162 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

Basically, you have two unreliable narrators. Both are talking about their own personal experiences of the Imperium and are hardly giving you a fully unbiased account. This is something you always have to keep in mind when dealing with first person narratives. Fenris hates the Imperium and the horse it rode in on. Dorian despises a lot about it, but he also loves his homeland and his experiences with it, while bitter in some ways, are also a lot less antagonistic and come from an upper class experience including the teachings that come with it.

 

Fenris lived the slave experience. Dorian lived the high class existence. What can Dorian really tell you about living a slave's life? Similarly, what can Fenris really tell you about the Tevinter nobility? But each might be the more reliable source for their own experiences of that slice of Tevinter life.

 

Yes, Dorian's family might treat their slaves well, or at least the ones he knows about ... but he freely admits he never even thought about it much before.

 

In the end, I look at Tevinter slavery as similar to Roman slavery. In that case, it was very similar to both what you see from Fenris and what Dorian tells you. Roman slavery ran the gamut from highly regarded and well-treated, even wealthy, slaves who were professionals to the abused, mistreated used up and tossed out slaves at the very bottom of the pecking order. Those who had skills could and did sell themselves into slavery bargaining that they could eventually buy their manumissions and thus earn Roman citizenry for themselves and their families in perpetuity along with the patronage of the wealthy Roman who bought them. But realistically that class of Roman slave was in the minority compared to the common field and house slave who was poorly educated, low-skilled and often used and discarded as easily as any other type of cheap property.

[SomniariKess1124]

eh, to be fair Fenris kind of came from a biased point of view. i mean, he'd never seen anything outside of slave life, so you'd only be getting a view of tevinter life from one point of view. Plus Fenris just seemed intent on raining on everything good (in my opinion. again, biased point of view)

[Gervaise]

Neither side really contradicts the other.   They are certainly telling it from different viewpoints and in Fenris' case for much of the game he is minus part of his memory.   What we discover from his sister is that it is possible for a slave to "win" freedom for their family and even someone as bad as Denarius kept his word over that.   She declares that "Freedom was no boon", because evidently they had it much tougher out in the world away from the luxury of Denarius' estate.    She sold out her brother on the promise that Denarius would "make her a Magister", which I always claimed made her an idiot if she truly believed it, which Dorian confirms is true.  Only Altus become Magisters.    However, it is possible that he might have improved her position among the lower ranks of mages.

 

What we see with Hadriana and from Fenris' conversations with others is that a slave's life is easily expendable and that blood magic is used, even if only as a last resort, in Tevinter.   I am pretty sure Fenris said the same as Dorian, that in public it is officially outlawed but in private, behind closed doors it is commonplace.   This is also backed up by what Lamberts says in the novel Asunder.    Even Fenris admits that there are probably good mages in Tevinter but that every person has their breaking point where they will submit to temptation and resort to blood magic out of desperation.   Dorian's experience with his father shows how true this is.   Dorian's greatest fear is temptation with good reason.

 

Basically Dorian is a counter balance to the extreme views of Fenris, gives the alternative view of someone who has benefited from the system, without actually contradicting anything that Fenris believed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well avoiding that thread is rather old ,dorian don't contradicts anything fenris have said.Dorian pretty much confirms what fenris said about tevinter and well whole series, only difference is that dorian is rather naive in that he thinks he can fix tevinter and desperately tries find good things about it.

[renfrees]

eh, to be fair Fenris kind of came from a biased point of view. i mean, he'd never seen anything outside of slave life, so you'd only be getting a view of tevinter life from one point of view. Plus Fenris just seemed intent on raining on everything good (in my opinion. again, biased point of view)

And Dorian is obviously unbiased, having lived his whole life in privilege.

[The Baconer]

Only Altus become Magisters.  

 

That's actually not true. But for an emancipated elven mage it might as well be complete fantasy.

[In Exile]

That's actually not true. But for an emancipated elven mage it might as well be complete fantasy.

I imagine that anyone who is sufficiently ruthless and powerful in magic could lay claim to the title. It would just require such an incredible Magnificent Bastard that it is just a fantasy.

[Frybread76]

Without spoiling much, those who have played both games will know what I'm talking about. Dorian talks about the good and the bad of Tevinter where Fenris is bad bad bad bad. 

