351 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

Yea, I'm being hyperbolic. I more meant that they made a radical cultural shift from a sedentary civilization to hunter-gatherers as a result of their nation-state being dissolved by enemies. As far as I know, there's no precedent for this in history. It seems like their should be, but heck if I can think of one.

They don't have to be a paper copy of a culture to be based on it and to be compared to it, or them since the dalish are similiar to many cultures

[Colonelkillabee]

Yea, I'm being hyperbolic.  I more meant that they made a radical cultural shift from a sedentary civilization to hunter-gatherers as a result of their nation-state being dissolved by enemies.  As far as I know, there's no precedent for this in history.  It seems like their should be, but heck if I can think of one.  The city elves pretty closely fit the parallels of Jews in Medieval Europe.  The Dalish not so much.  

That's because no one in our world's stupid enough to take up something really meant as a temporary solution to modern cultures and make it permanent, lol.

[Chari]

Broadly speaking, sure, but even the Dalish themselves maintain firmly they aren't like city elves.

They aren't in terms of culture. They are in terns of race. They are Dragon Age quarians. And yes, they still have a lot in common withjews, roma, nenets, native americans etc. That much is obvious
It's like two siblings living in different cities. One is in abusive relationship, another lives alone in a hut

[Colonelkillabee]

When you put it that way, at least the city elves can have a cheeseburger and watch cable tv

 

LOL

[StrangeStrategy]

She would always like to say "Why change the past when you could own this day?"

 

That's the only wise thing Sera says though. But its true: The Dalish should stop focusing solely on reclaiming lost glory they don't understand and instead work towards fitting into the world as it is today. Face reality. Briala knows this, and has done more to help elves than all the Dalish combined.

What to the Dalish do, besides reclaim old knowledge and hoard it? They're still living like pre-Neolithic tribes, and even if its a nice simple life it isn't the right path to the glory and respect they seem to want. And since each tribe is isolated, they're never united. They'd feud like the humans do once they got together (Like they did in the past) so maybe this is as good as it gets for the Dalish.

[Colonelkillabee]

Na sera also says "most people are stupid."

Ain't it the truth.

And now that you mention it, the dalish are a lot like the brotherhood of steel, minus the capability, but with all the dickery and sinking ship mentality.

That's exactly why I despise them as they are.

[Chari]

My comparison was situational anyway - neither race nor culture based. Though culture is certainly relevant because it's the reason the city elves and Dalish are in different situations.

My point is that comparing the Dalish to any given oppressed group trying to hold onto their culture isn't necessarily accurate. The issue isn't that the Dalish are attempting to hold onto their culture. It's the *way* they are attempting to hold onto it. Though as I said before, I mostly think "Dalish" is a made-up culture anyway composed of a few scarcely understood fragments. Those fragments could be interpreted in any number of ways and it's specifically the way the Dalish have chosen to interpret it that's contributing to the problem.

Or rather it's the fact that they have turned "scrounging for remnants" into a culture in and of itself. It's a culture based on scavenging the bones of a long dead empire.

It is accurate enough. Nitpicking to justify their suffering is pointless though
Every culture is made up. Every culture is artificial for every culture is art created by many people, by their traditions, actions, ideas, mistakes and heroic acts. Saying that a culture isn't real or that parts of it are wrong so it is wrong is nonsense
People will always misinterpret some elements of the past. That is natural, inevitable, okay. You won't say to native americans or african folk that their culture is wrong just because they may interpret some elements of the pat the wrong way, will you? Of course no, it is a shitty thing to do. Same with the dalish. They get some things right, some things wrong just like everybody else

[Aetheria]

I'm pretty sure the DA writers would feel like they'd failed if it was possible to point to the Dalish and say "those guys are obviously good and awesome" or "those guys are 100% mean and nasty" with no argument at all. Just like the Chantry, they're a group who do a bunch of good things and a bunch of crappy things, and whose motivations are hard to judge because we don't yet know how much truth is behind them (is the Maker real? Was ancient elven culture THAT great?).

 

You can actually see this going on right from the very first time they're introduced in Origins. Yeah, while you're walking around the camp, the Warden's clan look like a peaceful lot who live proud and free in their aravels, escaping human oppression left and right. And that's true as far as it goes. But also consider that the very first scene involves the Warden and his best friend threatening a bunch of unarmed pathetic-looking humans, and the dialogue makes clear that from their point of view just killing all these guys for wandering too close is a legitimate option.

 

And it's got to be this way for gameplay purposes, because the whole point is that YOU get to choose what parts of their culture your protagonist identifies with. You get the chance to be either a stuck-up violent shem-hating jerk, or a peaceful history-loving sort who cares about ending oppression. Or something in between.

[Chari]

I never said it wasn't a culture because it was made-up. My point was that they have the power to develop theirs in just about any way they wish specifically because of the made-upness of culture, and they've chosen negative aspects to focus on.

Negative? I personally see nothing really negative about it. It's really subjective to be frank

[Chari]

That goes without saying. Discussing that is the point of this thread. Given a lot of people's active distaste for the Dalish, it's at least not an opinion I'm alone in sharing. Though on a side note, I will say that I do think it's possible for some aspects of a given culture to be fundamentally wrong in an ethical sense and my protests with the Dalish are ethical ones. My relativism only goes so far.

