95 réponses à ce sujet

[H. Birdman]

Let me start with the standard disclaimers:  I generally liked the game.  I appreciate the responsiveness to DA2 criticism.  And I've gotten a 70 hour playthrough out of it, so I feel like I got my money's worth.  So please no "BioWare can never do right, no matter how much they give you" arguments.  This is constructive criticism.

 

That said, I probably won't play DAI again any time soon, because there was no sense of purpose behind the places.  Having lots of open areas is nice, but the question I kept coming back to was, "Why am I here again?"  Epic dramas require clear motivations.  If you can't, within five seconds, explain why the protagonist is doing what she's doing, the motivation part has gone off the rails and you're in danger of losing the audience.  In the particular context of an adventure story, you have to be able to understand what the main character is doing in a particular place.

 

Consider DAO as a model.  At any given time, it was very easy to explain the Warden's purpose in a given place.  If you are in Redcliffe, you are trying to get into the castle to the Arl, so he can help fight the blight.  The vast majority of subsidiary tasks (preparing the villagers for battle with the undead, dealing with the tavern owner who won't help, etc.) are directly tied --through clear, tightly-written dialogue--to that main purpose.  So you never forget why you are in Redcliffe.  Or the Brecilian Forest.  Or the tower.  Even in Orzammar, which I grant went on too long, you can always tie every action back to a simple, urgent motive:  "I have to get a king in place so he can help us fight the blight."  No matter how far down the deep roads I go, I know why I'm there.  MA2 and MA3 also generally got this right.  I know why I'm on Palaven's moon, on Tuchanka, etc.  

 

DAI did a poor job on this front.  Most of the areas were introduced by a text-only explanation at the war table, followed by the same perfunctory exposition from Harding:  "Welcome to [region of the country], Inquisitor.  It sure is [wet/dry/woodsy/dangerous] here.  And there's a faction you'll need to fight for some reason.  I think they were mining, or drafted into a war or something. Anyway, they're pissed, so watch out."  And at that point, the drama drops away and this (often beautiful) landscape goes from being a stage for a great story to being a level.  You're there because this is a video game and you need mooks to fight to grind experience and/or unlock something else.

 

Bottom line: DAO felt like a grand story on an average-looking stage.  DAI felt like a game with beautiful levels.  I'll take the former, please.

 

 

[Kantr]

I felt they gave you valid reasons

[Moirnelithe]

You're there because you are the only one who can close rifts. And you need camps to expand your inquisition's influence. But yeah it could do with a bit more than that.

[OriginalTibs]

There is a reason economics takes years to truly understand. There is a reason why diplomats are almost always older people. Statecraft is neither simple nor easily understood. If you could say in a mere five seconds why the Inquisitor has to do all the things he or she does, then you would either be playing an exceedingly shallow game that I have not found or you will have given a criminally simplistic summation.

 

The inquisitor is gathering resources and allies, building infrastructure and reputation. He or she is winning the hearts and minds of the people knowing that these will all be tested and will be necessary to overcome the power witnessed at the destruction of Haven while preserving the Inquisition from the forces that threaten the ultimate outcome with ruin.

 

That is a criminally simple precis why the inquisitor does what he or she does.

[legbamel]

The Hinterlands did suffer from this problem to an extent but I rarely felt that in other areas. Most had subplots that justified exploring and the overarching point of gathering influence and allies. My biggest problem was that, in the end, they didn't matter in the least. i've enjoyed the journey but I can only hope there's a DLC in the works that lets me make use of my epic forces and web of informants and allies. The final battle was a major let-down for me.

[pdusen]

I don't know how you can be somewhere in this game and not know why.

Not only do they discuss why you should go there as a prelude to unlocking the zone, but then any time you get a quest you have the knowledge that completing it will either improve the Inquisition's Power or Influence.

Not to mention them often just being the right thing to do.

[Draninus]

Agreed.  After having gone through one full playthrough, I don't have very much motivation to revisit most of the areas of this game again.  That is saying something, considering I've played through Origins at least a dozen times at this point.

[elrofrost]

But frankly, why do you need to expand the Inquisitions influence? In the end, it doesn't matter. You can skip whole areas, and still finish the game (I did this first play-through just to experience the story) at level 16 (Cory is still an easy kill) with the same outcome.

