184 réponses à ce sujet

[Catilina]

Just to be clear... Here most people talk about forgiveness. But it is not the case to my mind. No forgiveness, rather clemency we are talking about here. The Inquisitor is not for forgive. S/he simply can not do this, because Blackwall was not committed against him/her what he did. The inquisitor only can exercise clemency, not absolution. 

[mgagne]

Just to be clear... Here most people talk about forgiveness. But it is not the case to my mind. No forgiveness, rather clemency we are talking about here. The Inquisitor is not for forgive. S/he simply can not do this, because Blackwall was not committed against him/her what he did. The inquisitor only can exercise clemency, not absolution. 

 

 

Yes, 'clementia', like Caesar who was renowned for his extensive use and display of it during the civil war.  Blackwall is useful and my inquisitor(s) can usually see the changes in him over time - and the genuine desire to atone.

[KotorEffect3]

I either pardon him (if I exiled the wardens)  or give him to the wardens, either way I have him back in party.  Best tank in the party.

[Melyanna]

Just to be clear... Here most people talk about forgiveness. But it is not the case to my mind. No forgiveness, rather clemency we are talking about here. The Inquisitor is not for forgive. S/he simply can not do this, because Blackwall was not committed against him/her what he did. The inquisitor only can exercise clemency, not absolution. 

 

I think this is an interestig point, and I agree with you, even though if he is the Inquisitor's LI or is a friend, he kind of lied by omission.
So I'd say the Inquisitor can pardon him / exercise clemency for his past crimes, but can also forgive him for not being honest. Or any combination of the two.

[GoldenGail3]

I either pardon him (if I exiled the wardens)  or give him to the wardens, either way I have him back in party.  Best tank in the party.

I do that too, because I'm not the mood to anything else... Really... 

[Catilina]

I think this is an interestig point, and I agree with you, even though if he is the Inquisitor's LI or is a friend, he kind of lied by omission.
So I'd say the Inquisitor can pardon him / exercise clemency for his past crimes, but can also forgive him for not being honest. Or any combination of the two.

 

A lie is a difficult question. It can became a part of you that you do not know what the truth is. Blackwall has built up his new life on this lie. To do this, he wanted to keep. In this regard, difficult to say whether he lied or not. His  past Blackwall could not really speak for the first time, later it is already hard enough ... It's not an excuse, just another point of view.  My characters was on good terms with Blackwall (unfortunatelly not romancable for them), And I saw that he was influenced by the Inquisitor, and I also saw that he regretted his past. I think otherwise pardonable this lie, but may be difficult. The trust is damaged in any case.

 

(Maybe I'm too forgiving? Also in IRL I try to understand every little motive and to analize thats, and I'm hot-tempered, but not resentful.)

 

On the other hand: the private life do not mix work! It may be angry with him as a lover as friend, and end the relationship with him, but the resentment is not a reason to leave him in the prison, if you believe, that he regretted, and will continue to be useful.

[duckley]

A crime of commission and one of omission. Cant forgive Blackwall. He murdered children. He can redeem himself and do all his good works in prison as he accepts responsibility for his crimes.

[Phoe77]

I pardon him every time.  I believe that he is truly a good man and that he is committed to making the world a better place, and I'm reluctant to send such a man to the gallows.  While justice may demand that he be punished for his past actions, I think that it would be wasteful to execute him in the name of principle.  Allowing him to live to continue his efforts to atone will certainly lead to more good than allowing him to be hanged would.  

 

I also believe that he would have been unable to be punished for the crime if everything had gone like it was supposed to and he had completed his Joining.  He may not officially be a Warden, but my Inquisitors tend to see that as hair splitting when it comes to issues of immunity.

 

I also may be biased because of how very fond of him I am, however.

[fhs33721]

he killed an innocent woman and her children

Actually he didn't. His men did. He just gave the orders to do it, which is just as bad. But then again he was just following orders from some noble who again was most likely just following orders from Grand Duke Gaspard. Plus he didn't know that children were involved when he was first hired.

 

Anyways I usually pardon him. He might have been a complete scumbag in his past be he became a genuinely heroic and morally upright person since then. And quite frankly Thedas doesn't seem to have enough of those to waste even a single one.

[Idun]

Not there yet but I know the spoilers. I will definitely spare him. 

 

He might have been a ruthless motherfucker in the past but he had definitely changed for the better, and him showing up in the last minute to dramatically reveal his identity reminded me of Jean Valjean. His crimes were a lot more serious, but he genuinely regrets them and he is no longer a coward. He deserves a chance to redeem himself. Let him become a true Warden.