And I am not alone in my desire to protect the dalish from an unfair treatment by the fandom and even devs
Not ethical but subjective. There is nothing morally right about insulting any culture just because it doesn't have a fully correct knowledge of its past or acts bitter about being mistreated. By that logic, no culture ever deserves to exist

[Chari]

Their ethical hiccup is inculcating bigotry as I explained in an earlier post. I hope most people regard the unethical nature of bigotry as a moral axiom.

Every race is bigoted on way or another. Qunari consider all other races but imekari in need of reeducation. Humans treat elves like dirt and both qunari and dwarves like heathens who they have to tolerate because they can fight back. Dwarves consider all other races weirdos with their creepy sky, magic and long limbs. Heck one of the reasons there are few halfdwarves is because they consider other races inferiors or sth. Granted I read that during DAO, might have been retconned like everything else
Every race consider itself to be more right, better, more justified. That's how psyche works
If you want to blame the dalish for racism, sure, do it. But remember that every race in Thedas is racist and religiously zealous in its own way. At least te dalish aren't conquering anyone

[Char]

I I feel a certain amount of sympathy for the Dalish. They are acutely aware that they have fallen from a great height, and are desperately trying to hold on to what little remains of their history and culture. It's caused them to become generally insular and in some cases very bitter, and it's a tragic irony that their downfall was in fact their own doing, and that they are unaware of it. They are a victim of their own past, and because they don't know it, they can't progress. I don't nevessarily find them likeable, but I do find them understandable, and I'm interested to see if/how Bioware handles their redemption.

[Colonelkillabee]

And I am not alone in my desire to protect the dalish from an unfair treatment by the fandom and even devs

Unfair treatment from the devs? How they decide to take their story's really none of your business. I mean, you can comment, like and dislike like everyone, but calling it unfair's rather entitled...

 

As for from the fandom, I suppose some of the opinions expressed here are unfair, but protecting them from it? Lol, you're not going to change anyone's opinion so the only thing you're really protecting is the thread from an adult discussion.

[raging_monkey]

Unfair treatment from the devs? How they decide to take their story's really none of your business. I mean, you can comment, like and dislike like everyone, but calling it unfair's rather entitled...
 
As for from the fandom, I suppose some of the opinions expressed here are unfair, but protecting them from it? Lol, you're not going to change anyone's opinion so the only thing you're really protecting is the thread from an adult discussion.

the bsn has adult discussions... i thought most were just bashing x fandom lol

[Colonelkillabee]

the bsn has adult discussions... i thought most were just bashing x fandom lol

Lol well that's universal on game forums It's got all the makings of a political discussion, and even in adult conversations like that, people act like children. So the difference between adult and childish ones?

 

I'll get back to you on that one.

[raging_monkey]

Lol well that's universal on game forums It's got all the makings of a political discussion, and even in adult conversations like that, people act like children. So the difference between adult and childish ones?
 
I'll get back to you on that one.

please do lol

[Chari]

Unfair treatment from the devs? How they decide to take their story's really none of your business. I mean, you can comment, like and dislike like everyone, but calling it unfair's rather entitled...

As for from the fandom, I suppose some of the opinions expressed here are unfair, but protecting them from it? Lol, you're not going to change anyone's opinion so the only thing you're really protecting is the thread from an adult discussion.

If I see an author treat their character like butt monkeys I will call it unfair because it is unfair. If I see sexist, racist etc implications I'll also note that. Like it or not. An author is no saint who can not be critisized

...said a person who finds genocide of native oppressed dwellers of some land jokes funny... sure, an "adult" discussion it would be

[Battlebloodmage]

Same opinion as Sera. I laugh HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, stupid Dalish who thinks they're better than humans and dislike all humans on presence turn out to be putting slave brands on their face. 

[Chari]

Same opinion as Sera. I laugh HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, stupid Dalish who thinks they're better than humans and dislike all humans on presence turn out to be putting slave brands on their face.

See, Colonel? That's kind of an "adult" discussion you'd have

[Colonelkillabee]

If I see an author treat their character like butt monkeys I will call it unfair because it is unfair. If I see sexist, racist etc implications I'll also note that. Like it or not. An author is no saint who can not be critisized

...said a person who finds genocide of native oppressed dwellers of some land jokes funny... sure, an "adult" discussion it would be

Lol first, you can't be "unfair" to your own characters. It's yours. That's like me being unfair to the crust because I cut it off of my pb and j...

 

Second, racism and sexism don't need to be pointed out, we'll see them. They tend to show up in writing because they're real world things and keeping them out does no one any justice. Dealing with them instead of censoring, that's the way to go.

 

Third, part of having an adult conversation is also not being a stick in the mud sensitive snowflake ready to melt at the first thing that rustles your jimmies. You didn't like the joke, I get it. Cry me a river. I may slip into childish offcolored silliness once in a while, but at least when I'm childish, it's lighthearted and not with a stick up my ass.