97 réponses à ce sujet

[omgodzilla]

Tis preferable but know this, she'll be back again eventually

 

Yeah, but both the warden and the inquisitor will probably be missing in action by then so she won't get to take her revenge. I'll be friends with her on my new character up until i get to decapitate her again =D 

[The Baconer]

Why not? You keep on talking about her motivations. I don't know anything about that really. I can only take what I know from dialogue with her. Not invisible subtext and unseen motivations. When you talk about this so much, it's called projecting. You're seeing things that aren't there. Or can only barely be interpreted that way.

 

There's her dialogue both with other companions and directly with the inquisitor, her actions, and even a glimpse into her psyche in the Fade and via Cole. If you're going to claim that these are things that "aren't there", you're in denial.

 

 

Like saying she'd had some plan all along to set up the Loyalists and gain power. When there is no evidence she was getting anything out of it.

 

You mean aside from all the literal, tangible benefits we observed her receiving from the arrangement?

[The Baconer]

I wouldn't deny any of those. I'm glad if we have common things to reference. It's when you starting going into motivations. Or if I point out things from dialogue (like her approval boosts or lines about the Chantry) and you act as if it's just minor part of the character.. or how it's all convenient for her just to say those things. You're basically saying what she believes and doesn't.. which I can't do.

 

I don't know why you can't, unless you weren't paying attention. Vivienne is, for the most part, straight-up in regards to what she's about. The other interactions I mentioned flesh this out further.

 

 

As for stuff with companions, she's full of snide comments. I never said she was a friendly person. I said I understand if people don't like her. That doesn't mean she's villain material.

 

I wasn't talking about her friendliness, so this isn't relevant.

[Little Princess Peach]

I would of liked to be divine, Dalish leading a human cult errm religon

[The Baconer]

I pay attention fine. What I can't do is think like you. I take things at face value, while you're sniffing out conspiracies and plots. lol

 

There is no sniffing out of conspiracies or plots. She wants power, and she takes it when she can get. It's a simple observation.

 

 

What she's straight up about is her Chantry beliefs and seeing this as an opportunity for power. I never denied this. I'm simply saying her Chantry beliefs balance out her "Game" stuff. You just want to handwave those beliefs, when I think they're important to her.

 

You're also talking to someone WHO LIKED Thedas before all of this.  I didn't play Dragon Age to change the world. That was Anders. Not me. I had fun with this world. Nor am I a big mage freedom type. I support the Circle system and am fine with her crushing anyone trying to cause another rebellion. If this is "evil" to you, then all you're saying is that the old system was evil too. I only think it needed improvement and Templars to not be like Kirkwall (don't bother with a debate on this though. Everyone's already debated this to death for two years on these boards. I don't want to derail too much ).

 

To equate the "Divine Heretic" with this is silly. Because it's similar to the Chantry as it was.

 

 

That's the point; her true beliefs don't matter. To the vast majority of Andrastians, they are told that the new figurehead of their religion is a mage, which goes against generations upon generations of ingrained beliefs and cultural practices (and, well, for good reason, at least to a point). They are told to shut up and deal with it, this is how stuff works now after nearly a thousand years of status-quo. If they don't, they are violently put down (again, the exact kind of stuff you claim to dislike). She reinstates the Circles, but at the same time works to centralize power within her office. How should they be expected to interpret this? For them, she will embody the image of the tyrannical mage lords they were all taught to fear, and in many respects this view will be justified.

 

That's the entire point. From the perspective of 90% of southern Andrastians, Vivienne is a Divine Heretic. To say that an ambitious or power-hungry PC becoming Divine is gratuitous in comparison to this is just silly.

[The Baconer]

You're putting all the fault on her, and not the people fighting it. And after all you've seen of hardcore Templar types, you're only giving these people innocent motivations.. as if they're rebelling because of status-quo. There's probably a lot of straight up hatred going on too.

 

Lol what does fault even have to do with it? Their hatred is a product of the status-quo, and in their eyes, her violent reprisal will vindicate them. People will complain about a Sue player rolling in, telling people to change their beliefs, and then punching them until they stop complaining. This is pretty much what happens in 2 of the 3 Divine candidate endings, including Vivienne. 