 

One of the things that really made me thought is the topic of slavery. Sure from distance we all call it evil despicable etc... and for good reason. However there are not any kind of slums in Tevinter. aka there are no people so poor they are destined to die from disease in a corner and no one will care. As a slave one of these people can rise up and even have a family. If they do good then can free themselves. Excellence is rewarded regardless of anything. I see that some of slaves can have very cruel masters but not all of them will suffer from this. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting it but I don't see how its any worse than having alienages and slums such as darktown.

 

I guess it depends on whether it's chattel slavery or a type of either forced labor or debt bondage.  In the first, slaves would be treated as property and have nearly no rights whatsoever.  In the second, people would have more rights than chattel slaves but would be forced to work.  In debt bondage, people would willingly become indentured servants or laborers to pay off a debt or make a living.  They'd have the most rights of any "slaves" but would still be at the mercy of their master.

[In Exile]

I guess it depends on whether it's chattel slavery or a type of either forced labor or debt bondage. In the first, slaves would be treated as property and have nearly no rights whatsoever. In the second, people would have more rights than chattel slaves but would be forced to work. In debt bondage, people would willingly become indentured servants or laborers to pay off a debt or make a living. They'd have the most rights of any "slaves" but would still be at the mercy of their master.

My question is how does this kind of system actually get regulated? Let's say Dorian's more utopian vision of people selling themselves into slavery is how things work. What happens what a master is abusive? Does a slave have standing to sue in Tevinter courts? Will the contract get nullified?

That's where his vision falls apart.

[Xilizhra]

Neither side really contradicts the other.   They are certainly telling it from different viewpoints and in Fenris' case for much of the game he is minus part of his memory.   What we discover from his sister is that it is possible for a slave to "win" freedom for their family and even someone as bad as Denarius kept his word over that.   She declares that "Freedom was no boon", because evidently they had it much tougher out in the world away from the luxury of Denarius' estate.    She sold out her brother on the promise that Denarius would "make her a Magister", which I always claimed made her an idiot if she truly believed it, which Dorian confirms is true.  Only Altus become Magisters.    However, it is possible that he might have improved her position among the lower ranks of mages.

 

What we see with Hadriana and from Fenris' conversations with others is that a slave's life is easily expendable and that blood magic is used, even if only as a last resort, in Tevinter.   I am pretty sure Fenris said the same as Dorian, that in public it is officially outlawed but in private, behind closed doors it is commonplace.   This is also backed up by what Lamberts says in the novel Asunder.    Even Fenris admits that there are probably good mages in Tevinter but that every person has their breaking point where they will submit to temptation and resort to blood magic out of desperation.   Dorian's experience with his father shows how true this is.   Dorian's greatest fear is temptation with good reason.

 

Basically Dorian is a counter balance to the extreme views of Fenris, gives the alternative view of someone who has benefited from the system, without actually contradicting anything that Fenris believed.

Actually, it's possible for a laetan to become a magister, and even an archon.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Actually, it's possible for a laetan to become a magister, and even an archon.

 

Conversely, is quite possible for mages to be slaves and hold no power whats so ever.

[Gervaise]

From what Dorian says, whilst in theory it might be possible for a non Altus to become a Magister, it practice it never happens.   All the top positions in society are occupied by Altus.    The Archon decides who can be elevated to the Magisterium and the noble families vie for his favour.    This is why Dorian says that non magical families live in hope that one of their number may exhibit magic so they can go up in life but that only makes them better than non-mages but on the bottom rung of mage society.   There also appears to be an element of inheritance where the Senate is concerned, since Dorian's entry says he will inherit the position currently held by his father.   For a non Altus to move up I would imagine they have to have sufficient magical ability, a ruthless streak and friends in high places, or be considered a good enough addition to the breeding programme to marry into one of the Altus families.    As with everything else, Tevinter claims the appearance of a meritocracy but in practice it is anything but.