 

Influence doesn't matter at all. I wish it did. Even in ME3 your points mattered a little - in what choices you had with the Star Child.

 

The extra zones are fillers. Nice to look at, but still fillers. And designed to waste time. Frankly I think it's lazy on BW's part (or they didn't have the resources or time to do right) so they just throw a whole bunch of fetch quests in each zone.

 

I'm in the middle of my second play-through. I doubt I'll take it to end game since the only reason I'm playing again is too see all the areas i skipped the first time. I'm skipping the various shard quests (in fact I'm skipping Forbidden Oasis - last zone I ever want to see again. All that jumping around to get to shards and for what - gear?)

Anyway that's my complaint about this game - it plays like a MMO but is single player. Everything is designed to waste time. I mean the War Table is REAL TIME? Are you kidding? Real time? 

I think EA was planing on releasing DAI as a MMO but got cold feet after the chilly reception ESO got.

[berrieh]

 

Consider DAO as a model.  At any given time, it was very easy to explain the Warden's purpose in a given place.  If you are in Redcliffe, you are trying to get into the castle to the Arl, so he can help fight the blight.  The vast majority of subsidiary tasks (preparing the villagers for battle with the undead, dealing with the tavern owner who won't help, etc.) are directly tied --through clear, tightly-written dialogue--to that main purpose.  So you never forget why you are in Redcliffe.  Or the Brecilian Forest.  Or the tower.  Even in Orzammar, which I grant went on too long, you can always tie every action back to a simple, urgent motive:  "I have to get a king in place so he can help us fight the blight."  No matter how far down the deep roads I go, I know why I'm there.  MA2 and MA3 also generally got this right.  I know why I'm on Palaven's moon, on Tuchanka, etc.  

 

 

See, I don't want them to take DA:O as a model for this, because then they'll force total linearity on the player again. That's the only way to do what you want - no truly optional areas, 

 

They could create areas with even stronger story, but none are so strong that they don't tell you what the issue is. Scout Harding even gives you a nice little overview of issues and items of interest in the area when you arrive. (Not all of them, but enough for flavouring.) I think the areas in DA:I have more surprises, stories, and interesting things to see and read than most of the areas in DA:O as well - the extra dungeons or side stories provide quite a bit of lore and so forth (the Hinterlands the least so, but it still does a good job of telling you the area's major needs - helping refugees, etc). Of course, I want MORE. I want more areas to be like Emprise or Crestwood, where it feels like you've really done something, but I think they're on the right track and a step back to DA:O would be much, much less enjoyable, where everything feels very, very linear and not "open" at all. 

 

Everything you do strengthens the Inquisition and brings Order to Chaos (or can, if you choose to). That's as much a goal as stopping the Blight. Each area also has it's own major problem. The Hinterlands has refugees, Crestwood has the undead and bandits, Fallow Mire has the plague and the Avaar clan, etc. And they give you a reason to unlock the region and travel there. You can say the reason isn't worth it and you don't' want to rescue your soldiers or talk to this Fairbanks, but that's your cuppa. I love that optional nature. Now, if they could make the "area problem" narratives stronger (with many of them still optional), it'd be an improvement, and that's what I hope to see in DA4. 

 

You might say they have too much stuff outside of the area's main problem(s). But, really, so did Orzammar, or Brecellian, or whatever. There were unrelated quests in every area of DA:O. 

 

People say "You can skip whole areas" like it's a bad thing. Really, it's a strength of the game in my book. Makes it more replayable, more flexible, more enjoyable, and fits with what they promised to deliver in an open experience. 

 

Personally, I also don't get why text doesn't count as story, why visuals don't count as story, why overheard NPC dialogue doesn't count as story - why do only cinematic cut scenes = story to some people (and they even give you that with Harding in a way that makes logical sense)?

[Kel Eligor]

It depends on the area, but I actually thought some of them had far more decent side-quests for the Inquisitor than past Bioware games.

 

Hinterlands - Help the refugees to create a name for the Inquisition; put a term to the Mage & Templar conflict, kill scavengers and bandits taking advantage of the situation, feed and clothe the helpless. Overall there were some very strong story reasons for the Inquisitor to bother with this area. 

Storm Coast - Meet with the Chargers, take care of a bandit group who has been assaulting Inquisition forces along the coast, and later deal with Darkspawn/Red Templar activity. Not as engaging story wise, but valid strategic reason for the Inquisition to be there. 

