162 réponses à ce sujet

[InstantNoodlez]

The problem is not just Tevinter. I think we can all agree that slavery is a horrific institution.

 

The problem is the rest of Thedas. How much self-determination, sense of self and knowledge and one's rights, how much rights, do the average working poor of Thedas have? Are they simply a small step above slavery? There are societies that rely on a lowest of low social class to thrive. Some force these people into slavery. Others simply pass laws and regulations to keep them poor and desperate for survival.

 

Remember the chain suicides from Foxconn? All those people making iPhones and other electronics? http://www.cbsnews.c...xconn-suicides/

Ironically, the company's suicide rate is lower than many other factories in China, and the workers already have comparative higher pay and benefits. They are not slaves. Theoretically they can quit any time. But the social economic climate was just as effective a shackle and leash.

[Willowhugger]

So? What stopped her from trying to become a magister's apprentice without selling her own brother? Or was Danarius the only magister in Tevinter?

 

To her credit:

 

1. She's a Liberati, which is a separate social class just above dirt.
2. She's an Elf.
3. She's got no implied talents, skills, references, friends, or money.

 

The thing is, there's no reason she HAD to be an apprentice to someone like Danarius. The only reason she needed to be was because of the desire to be powerful and rich.

[Willowhugger]

The problem is not just Tevinter. I think we can all agree that slavery is a horrific institution.

 

The problem is the rest of Thedas. How much self-determination, sense of self and knowledge and one's rights, how much rights, do the average working poor of Thedas have? Are they simply a small step above slavery? There are societies that rely on a lowest of low social class to thrive. Some force these people into slavery. Others simply pass laws and regulations to keep them poor and desperate for survival.

 

Remember the chain suicides from Foxconn? All those people making iPhones and other electronics? http://www.cbsnews.c...xconn-suicides/

Ironically, the company's suicide rate is lower than many other factories in China, and the workers already have comparative higher pay and benefits. They are not slaves. Theoretically they can quit any time. But the social economic climate was just effect a shackle and leash.

 

I think we can let history judge for us.

The average Medieval Peasant and Freeman looked down on Serfs.

And Serfs still looked down on Slaves.

[PsyQUEpedia]

My grandparent's grandparents were slaves from what I hear there was no justification it was terrible. None of those elves in the alienage wanted to be slaves they much prefered to stay in the ghetto. Dorian reminds me of somebody from the Confederate South in US history. Google the political cartoons and speeches they used to justify slavery. It sounds similar to Dorian. "It's not that bad, it better than freedom and poverty( assuming they would be poor in Africa), we give them class (it's equivalents), it's a right, masters aren't usually cruel, etc.... Fenris has lived that life and I'm sure knows other slaves that can verify their inhumane experiences, Dorian if I remember owns slaves. Fenris' sister likely got her freedom and can't do anything with it due to racial and class barriers against elves in Tevinter.

[Willowhugger]

My grandparent's grandparents were slaves from what I hear there was no justification it was terrible. None of those elves in the alienage wanted to be slaves they much prefered to stay in the ghetto. Dorian reminds me of somebody from the Confederate South in US history. Google the political cartoons and speeches they used to justify slavery. It sounds similar to Dorian. "It's not that bad, it better than freedom and poverty( assuming they would be poor in Africa), we give them class (it's equivalents), it's a right, masters aren't usually cruel, etc.... Fenris has lived that life and I'm sure knows other slaves that can verify their inhumane experiences, Dorian if I remember owns slaves. Fenris' sister likely got her freedom and can't do anything with it due to racial and class barriers against elves in Tevinter.

 

David Gaider kind of damns her justification, actually, that discrimination against elves is actually fairly light in Tevinter as compared to Southern

Thedas. Another Roman thing is while most slaves are elves, there's nothing racial about the slavery.

 

You can also rise up to the Magisterium as an elf.

Albeit, not the upper house.

Race isn't as important in Tevinter as it is in the South. Just like same-sex relationships aren't a big deal in the South but are one up North.

[InstantNoodlez]

I think we can let history judge for us.

The average Medieval Peasant and Freeman looked down on Serfs.