 

And hey, Sten had also killed a bunch of innocents and we still recruited and befriended him. So did Fenris, although under Danarius' influence. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I leave him in jail unless I'm playing his LI (only did that once.) He ordered an entire household murdered, by loyal soldiers, for nothing more than money. That is unforgivable, totally greed motivated and 100% self serving. I see him as using the Inquisition just as he used the Wardens. He waited to admit his crimes because he knew the Inquisition could free and pardon him. He's just using it to his benefit. If I do play his LI, he still has to actually join the Wardens, he might not survive that, and certainly won't be free, though it will ultimately be the blight that imprisons his mind, still, it's fitting.

[In Exile]

Just to be clear... Here most people talk about forgiveness. But it is not the case to my mind. No forgiveness, rather clemency we are talking about here. The Inquisitor is not for forgive. S/he simply can not do this, because Blackwall was not committed against him/her what he did. The inquisitor only can exercise clemency, not absolution. 

 

The thing is, Blackwall's value only really exists in the contrivance of gameplay - he's a party member. But really, a particularly good solider with no lands, title or other soldiers to his name is pretty replaceable, even if skilled. Not quite the real reason for clemency on political grounds.

[Patricia08]

Actually he didn't. His men did. He just gave the orders to do it, which is just as bad. But then again he was just following orders from some noble who again was most likely just following orders from Grand Duke Gaspard. Plus he didn't know that children were involved when he was first hired.

 

Anyways I usually pardon him. He might have been a complete scumbag in his past be he became a genuinely heroic and morally upright person since then. And quite frankly Thedas doesn't seem to have enough of those to waste even a single one.

 

Yes i know but to me that's just the same as he killed them and then hide ( as a coward ) and lie about it all those years no let him rot in prison and be hanged from the gallows. And maybe that is true that he was just following orders but those orders did not include killing an innocent woman and her children. 

 

That's fine by me if you pardon him that's your choice but let me ask you a question what if she was your sister or your wife and her or your children would you still pardon him ? 

[straykat]

Left him.. but I might make him take the joining if I ever get around to it.

[fhs33721]

That's fine by me if you pardon him that's your choice but let me ask you a question what if she was your sister or your wife and her or your children would you still pardon him ? 

Honestly? I can't say. I'd like to believe that yes, I would still pardon him in that case, after seeing that he genuinely changed for the better.

But then again one never knows how actually being in such a situation might change ones outlook.

[Nixou]

The thing is, Blackwall's value only really exists in the contrivance of gameplay - he's a party member. But really, a particularly good solider with no lands, title or other soldiers to his name is pretty replaceable, even if skilled. Not quite the real reason for clemency on political grounds.

 

 

Well, as I said several times, on legal grounds, Rainier was conscripted by Gordon Blackwall. So he is a Grey Warden and never needed to pretend he was someone else, even though he, himself, didn't realize it. Which means that he already received an amnesty.

The way I see it, since the revelation comes after Adamant, Rainier's fate depends first and foremost on the Grey Wardens' standing with the Inquisition: if the Wardens were allowed to work with the Inquisition, then sending back to his/her new allies one of their recruits makes the most sense politically.

[Shechinah]

Well, as I said several times, on legal grounds, Rainier was conscripted by Gordon Blackwall. So he is a Grey Warden and never needed to pretend he was someone else, even though he, himself, didn't realize it. Which means that he already received an amnesty.

The way I see it, since the revelation comes after Adamant, Rainier's fate depends first and foremost on the Grey Wardens' standing with the Inquisition: if the Wardens were allowed to work with the Inquisition, then sending back to his/her new allies one of their recruits makes the most sense politically.

 

Except would it not be the Grey Warden then who'd be able to advocate for clemency on political grounds and not the Inquisition?

 

I think it is debatable if Rainier can be considered able to recieve the legal rights of a Grey Warden, for the lack of a better term, since I think Rainier operated independent from the Grey Wardens and not on their orders but that may be me misremembering. I think Rainier recruited members for the Wardens on his own initiative, not per orders or with the leave of the Wardens.

 

I thought the Grey Warden's membership were dependent upon the completion of the Joining since you are referred to as a recruit until after and I believe Duncan declares you to be a Grey Warden after the Joining. I thought Daven and Jory were posthumously considered Grey Wardens because they died during the Joining. It seems odd they'd consider you to be a Grey Warden if you lack the elements that makes a Grey Warden a Grey Warden such as the immunity to the taint.   

[Nixou]

I thought the Grey Warden's membership were dependent upon the completion of the Joining since you are referred to as a recruit until after and I believe Duncan declares you to be a Grey Warden after the Joining. I thought Daven and Jory were posthumously considered Grey Wardens because they died during the Joining. It seems odd they'd consider you to be a Grey Warden if you lack the elements that makes a Grey Warden a Grey Warden such as the immunity to the taint.   

