61 réponses à ce sujet

[ParagonStovus]

 On my Dalish mage playthrough, Jana's ritualistic murder due to my ill-thought out decision was my catalyst for banishing the Wardens from southern Thedas.

[Vox Draco]

^ Agree. Warden were so desperate it's stupid.

 

It's the singing...have you heard the singing during "The Calling"? If you had, you would not condemn the Wardens. It turns the toughest, most seasoned warriors into ... wrecks...bellow an example of how it is ... *shudders* .. The Wardens had no other choice, they had no choice ... the song, its calling them, ever calling, never to stop....

 

Spoiler

[Ieldra]

Yes, because blood magic and dealing with demons always works out so well!

Yeah, yeah, the old "evil doesn't pay" doctrine. It is, in fact, rather more true that it does pay if you can deal with the backlash, only stories tend to mask that and paint it as self-defeating. Not that I'd recommend it, on the contrary, but I can't stand that delusional stance. In DAO, you could deal with Connor's demon and come out on top.

 

As for the Wardens, one of those older Wardens offered himself up as a sacrifice. Had that worked and the Blights been defeated, nobody would've asked how they did it. They would be heroes. Their mistake was in trusting Erimond.

[Beliar86]

The wardens thought they were about to go extinct. If they didn't do something drastic to end the blights before extinction the entirety of thedas dies unable to kill an arch demon, and the wardens failed in their mission.

Though even if they didn't know about Cory you would think it's more than a little suspicious when tevinter mages show up with ridiculously convenient timing when the mass calling happens with this blood magic ritual that solves everything. Even without Cory in the picture that's whole notha level of fucktarded.

[Corwyn]

I've always recruited her so I've never seen the scene. Does she go willingly like the old warden?

[ReiKokoFuuu]

i had a really bad feeling about the wardens, so i went with my instinct and convinced her not to join them.  i later found out that clarel would've killed her if you didn't dissuade her from joining the wardens so i was relieved >____<  i'd hate to see a young life just get snuffed out like that.

[SpookyDjinn]

Clarel kills Jana if you ask Jana to join the wardens? On most of my playthroughs I try to save as many wardens as possible, but for some reason it annoyed me to the point where i just wanted to kill all of them.

I wouldn't say I was angry, I was more......shocked and saddened. But since making that mistake during my first playthrough, I now meta-game -which is something I don't usually do- that part so she joins the Inquistion instead.

[Wulfsten]

Clarel was just a weird plot device. The whole storyline didn't make much sense. If they wanted me more involved in the story, I needed to see, not just be told, about Clarel's decision and motivations.

Instead, Clarel's like "mwa ha ha" until she realizes she's been tricked and now all of a sudden is a good guy again.

The whole thing makes little sense.

TLDR: I'm not upset about Jana because the whole plot is ridiculous.

 

The storyline made perfect sense. Clarel and the other Wardens heard the Calling, and freaked out. As is typical of the Wardens (and has been set up since DA:O) they turned to extreme measures to try to prevent the Blight from taking over after their deaths, so they resorted to blood magic. To be honest, given the Warden's proclivities, and that there are probably many elven Wardens, there's nothing to say that they have any particular reservations against blood magic in principle. 

 

The really extreme step was sacrificing their own to summon demons, which the story clearly presents as having gone too far. It would have been nice if we had spent more time with Clarel agonising over this decision, but it wasn't necessary. Her actions were believable from that point of view, and she isn't at all presented as a "Mwa ha ha" villain, in your words. 

 

If you follow the codex entries you even see evidence of Clarel being reluctant about the whole thing. 

 

Overall, the storyline is not as effective as it could have been, since Clarel is a character we have never met before and have no real empathy with until her scene at Adamant, but it wasn't ridiculous or unbelievable. 

[CronoDragoon]

It's possible, given that all this takes place in or around the Western Approach, that Erimond specifically told Clarel that he had found a way to the sleeping Archdemon that the Wardens already know is beneath the Western Approach, and for which people like Cole and the darkspawn heard the singing in Asunder when they go through the area.