Fallow Mire - Rescue capture Inquisition forces and confront hostile Aavar Tribe. Short and sweet. Seems like a valid use of the Inquisitor's time to secure the Inquisition's foothold in southern Ferelden.

Exalted Plains - Help subdue the Orlesian civil war, and save soldiers from relentless undead attacks due to the veil wearing thin due to the massive war casualties. Seems like an extremely important set of reasons for the Inquisition to be there. The undead risks spreading across Orlais, killing more than the civil war could if the Inquisition doesn't put a stop to it.

Western Approach - Put an end to the Venatori and Darkspawn activity in the region, secure a military foothold in western Orlais and confront the subdued Grey Wardens. This plays directly into the main story. 

Emprise du Lion - Stop the massive Red Templar mining activity in the area, and confront Ishmael to put an end to his machinations. The Inquisition gaining ground here prohibits the Elder One from using the lyrium to empower his troops. 

Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 

Forbidden Oasis - Sidequest central with the temple for the shards. 

Hissing Wastes - Neat little introspection into Dwarven history, kind of a nod at ancient egyptian archeology. Definitely filler. 

 

Obviously there was some questionable quests here and there (Lord Woosley and the Lost Druffalo, anyone?) but overall I think Bioware put some decent thought into the reasons why the Inquisition would bother being present in those areas.  

[berrieh]

Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 

 

When I went there for the first time, it was because people at Skyhold had actually started talking about Fairbanks, and he does send a missive to you, inviting you there, so that's the reason, though I agree it's less strong. Fairbanks, though, is almost a "Robin Hood" level character (if you listen to NPC type dialogue about him - they're spreading his existence like a living myth), so he is "worth" meeting, depending on your point of view, as an Inquisitor. 

 

The Emerald Graves also has the Civil War stuff, and it's gorgeous, but I agree it's "less" tied to the story than some other areas. Just adding to your list. 

[Camenae]

I'm curious and trying to think: Do maybe some people feel that the Inquisitor's purpose in a zone is not as clear as, say the HoF's purpose in a zone, because there's no clear "culmination" to the zone's storyline? 

 

In DA:O every zone had a sort of "culmination" event, usually a boss fight.  Or, if not a boss fight, then still a clear culmination event that says: "Dun, dun, dun--Now you're done here."  By "clear culmination event" I mean things like the coronation of a dwarf king, fighting Kolgrim or taking his deal, siding with werewolves or Dalish, the Landsmeet.

 

Inquisition seems to work differently.  What we're used to being culmination events in the other games can now be done fairly early in a zone.  Like in Crestwood, you can go release the floodwaters from the dam and clear the keep before you do anything else.  In Emprise du Lion, can ignore everything and plow straight to Suledin Keep.  Western Approach, immediately go unlock the operations and plow straight through the Tevinter ruins.  Emerald Graves...that one doesn't have a memorable "culmination event" I can even recall, maybe that Chevalier guy you fight with the 2-hander?  

 

The rest of the content in any given zone is all take-it-or-leave-it sidequests you can leave off and come back to at any time.  

[dreamgazer]

I'm in the middle of my second play-through. I doubt I'll take it to end game since the only reason I'm playing again is too see all the areas i skipped the first time. I'm skipping the various shard quests (in fact I'm skipping Forbidden Oasis - last zone I ever want to see again. All that jumping around to get to shards and for what - gear?)

As well as fire, cold, and spirit damage resistance.

[dreamgazer]

Anyway, I never had a hard time grasping why I was at each location. It's explicitly conveyed before unlocking on the table and expanded upon by Harding when you arrive, and the side-missions do add bits of flavor (whether it's conversation or text) to the conflicts going on in each.

[H. Birdman]

Some are saying the purpose is, "To expand influence.  To do statecraft.  To grow power."  And yes, you're right.  That is the hand wave that BioWare uses to gloss over the lack of a more immediate motivation.

 

My response is simple:  For dramatic purposes, "to do statecraft" is a terrible motivation.  It's vague.  It's attenuated.  You can't know the stakes, because the link to the ultimate outcome runs through a fog.  So it's hard to care.  It's hard to feel a sense of urgency.  And in the case where some marginally more specific motive is (very briefly) stated, it's usually little better than the general "influence/statecraft" pretext.  For example, "We need to establish a foothold in the X region," leads to the question, "Why?  And why do I personally need to do it?  How soon do we need to do it?  Is it urgent?  What specific bad thing happens if I don't do it?  And how is that bad thing made known to me, aside from throwaway text?" 