And Serfs still looked down on Slaves.

Because slaves took the niche of the lowest class.

When the average peasant is the lowest class, and have no one to look down on, however...

[renfrees]

To her credit:

 

1. She's a Liberati, which is a separate social class just above dirt.
2. She's an Elf.
3. She's got no implied talents, skills, references, friends, or money.

 

The thing is, there's no reason she HAD to be an apprentice to someone like Danarius. The only reason she needed to be was because of the desire to be powerful and rich.

And that justifies her - how? As I said previously, why didn't she sell herself instead of attempting to climb at the expense of her brother?

[InstantNoodlez]

And that justifies her - how? As I said previously, why didn't she sell herself instead of attempting to climb at the expense of her brother?

Faster. Also her brother is more valuable. She was raised in a cut-throat society after all.

 

(It is like asking why some people sleep with their bosses for raises instead of working harder.)

[Willowhugger]

And that justifies her - how? As I said previously, why didn't she sell herself instead of attempting to climb at the expense of her brother?

 

You look for disagreement where there is none.

I'm just saying that if she was planning to become a Magistar's apprentice, she needed something huge.

Her ambition is what made her evil.

Not the wealth of options she had.

[InstantNoodlez]

My grandparent's grandparents were slaves from what I hear there was no justification it was terrible. None of those elves in the alienage wanted to be slaves they much prefered to stay in the ghetto. Dorian reminds me of somebody from the Confederate South in US history. Google the political cartoons and speeches they used to justify slavery. It sounds similar to Dorian. "It's not that bad, it better than freedom and poverty( assuming they would be poor in Africa), we give them class (it's equivalents), it's a right, masters aren't usually cruel, etc.... Fenris has lived that life and I'm sure knows other slaves that can verify their inhumane experiences, Dorian if I remember owns slaves. Fenris' sister likely got her freedom and can't do anything with it due to racial and class barriers against elves in Tevinter.

 

Looking back we wonder how they bought their own lies when everything can simply be countered by "Why don't you sigh long term contracts and pay them".

[vertigomez]

This thread feels like that conversation with Leliana in DAO.

"They are serfs! There is no slavery in Orlais!"

[InstantNoodlez]

This thread feels like that conversation with Leliana in DAO.

"They are serfs! There is no slavery in Orlais!"

I think this is my entire issue with Thedas.

 

They all casually treat their lower class like ****. I hope next game we can play at least for half a game as someone from the lowest class, with companions with social status like Fenris and Sera and maybe even Harding would do, and see Thedas when we are not a special conscript in the special zombie fighting forces, the down on his luck scion of a noble family, or the herald of Jesus.

 

Basically Hawke but with even less money and no power. With lame spells and abilities that will eventually grow better, fighting initially against enemies of equally lame spells and abilities. Like, set pants on fire. Or a brick to the face. Or dig through garbage for leftovers for +hp, etc.

[taranoire]

You look for disagreement where there is none.

I'm just saying that if she was planning to become a Magistar's apprentice, she needed something huge.

Her ambition is what made her evil.

Not the wealth of options she had.

 

I don't think Varania was evil, just desperate and with nothing to lose, everything to gain. She was probably resentful of the fact that her brother, by all appearances, rose up in Tevinter society and quite literally became someone else. She thought of him as having escaped the poverty she and her mother had to endure. Obviously, she was biased and probably had little to no idea what he actually went through, but from her perspective I'd be a little angry too.

 

I'm sure Danarius did his part in convincing her he wouldn't hurt Fenris, either--that she would be doing it for his own good.    

[Ryzaki]

This thread feels like that conversation with Leliana in DAO.

"They are serfs! There is no slavery in Orlais!"

 

 

Thanks for reminding me of that.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Actually, I'm not sure her story is as tragic as that.

 

Given she's a mage, it's very likely she went to a Circle and WAS educated.

 

It's entirely possible to read her anger at not being allowed in the halls of power rather than being a prostitute selling herself on the streets for lyrium.

 

Then again, she willingly turned her brother to Denarius so I might be viewing her through a sociopathic lens.

 

"I needed to sell you so I could get a Magistar patron because being a Tevinter without one sucks."