[Xilizhra]

From what Dorian says, whilst in theory it might be possible for a non Altus to become a Magister, it practice it never happens.   All the top positions in society are occupied by Altus.    The Archon decides who can be elevated to the Magisterium and the noble families vie for his favour.    This is why Dorian says that non magical families live in hope that one of their number may exhibit magic so they can go up in life but that only makes them better than non-mages but on the bottom rung of mage society.   There also appears to be an element of inheritance where the Senate is concerned, since Dorian's entry says he will inherit the position currently held by his father.   For a non Altus to move up I would imagine they have to have sufficient magical ability, a ruthless streak and friends in high places, or be considered a good enough addition to the breeding programme to marry into one of the Altus families.    As with everything else, Tevinter claims the appearance of a meritocracy but in practice it is anything but.

No, it does happen. Something like a third of all archons have been Laetan, IIRC.

[Xilizhra]

I wouldn't say that Dorian contradicts it, he just brings a different perspective.

 

Of course the perspective of the rich, spoiled-rotten, slave-owning Magister's son is going to be different from the slave who had to wait on his Magister master. Dorian got every ease, luxury, and advantage that his society could offer, while Fenris (and other slaves like him) got every indignity and injustice his master could bestow on him since Tevinter slave-owners can legally do whatever they want to their slaves (beat, starve, experiment on, torture, rape, maim, kill) without anyone seeing anything wrong with it.

To be fair, Dorian's family also didn't hurt their own slaves, so it's probable Dorian literally didn't see anything that Fenris did.

 

 

However, if a slave has a cruel master who beats them, sexually abuses them, experiments on them, or wants to cut their throat (or cut the throat of their relative) to fuel blood magic, there's no way out. They can't just pack up and seek employment elsewhere even if they have the financial means to travel, as a city elf or human peasant could if they've had enough. Slaves have to stick with it, and there are slave-hunters to track them down if they try to leave. They have no rights, no choices; they get what their master gives them, and are expected to just live with it (or die by it).

 

So, there's that glaring downside.

Isn't that pretty much the same thing for the poorest people in non-Tevinter societies? The difference seems to be that between "legal" and "completely unenforced."

[Gervaise]

Dorian may not actually have seen what happens at the sort of parties that Denarius held; he's not high enough up to be invited.   However, he knows that blood magic occurs behind closed doors and he also knows it involves blood sacrifice.   So unless he thinks these mages are sacrificing free citizens, which likely would draw more attention than they would wish, the natural assumption would be they are using slaves, who nobody but their own master would miss and can easily replace.   

 

So much as I love Dorian, I think he is being a bit disingenuous or at best is in denial about a slave's lot in Tevinter.    It is noticeable that we aren't allowed to question him more vigorously on the subject of slaves being sacrificed or the sexual abuse of slaves.   It is said that it is considered okay to have gay relationships provided it is done out discretely and that it is actively encouraged with slaves.    Are we to assume that all slaves involved are willing partners?   

 

Of course rape isn't confined to Tevinter and in Origins it was said that Chevaliers are allowed to have any girl they wish as their right (although that hasn't been highlighted since).    Chevaliers are also trained by sending them out in the alienages to kill elves for sport, which you could argue is a different form of blood sacrifice.    So I suppose Dorian would still use the same argument about freedom versus slavery there.

 

Let's face it, it sucks being on the bottom rung of society whichever part of Thedas you are in or at least those parts with a nobility that thinks they can treat you as they wish as their right.   The more "civilised" a nation becomes, the worse life seems to be for the bottom end of it.

[myahele]

True, selling yourself into slavery means your family members will get money and live better.

 

What happens once you're a slave is a completely different matter.

 

In the end, I think there's a difference between contractual slavery of Tevinter citizens(Similar to that Asari planet in ME2) and non citizens

[renfrees]

To be fair, Dorian's family also didn't hurt their own slaves, so it's probable Dorian literally didn't see anything that Fenris did.

I have a question - what would happen if one of Dorian's family slaves decided to run away, got caught by slave-hunters and returned to his owner? Would he be gently reprimanded by Magister Halward, shamed in front of the household for betraying the trust of his kind master and asked to never do this again? Or more likely he'd be punished or sold to another master?

 

What Dorian tells is a fairytale based on assumption that ppl are willing to sell themselves into slavery. Perhaps some are, but what about massive human (elven) traffic from other countries? Were they also willing to become property in order to escape poverty? Somehow I doubt it.

