't even know how to read. I doubt she has many skills that are marketable in the Sporati job market so she knows no trade. she's also an elf which even in the Tevinter Circles are heavily discriminated against in Tevinter. So she's an old, can't read, been a slave her whole life, elf in Tevinter. Yeah her best bet unfortunately is to ****** herself out. At least Fenris can kill for a living.
What's weird is she's a mage.
According to Dorian, that means she should be Altus.
She should be able to get a job bookkeeping or get sent to Hogwarts.
Even if she's not going to be part of House Slytherin with the other Purebloods like Dorian and Draco Malfoy.
Yeah, she's Hufflepuff but everything we know about Tevinter suggests being a mage should have been a massive step up for her family even in slavery.
No, Altus are descendants from the ancient dreamers, the most pure-blood and bred families of Tevinter. She's a Liberati with a chance to join the Circle of Magi due to her nature. A chance is not a guarantee.
this actually makes me curious. We know tevinter can sell other mages into slavery and mages can come from slaves, so what class would either person be?
There are slums in Tevinter. Don't you remember what Varania says - "You have no idea what we went through, what I've had to do since mother died"? Slavery does not eliminate poverty, if anything it makes it more glaring. However, no matter her contempt and accusations, Varania didn't choose to sell herself back to coveted slavery. Didn't you ask yourself once - why, if she'd be treated nicely, as Dorian describes? If she could rise as a slave, have a family, maybe save her mother from dying with providing for her? Did you wonder - why she didn't? Maybe because it's not as rose-tinted glasses Dorian saw it through?
That is an excellent observation.
On another note, did anyone else laugh when the Inquisitor asks Dorian: "Did you have slaves?" and he says: "No not personally, but my family did." Because my internal reaction was: "Ok...so...yes you did have slaves, is what you're saying?"
Furthermore, if she's anything like Fenris she's been a slave her whole life and doesn't even know how to read. I doubt she has many skills that are marketable in the Sporati job market so she knows no trade. she's also an elf which even in the Tevinter Circles are heavily discriminated against in Tevinter. So she's an old, can't read, been a slave her whole life, elf in Tevinter. Yeah her best bet unfortunately is to ****** herself out. At least Fenris can kill for a living.
Actually, I'm not sure her story is as tragic as that.
Given she's a mage, it's very likely she went to a Circle and WAS educated.
It's entirely possible to read her anger at not being allowed in the halls of power rather than being a prostitute selling herself on the streets for lyrium.
Then again, she willingly turned her brother to Denarius so I might be viewing her through a sociopathic lens.
"I needed to sell you so I could get a Magistar patron because being a Tevinter without one sucks."
this actually makes me curious. We know tevinter can sell other mages into slavery and mages can come from slaves, so what class would either person be?
If they develop their magic young they become Laetan and if they succeed in their studies and can rain fire with the best of them. If they develop magic late that's like trying to go to college with a third grade education, they'd be like 50 before they make anything out of themselves and most wouldn't even admit them.
this actually makes me curious. We know tevinter can sell other mages into slavery and mages can come from slaves, so what class would either person be?
Slaves are slaves, they're their own social class (if you can call it thus). Freed slaves are Liberati, no matter their magical abilities. Soporati are free mundanes, and Laetans are mages that came from Soporati families, aka families previously with no magic.
Guest_Raga_*
I think the distinction is basically that the Imperium's slavery appears to *mostly* be the kind of slavery practiced widely in antiquity and not what modern people think of slavery (human trafficking and such). People tend to leap on Fenris' experience because it's very in line with what a modern person expects slavery to be like. A professor of mine in undergrad quoted some famous historian of slavery as saying "A history of slavery everywhere is a history of slavery nowhere." Meaning the individual institutions and circumstances of slaves and slavery differ radically dependent on time, location, culture, and a million other factors. Slavery only becomes expressly and always evil when you adopt a modern moral standard based on inalienable natural rights, and Thedas just doesn't have any moral system like this that I know of.
In short, I think both Dorian and Fenris' explanations of slavery are accurate *somewhere* but neither is accurate *everywhere.* As Thedas has a much more virtues/sins (Andrastian) or "balance" (dwarves, Dalish) way of looking at things, I think it makes more sense from an in-universe perspective to judge slavery in a situational sense. A magister who uses slaves to fuel blood magic rituals could rightly be called evil, while a magister who fairly treats indentured debtors less so. The only in-universe all out damnation of slavery I can think of that makes sense is a religious one - that slavery is mostly about keeping mages (and specifically blood mages) in power in Tevinter and "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him."
That is an excellent observation.
On another note, did anyone else laugh when the Inquisitor asks Dorian: "Did you have slaves?" and he says: "No not personally, but my family did." Because my internal reaction was: "Ok...so...yes you did have slaves, is what you're saying?"
It reminded me of True Blood and Bill Compton.
"No, I didn't. My family did, though."
Which makes sense because slaves are the ownership of the House rather than the individual.
People are asking "Did you involve yourself in the slave trade?"
While he's hearing, "Did you own the Ferrari in your garage?"
Or maybe Verania had to sell herself in other ways that don't include slavery just to get into the good graces of a circle or a magister like Denarius.
It's being overlooked that Dorian himself concedes that neither you or he can make that kind of snap judgement without having been in that position.
Or maybe Verania had to sell herself in other ways that don't include slavery just to get into the good graces of a circle or a magister like Denarius.
Dorian and Fenris both agree Tevinter mage society is like the Drow.
Everyone going for knives in their back.
As a slave of Denarius, Verania was protected property.
As a Liberati mage, she's everyone's target.
Actually, I'm not sure her story is as tragic as that.
Given she's a mage, it's very likely she went to a Circle and WAS educated.
It's entirely possible to read her anger at not being allowed in the halls of power rather than being a prostitute selling herself on the streets for lyrium.
Then again, she willingly turned her brother to Denarius so I might be viewing her through a sociopathic lens.
"I needed to sell you so I could get a Magistar patron because being a Tevinter without one sucks."
Because she saw it easier to climb social ladder by selling her brother, than earn it herself.
Dorian and Fenris both agree Tevinter mage society is like the Drow.
Everyone going for knives in their back.As a slave of Denarius, Verania was protected property.
As a Liberati mage, she's everyone's target.
True, but there's anther possibilty as well. She may have been forced into work that other lower class mages do, and she felt better off as a slave than as a free woman because the grass wasn't greener, and in order to raise her status she had to become the apprentice to a magister.
Because she saw it easier to climb social ladder by selling her brother, than earn it herself.
Tevinter, based on what Dorian and Fenris both say, seem to try and keep people from climbing the social ladder on their own merits, just like every other nation in Thedas at present. Orlais, in order to raise the Du Paragetts up for Josephine, you have to get a huge string of favors. In Ferelden, you have to appeal to the Landsmeet or earn the favor of the crowned head. In Teviner, you have to be a magister's apprentice of descended from one of the ancient dreamers.
Tevinter, based on what Dorian and Fenris both say, seem to try and keep people from climbing the social ladder on their own merits, just like every other nation in Thedas at present. Orlais, in order to raise the Du Paragetts up for Josephine, you have to get a huge string of favors. In Ferelden, you have to appeal to the Landsmeet or earn the favor of the crowned head. In Teviner, you have to be a magister's apprentice of descended from one of the ancient dreamers.
So? What stopped her from trying to become a magister's apprentice without selling her own brother? Or was Danarius the only magister in Tevinter?
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