 

 

She's no heretic, because there's nothing in the Chant that forbids mages serving Andrastianism in the first place. In fact, it encourages it. Andraste would have it no other way. Does that merely mean lighting fires in cathedrals or sitting in a Circle, waiting for the next blight?

 

This is literally how Magisters and the Black Divine justify their rule by using the Chant. Personally, I don't give a fig either way, but I won't expect the people of Southern Thedas to buy it, which is the point.

[in it for the lolz]

YES! then my Inquisitor can spread the worship of the Dark gods!

[OriginalTibs]

An author has to occasionally evaluate his story. It is cruel but too often the best character, scene, or plot device is wonderful but does not work for the story and it has to be cut out. It might be like cutting off your hand to let go of a particularly good story element but if it takes things the wrong way. opens up too many questions, or diverts the plot irrecoverably you must excise it. You can save it for another story, maybe its own story, but at some point in editing authorship requires sacrifice and self-discipline.

[Giantdeathrobot]

There is no sniffing out of conspiracies or plots. She wants power, and she takes it when she can get. It's a simple observation.

 

 

 

 

That's the point; her true beliefs don't matter. To the vast majority of Andrastians, they are told that the new figurehead of their religion is a mage, which goes against generations upon generations of ingrained beliefs and cultural practices (and, well, for good reason, at least to a point). They are told to shut up and deal with it, this is how stuff works now after nearly a thousand years of status-quo. If they don't, they are violently put down (again, the exact kind of stuff you claim to dislike). She reinstates the Circles, but at the same time works to centralize power within her office. How should they be expected to interpret this? For them, she will embody the image of the tyrannical mage lords they were all taught to fear, and in many respects this view will be justified.

 

That's the entire point. From the perspective of 90% of southern Andrastians, Vivienne is a Divine Heretic. To say that an ambitious or power-hungry PC becoming Divine is gratuitous in comparison to this is just silly.

 

Vivienne shakes things up by being a mage and concentrating power, but she's still a human women who reinstates the Circles and the Templars, so she brings stability as well as chaos. There's a big step between accepting that and accepting, say, a Qunari male who opens the Chantry gates to all races and mages like Leliana does. The Grand Clerics are willing to make concessions, but that would mean basically pissing away all their beliefs and traditions. And there's only so many rules the PC can break before it becomes silly.

 

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it for future's sake. A PC Divine could run the gamut from a devout Andrastian human female to an atheist male elf mage (who uses necromancy for good measure). Unless they make the Divine as nondescript as possible, that's hell to import. At least with the three candidates they have stories set in stone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would have liked that Inquisition allowed you to be more of a ruthless powermonger. But taking over the Chantry is probably just too lore-breaking for most characters.

[The Baconer]

Vivienne shakes things up by being a mage and concentrating power, but she's still a human women who reinstates the Circles and the Templars, so she brings stability as well as chaos. There's a big step between accepting that and accepting, say, a Qunari male who opens the Chantry gates to all races and mages like Leliana does. The Grand Clerics are willing to make concessions, but that would mean basically pissing away all their beliefs and traditions. And there's only so many rules the PC can break before it becomes silly.

 

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it for future's sake. A PC Divine could run the gamut from a devout Andrastian human female to an atheist male elf mage (who uses necromancy for good measure). Unless they make the Divine as nondescript as possible, that's hell to import. At least with the three candidates they have stories set in stone.

 

From the blurb on the concept art, they were planning on make it hard, with both gender and race acting as obstacles. It very well could have been a balancing game between race, gender, proposed reforms, and force of arms. This would make something like an "Openly atheist male Qunari who loves to talk **** on the Chantry and just wants to shake things up" impossible, while a Male Qunari who takes the Vivienne route (advocates the continuation of traditional doctrine and practices, but also amasses power for themselves) would be extremely difficult, but potentially feasible.

 

This could also work to ensure that the PC's reign as Divine would basically coincide with the results from the one existing Divine candidates: Drastic reform, moderation, or the preservation of tradition, with some nuances for each.

[Camenae]

The Inquisitor cannot be Divine.  It's fine that he/she gets away with judging people and attending all formal War Table strategic discussions in tasteless beige lounge/sleepwear (that's not even good as sleepwear because something that needlessly form-fitting is bound to be uncomfortable).  But that would never fly as the Divine.  