[Carmen_Willow]

The clean and comfortable slave life is only as good as long as the master who offers it is alive, or is pleased with you. A slave can be sold at a whim, that lovely family broken apart, your body used as someone else sees fit, your life taken in a moment because you spilled the soup.

 

As harsh as the life of poverty is for the elves of Ferelden, give me that harsh and bitter freedom, every time. Give me the right to think my own thoughts, make my own decisions, choose my own path no matter how few are open to me. Give me the right to say "no" and to call no one "master."

 

Fenris didn't just hate slavery because he was misused, he hated it because Denarius stole even his ability to stand up for those who had given him hospitality and a home. His life as a slave had stolen his ability to reason and choose, and that is the worst thing of all. Slavery destroys your individuality, your ability to act in what you perceive to be your best interest, to be a human being (or elf). That's why he hated slavery. That his sister preferred it isn't his fault, and at least she got to choose to go back. No one was allowing Fenris to leave, were they?

[JadeDragon]

Human Noble Mage point of view vs Elf Slave Warrior PoV. Its going to contradict because they literally stand on opposite ends of there society. Dorian being part of the majority race, having the 2nd highest noble title(3rd if you count Archon) and being a mage in a mage run society and Fenris being the lowest race in that country(2nd if you count qunari), a non mage non human slave is about as low as titles get in that country. If anything it would come off as strange if they agreed

[dragonflight288]

Neither side really contradicts the other.   They are certainly telling it from different viewpoints and in Fenris' case for much of the game he is minus part of his memory.   What we discover from his sister is that it is possible for a slave to "win" freedom for their family and even someone as bad as Denarius kept his word over that.   She declares that "Freedom was no boon", because evidently they had it much tougher out in the world away from the luxury of Denarius' estate.    She sold out her brother on the promise that Denarius would "make her a Magister", which I always claimed made her an idiot if she truly believed it, which Dorian confirms is true.  Only Altus become Magisters.    However, it is possible that he might have improved her position among the lower ranks of mages.

 

What we see with Hadriana and from Fenris' conversations with others is that a slave's life is easily expendable and that blood magic is used, even if only as a last resort, in Tevinter.   I am pretty sure Fenris said the same as Dorian, that in public it is officially outlawed but in private, behind closed doors it is commonplace.   This is also backed up by what Lamberts says in the novel Asunder.    Even Fenris admits that there are probably good mages in Tevinter but that every person has their breaking point where they will submit to temptation and resort to blood magic out of desperation.   Dorian's experience with his father shows how true this is.   Dorian's greatest fear is temptation with good reason.

 

Basically Dorian is a counter balance to the extreme views of Fenris, gives the alternative view of someone who has benefited from the system, without actually contradicting anything that Fenris believed.

 

Slight correction.

 

Denarius doesn't promise Fenris' sister that she would become a magister. He promises to make her his apprentice, and he IS a magister. 

[renfrees]

Also, do you think Dorian's father hasn't tested that blood ritual before trying to subject his precious scion to it? If not, who were his test subjects? "Treated them well," uh-huh - so long as they're compliant or until the need arises.

[Sifr]

 

In the end, I think there's a difference between contractual slavery of Tevinter citizens(Similar to that Asari planet in ME2) and non citizens

 

From what Krem tells us, it does seems that those who sign themselves into contractual slavery like his father are better protected and more taken care of than non-citizen, privately-owned slaves, which would imply that some kind of regulation might exist in place to prevent any abuses?

 

After all, we see that reneging on a contract in Antiva and Orlais is seen as uncivilised to the point of anathema amongst the nobility, so it's likely that Tevinter too has similar penalties in place to prevent Magisters from going around killing these temporary wards of the state?

 

What I want to know is the rules and distinctions that the rest of Thedas have about this kind of thing, since from DA2, it's (apparently) legal for someone in Kirkwall to sell themselves into indentured servitude, meaning that Hawke and their siblings were at one point no different from Krem's father?

[TheKomandorShepard]

What I want to know is the rules and distinctions that the rest of Thedas have about this kind of thing, since from DA2, it's (apparently) legal for someone in Kirkwall to sell themselves into indentured servitude, meaning that Hawke and their siblings were at one point no different from Krem's father?

You are talking about those 2 groups that hawke can make deal with? I wouldn't use word legal considering that those 2 groups were shady , not mention one of them are outright criminals.