Fenris won their freedom via gladiator combat tournament. He and her would have to be adults at that age as only a full grown adult could win such a tournament, thus they'd be uneducated slave adults at the time they were set free. She's never been to the Circle (slaves aren't admitted into a Circle and after they were set free is most unlikely she attended since...) and I doubt she would be admitted at her age. Plus she mentions a mother didn't she? "I had no choice" and "you have no idea what we went through. What I had to do since mother died." I doubt she'd have the time dedicated to study magic even if she was admitted to a tevinter circle which probably required tuition and if she had to take care of the family then it's even more improbable now that they aren't provided for as slaves. Her dialogue makes it clear that she was in a desperate situation,

[Hellion Rex]

To her credit:

 

1. She's a Liberati, which is a separate social class just above dirt.
2. She's an Elf.
3. She's got no implied talents, skills, references, friends, or money.

 

The thing is, there's no reason she HAD to be an apprentice to someone like Danarius. The only reason she needed to be was because of the desire to be powerful and rich.

False, she's Laetens. The minute she manifested, she jumped to Laetens.

[Hellion Rex]

Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad. 

 

One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.

In all honesty, I'm not surprised at how they differ. Fenris saw the absolute worst of Tevinter, so he's heavily biased. But so is Dorian, who came from the top echelons of power. But Dorian is at least willing to admit that he never thought of slavery as an issue until he came South. And why should we necessarily expect him to have a problem with it? He grew up around it, it's all he really knows. He comes from a place where to have slaves is the norm, and to not own slaves would be an extreme oddity.

[taranoire]

False, she's Laetens. The minute she manifested, she jumped to Laetens.

.....what? 

[Hellion Rex]

.....what? 

Ok, brief rundown of Tevinter classes

 

-Altus are the top class, those who can trace their magical line back to the ancient Dreamers of Tevinter

 

-Laetens are families that were previously lower until they have a child that manifests magic. Fenris's sister is in this class. Previously, she would have been a part of no class, as a slave, but manifesting and becoming an apprentice of Danarius automatically grants her entry to this class.

 

-Non mage nobles and peasants are called Soporati.

 

-Liberati are freed slaves who have very, very limited rights.

 

To read more, check out this:

http://dragonage.wik...mperium#Culture

[taranoire]

Ok, brief rundown of Tevinter classes

 

-Altus are the top class, those who can trace their magical line back to the ancient Dreamers of Tevinter

 

-Laetens are families that were previously lower until they have a child that manifests magic. Fenris's sister is in this class. Previously, she would have been a part of no class, as a slave, but manifesting automatically grants her entry to this class.

 

-Non mage nobles and peasants are called Soporati.

 

-Liberati are freed slaves who have very, very limited rights.

 

Ahhh. It would make sense for her to be Laetan at that point, I suppose.

 

Wish we could get dev confirmation on all of this speculation tbh.

[dragonflight288]

So? What stopped her from trying to become a magister's apprentice without selling her own brother? Or was Danarius the only magister in Tevinter?

 

Probably the only Magister she could get close to because he used to be her master. 

[Hellion Rex]

Ahhh. It would make sense for her to be Laetan at that point, I suppose.

 

Wish we could get dev confirmation on all of this speculation tbh.

Wait, what speculation are you referring to?

[Mr.House]

Ahhh. It would make sense for her to be Laetan at that point, I suppose.

 

Wish we could get dev confirmation on all of this speculation tbh.

What speculation?

[taranoire]

Wait, what speculation are you referring to?

 

Just all of the "probably"s and "maybe"s concerning Varania and Fenris/Leto, considering most of where this thread has gone is inferential. I dunno. I just find it interesting. *shrug*

 

I apologize, I'm running on low sleep in a different time zone than I'm used to.  

[renfrees]

False, she's Laetens. The minute she manifested, she jumped to Laetens.

According to the same Wiki you're wrong.

 

"However, when a Soporati family produces a mage child—this is greatly desired in Tevinter, unlike within the rest of Thedas—it allows them entrance into the Laetans class and thus a higher social standing."

 

She was never Soporati to become Laetan, but Liberati aka freed slave.