[The Oracle]

Personally, I thought it made absolutely no sense for Clariel to do what she did. I actually have a ton of sympathy for the idea of killing the Old Gods before they can be Blighted. I know that with meta Solas knowledge, it's may not a good idea, but from what we know of the Blight over the years, and the fact that the Warden's know where the Old Gods are buried, I'm surprised it wasn't attempted ages ago. Seriously, did no-one after the 3rd Blight think Old Gods + Taint = Blight. Take one thing from the equation and it may well collapse.

 

However, going from "agh, this sudden calling has us all freaked and worried" to "oh hey, lets raise up a demon army from this incredibly fortuitous Magister with the obviously evil moustache and raise a horrifying demon army from hundreds of our Warden's slain by our own hands". It's like Fiona and the choice to go into indentured service with Alexius. I get you can be scared and worried for the future but both decisions to enslave their own people (Mages) or slaughter them to raise demons (Wardens) was just far too great a leap from worried to unbelievable idiocy and blindness.

[Gervaise]

So far as Jana was concerned I didn't quite appreciate her logic about how the Wardens saved her since they weren't doing a particularly convincing job of it until we turned up and then promptly left the area when the village was still overrun by undead.    So I thought it only fair that I recruited her to the Inquisition since we were the ones actually helping save people.

 

As for the Warden's logic, leaving aside the blood magic which they have used before when it suited them, if you think you are succumbing to the Calling, this presumably means eventually you will not have control of your faculties.   In that case is it really sensible to summon a load of demons when you may lose control of them before even getting anywhere near the archdemon?    Also did they not think it odd that every Warden suddenly started hearing the Calling?    Since Clarel knew about Corypheus and the events in the Virmark Mountains, might she not at least wonder?   In fact it always seemed odd to me that since the Wardens knew the prison had been breached, the leadership were not aware back in the Anderfels and warning bells started ringing, since they must have kept records there and so realise the reason he had originally been imprisoned and in view of their knowledge about archdemons (which Hawke and co did not have) might suspect he might not really be dead.   You'd also think Clarel's first response would be to contact HQ if nothing else to make them aware of what they were doing, yet according to Last Flight the messages from Orlais just stopped.  

 

Lastly, the solution to a shortage of Wardens is to go on a recruitment drive, not summon an army of demons.   After all demons can't kill archdemons, not if you want them to remain dead.

[thats1evildude]

I'm not really seeing what others say about Clarel's characterization. She never came off as evil to me, just desperate and genuinely regretful of her actions. She was a good person who, like a lot of mages, was too confident in the power of magic to fix any problem.

Now Erimond, he definitely came off as a villain. Mustache-twirling ******, that one.

[The Oracle]

Cole said he was "an ars*hole". That's all that need to be said of Erimond. If even Cole can't dredge up a single whisper of good about you, you're pretty much done.

[zambingo]

Clarel isnt the villain though, she's just set up into thinking what she's doing is right to save the wardens

The most compelling perhaps even successful villains are those that believe they are doing what's right and can convince others of that. In many cases taking action isn't the wrong, it's what action gets taken that is... And therein lies the great dilemma. Good intentions and all that jazz.

[Wulfram]

Clarel isn't a villain, just really really dumb.

[zambingo]

Yes, she was. Clarel is a villain who has an opportunity for redemption. Pop Culture wise, she follows Darth Vader's basic path. Being able to redeem yourself doesn't change what you were, it just allows you to live on /or be remembered differently.

[WardenWade]

I've begun to think every faction in DAI was incredibly desperate.  The Wardens are just painted the blackest, I think, but the rebel mages, Seekers, red templars, Orlesians and even Solas and so on were all desperate for one reason or another and every one ended up turning to Corypheus/Tevinter--knowingly or not--to fix their problems.  Name a group who didn't screw up, heh   Plenty of blame for everyone...