 

 

If you look at Rainier's Trespasser's codex entry, it says, for those who sent him to the Wardens:

 

Status: Recruited

Joining: Survived

 

 

It's quite clear that you're considered a recruit whether you already underwent the joining or not (otherwise they wouldn't bother to mention wether you survived the joining in the first place). I suspect that those who refused to undergo it like Ser Jory or died before having the opportunity to drink the decoction are simply put in the same "Joining: Died" column as Daveth and Mhairi

[CoM Solaufein]

I kept him around, he's a valuable tank. But personally I would have taken the Darth Vader approach with him. He apologizes to Inky, Inky walks up to him, pretends to shake hands with him and sticks a dagger in his gut. "Apology accepted, Blackwall."

I hate being lied to.

[straykat]

I kept him around, he's a valuable tank. But personally I would have taken the Darth Vader approach with him. He apologizes to Inky, Inky walks up to him, pretends to shake hands with him and sticks a dagger in his gut. "Apology accepted, Blackwall."

I hate being lied to.

 

Even though he lies, he's always hinting that people need redemption... He even approves of you allying with the mages for that reason. Which kind of gets to me. I gotta soft spot for that at least. Enough to consider the Joining (where he could still die). I don't see anything honorable about the Wardens to begin with, so that doesn't get in my way. I'm no Alistair.

 

That wasn't my original choice though...

 

Besides, my Dalish Warden killed those humans in the beginning. You could say my whole story starts off on this angle.

[BigBrolly]

Well, as I said several times, on legal grounds, Rainier was conscripted by Gordon Blackwall. So he is a Grey Warden and never needed to pretend he was someone else, even though he, himself, didn't realize it. Which means that he already received an amnesty.
The way I see it, since the revelation comes after Adamant, Rainier's fate depends first and foremost on the Grey Wardens' standing with the Inquisition: if the Wardens were allowed to work with the Inquisition, then sending back to his/her new allies one of their recruits makes the most sense politically.

This is why I almost always send him back to the wardens...he's already a warden once recruited. To further emphasis this, the wardens even have a tribute to those who don't survive the joining

[Phoe77]

I imagine that Grey Warden recruits get their immunity upon being recruited rather than when they complete their Joining.  Being conscripted prevents City Elf wardens from being arrested at the end of their origin story.  Members of the organisation itself might not consider him a true Warden until the Joining was completed, but I imagine that the rest of the world would, for all intents and purposes.  

 

And for the sake of clarification, didn't he actually only order the death of that one chevalier?  I thought that the wife and children were killed by his men and that he wasn't even aware they would be present until the plan had already been put into motion.  Not to suggest that that absolves him of guilt or anything, but ordering the death of one man is different than ordering the annihilation of an entire family.

 

As to why he chose to admit the truth to the Inquisitor, I suppose that will always be up to individual interpretation.  It seems to me, though, that revealing his past in the hopes that the Inquisitor would exercise their influence to pardon the man that had lied to them from the get-go is kind of a ballsy move, especially when you consider that no one seemed to be onto his lie.  

[fhs33721]

And for the sake of clarification, didn't he actually only order the death of that one chevalier?  I thought that the wife and children were killed by his men and that he wasn't even aware they would be present until the plan had already been put into motion.  Not to suggest that that absolves him of guilt or anything, but ordering the death of one man is different than ordering the annihilation of an entire family.

Yep, Blackwall thought he would attack one noble and his bodyguards. The noble that hired him most likely "forgot" to inform him that children and wife would be present as well.

[Dragongirl24]

I pardon him every time.  I believe that he is truly a good man and that he is committed to making the world a better place, and I'm reluctant to send such a man to the gallows.  While justice may demand that he be punished for his past actions, I think that it would be wasteful to execute him in the name of principle.  Allowing him to live to continue his efforts to atone will certainly lead to more good than allowing him to be hanged would.  

 

I also believe that he would have been unable to be punished for the crime if everything had gone like it was supposed to and he had completed his Joining.  He may not officially be a Warden, but my Inquisitors tend to see that as hair splitting when it comes to issues of immunity.

 

I also may be biased because of how very fond of him I am, however.

 

How in the world can you say that he is truly a good man why would you believe him he who lied to you all that time how can you trust someone like him. I myself let him rot in prison i never pardoned him not even once he is a good tank though but i discovered that only in my first playthrough ( i did not know what he did in his past but i always knew from the beginning that he was hiding something ) after that he never joins my party again. I think that might be the reason why a lot of you people pardon him because he is a good tank but for me Cassandra is a good tank as well.   

[fhs33721]

How in the world can you say that he is truly a good man why would you believe him he who lied to you all that time how can you trust someone like him. I myself let him rot in prison i never pardoned him not even once he is a good tank though but i discovered that only in my first playthrough ( i did not know what he did in his past but i always knew from the beginning that he was hiding something ) after that he never joins my party again. I think that might be the reason why a lot of you people pardon him because he is a good tank but for me Cassandra is a good tank as well.   

Various good deeds durig the game aside? That is simple. Because Cole says so. And Cole can read people's mind and therefore probably knows what he's talking about.