[Giantdeathrobot]

From the blurb on the concept art, they were planning on make it hard, with both gender and race acting as obstacles. It very well could have been a balancing game between race, gender, proposed reforms, and force of arms. This would make something like an "Openly atheist male Qunari who loves to talk **** on the Chantry and just wants to shake things up" impossible, while a Male Qunari who takes the Vivienne route (advocates the continuation of traditional doctrine and practices, but also amasses power for themselves) would be extremely difficult, but potentially feasible.

 

This could also work to ensure that the PC's reign as Divine would basically coincide with the results from the one existing Divine candidates: Drastic reform, moderation, or the preservation of tradition, with some nuances for each.

 

I suppose Bioware thought that was too much work for one outcome. Plus, you just know that. in the next game, people will go ''my PC didn't do this!!'' if the Divine/CHantry does X thing they don't like in DA4. We had more than enough of type of crying with the Warden I think, thank you very much.

 

And, it also means you could easily get a cool story opportunity cut off by choosing one race or gender. Romances are one thing, becoming Divine is on another level entirely.

[errantknight]

I really like the idea, but it would have needed to be limited to humans, I think. I just don't see them accepting a nonhuman as divine at this point in their history. A male divine would be shocking enough. Too bad that got cut, would have been a lot of fun. Might have been complicated, though. I have a feeling things aren't going to go well for the next divine. Side note: I think there should be more outcome/conversation differences between races and classes, not fewer. It's not like you're only allowed to play the game once.

Love the photo, lol.

[lil yonce]

Should've been in the game. My inquisitor would like nothing more than to sit on the sunburst throne, flex her mark like an angry little god and demand Thedas' pain in penance for her suffering under the Circle.

[ShadowLordXII]

It's the same thing as Corypheus, as far as I'm concerned. Another asshat trying to be a god of this world.

 

Well...in Origins, you could potentially and personally murder everyone in your party if you were simply that evil.

 

Being able to be just as evil as Corypheus as Inquisitor would be a cruel twist considering how so many people look to the Inquisitor as an agent of the Maker and a savior sent to help them in their darkest hour.

[ShadowLordXII]

I can see why Bioware decided not to implement this idea, but I'm a bit disappointed as well.

 

For one, what would stop the Inquisitor from taking the Sunburst Throne for himself/herself? Keep in mind on how just how devastated that the Chantry leadership, organization, stability and overall existence was badly damaged or outright made non-existent by many factors all piling on each other at once such as:

 

The mage-templar war (With the vast majority of Mages, templars and seekers refusing to recognize Chantry authority and abandoning it);

 

The Divine's sudden death along with that of any immediate successors or several leaders/delegates from the mages and templars willing to reach a compromise due to the Breach;

 

How much power the Inquisition can gather for itself via recruiting the templars/mages and grey wardens, Establishing positions and routes of trade/espionage/supplies throughout Orlais and Ferelden, Earning the support and patronage of various nobles and organizations including the King/Queen of Ferelden and the Empress/Emperor of Orlais who either owes a giant debt to the Inquisitor or the Inquisitor has so much blackmail on them that they pretty much control the emperor/empress like one would a puppet on strings;

 

Not to mention the rising number of people who would actually support the Inquisitor's bid since many believe that the Inquisitor is basically a messiah blessed and sent by the Maker himself. (Something hugely helped by how the Inquisitor can single-handedly close/open close rifts in the Fade, Slew a pseudo-archdemon; Closed the Breach; and single-handedly killed one of the original Magisters who caused the Blight and the birth of the Darkspawn)

 

If the Inquisitor wanted the Sunburst Throne for himself/herself, who would stop them? Is there really any legal or ethical grounds that can be argued to oppose the Inquisitor's bid that can stand up the man/woman's deeds and their literally apparent God-given power? (Most people don't know the truth and it's up to the Inquisitor as to whether they'll reveal it or not)

[Reznore57]

I'm glad they cut it.

It could have worked with a non mage female Inquisitor and I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

I know it's a game , power fantasy etc...but sometimes what empower the playable character is just not so great for the world setting.

 

Anyway the Divine business is not really needed , at the end yeah you could take the Sunburst Throne if you wanted to , you have the army of the faithful following you .

What was lacking is the future of the Inquisition .

You're basically an independant army (because you need no one ) who support whoever you put on the Orlesian and Sunburst Throne.