[Dai Grepher]

Clarel just struck me as another idiot Grey Warden like most of them. My Hero of Ferelden never liked the Wardens and worked to change it from within. Even if the Wardens had all started hearing the Calling, the Silver Order established by the Hero should have been able to take over recruitment efforts after the alleged mass extinction event. The Wardens of Orlais could have done a similar thing. Instead they take a new recruit like Jana and needlessly murder her. Reminds me of Jory, actually.

 

Fortunately I was paying attention to the game events and encouraged Jana to join the Inquisition, using the nobility perk. I mean, we knew bad things were happening with the Wardens, so why wouldn't we try to keep her out of their mess?

[Kantr]

The most compelling perhaps even successful villains are those that believe they are doing what's right and can convince others of that. In many cases taking action isn't the wrong, it's what action gets taken that is... And therein lies the great dilemma. Good intentions and all that jazz.

Possibly. But did you have to quote a post I made in december?

[Fearsome1]

What made me even angrier was when all it took to shake Clarel was the thought that Corypheus was still alive..

 

You think that before killing a sh*t load of Wardens, you'd check first if that was necessary.

 

She start killing Wardens, then you show up and say "Yo, are you sure it's not Corypheus making the Calling"

 

then she goes "Wait really? I guess I should have checked that first before summoning a few hundred demons"

 

then "So you didn't check? if Stroud knows about Corypheus, then you would know about it too given that you're Warden Commander"

 

then she goes "ok fine, I won't kill my 200th Warden because we have to check these accusations"

 

Some of this is simply individual gamer perception.

 

Erimond clearly states that all that he had to do was dangle the possibility of a little power in front of Clarel and she was all too eager to jump on it. Between the false calling scaring the Wardens into thinking that they were all dying and that shiny insta-fix (from their "friendly" Tevinter ally) suddenly becoming available; yes the Wardens just made the wrong call. I more than agree that actually seeing more of Clarel's personal actions made manifest within the game was truly necessary to render her personal compromise in starker light, and that this is one of the really poor decisions made by the devs in not showing us and only telling us - but that's what we got. As Cassandra says, "Deal. With. It."

 

I did appreciate seeing the various emotions play out upon her face as the full weight of her mistakes punched her right in the gut at Adamant, and to me that happened more from her witnessing the arrival of Corypheus dragon and less from the invocation of the darkspawn-magisters name to finally clue her in to Erimond's deceit.

[zambingo]

Possibly. But did you have to quote a post I made in december?

I responded to your assertion that Clarel wasn't a villain, so yeah. Also why would the date matter?

[Mistic]

Name a group who didn't screw up, heh

 

The Inquisition

 

I still want to know what happened with the Wardens in Ferelden. The game is vague at best about them. Even the Warden journals in the Storm Coast seemed to come from Clarel's men.

[Dai Grepher]

^Maybe they are with the Hero of Ferelden.

[WardenWade]

The Inquisition

 

I still want to know what happened with the Wardens in Ferelden. The game is vague at best about them. Even the Warden journals in the Storm Coast seemed to come from Clarel's men.

That's a good point, and there are times that I personally feel the Inquisition drops the ball as well.  Notably, IMO, the handling of the Adamant situation as what seems to me to be a punitive siege (with what I feel is a lack of discipline in the Inquisition troops) rather than potentially a diplomatic mission that could have saved lives, and the feeling almost of an imperialist invasion I get from the march (a relic of the Exalted March expansion?) on the Arbor Wilds (especially odd when playing as an elf).

[FemShem]

Clarel kills Jana if you ask Jana to join the wardens? On most of my playthroughs I try to save as many wardens as possible, but for some reason it annoyed me to the point where i just wanted to kill all of them.

I never noticed this...is legitimate anger like legitimate rape...everyone gets it?...I think everyone would get mad if they noticed.

You get approval from Sera if you tell her not to join.  There's so much crap about Sera being a possible old god...just adds to the...i wonder catergory.