 

Even if we stipulate that it's not a total non sequitur --and I do stipulate that--  it's weak storytelling for an adventure game. 

[Kinsz]

It depends on the area, but I actually thought some of them had far more decent side-quests for the Inquisitor than past Bioware games.

 

Hinterlands - Help the refugees to create a name for the Inquisition; put a term to the Mage & Templar conflict, kill scavengers and bandits taking advantage of the situation, feed and clothe the helpless. Overall there were some very strong story reasons for the Inquisitor to bother with this area. 

Storm Coast - Meet with the Chargers, take care of a bandit group who has been assaulting Inquisition forces along the coast, and later deal with Darkspawn/Red Templar activity. Not as engaging story wise, but valid strategic reason for the Inquisition to be there. 

Fallow Mire - Rescue capture Inquisition forces and confront hostile Aavar Tribe. Short and sweet. Seems like a valid use of the Inquisitor's time to secure the Inquisition's foothold in southern Ferelden.

Exalted Plains - Help subdue the Orlesian civil war, and save soldiers from relentless undead attacks due to the veil wearing thin due to the massive war casualties. Seems like an extremely important set of reasons for the Inquisition to be there. The undead risks spreading across Orlais, killing more than the civil war could if the Inquisition doesn't put a stop to it.

Western Approach - Put an end to the Venatori and Darkspawn activity in the region, secure a military foothold in western Orlais and confront the subdued Grey Wardens. This plays directly into the main story. 

Emprise du Lion - Stop the massive Red Templar mining activity in the area, and confront Ishmael to put an end to his machinations. The Inquisition gaining ground here prohibits the Elder One from using the lyrium to empower his troops. 

Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 

Forbidden Oasis - Sidequest central with the temple for the shards. 

Hissing Wastes - Neat little introspection into Dwarven history, kind of a nod at ancient egyptian archeology. Definitely filler. 

 

Obviously there was some questionable quests here and there (Lord Woosley and the Lost Druffalo, anyone?) but overall I think Bioware put some decent thought into the reasons why the Inquisition would bother being present in those areas.  

Ill just quote this poster for you OP since i doubt i can do a better job a summing up the areas.

 

Frankly if you dont know why you go to any of these places by now i dont know what to tell you.

[Draining Dragon]

It's like a very deep game of chess, where both players don't know how to play chess.

[Pewps]

Some of you guys are being so dense. No where did the OP say that it's impossible to understand why you're in a zone but rather the way in which BioWare went about explaining why you're there is one of the laziest ways they could have gone about it. You get 2-3 vague sentences from Harding when you first enter and/or you get to read several paragraphs when you first unlock it. 

 

I made the mistake of not reading the Exalted Plains info and I had no clue what was going on. There were 3 different groups of frenchmen fighting each other plus undead and I'm getting lost in trenches without any sure idea of who I'm helping. If your entire understanding of a zone hinges on a brief dossier from when you unlock said zone, I think there might be a need for a bit more exposition.

[H. Birdman]

I keep seeing replies that use terms like "to gain a foothold", "to gain ground", or "to stop X operation."  The problem is, there's only the vaguest gesture toward why this foothold or this ground is really important.  You're just asked to assume that, somewhere in the fog between action and ultimate result, it would be really bad if we didn't have this foothold, or this operation were not stopped.  That's a hand wave, not a good dramatic motivation.

 

Plus, as others have noted, none of these footholds, grounds, or operations matter one iota to the final outcome of the story.  I grant that's something we have to accept in games with side quests, but it does make it harder to simply assume their significance without better explanation.  It also cuts in favor of a game with a much higher story-to-filler ratio.

[BloodyTalon]

They really needed to put in an option where you can refuse to join and/or leave...then get assulted by assassins and mobs depending on when you leave with no party support.  Then have an ending for that.

[dreamgazer]

Some of you guys are being so dense.

Nope, I just played the game and was fine with the (typically) subtle developing exposition in each zone.

[Kinsz]

Some of you guys are being so dense. No where did the OP say that it's impossible to understand why you're in a zone but rather the way in which BioWare went about explaining why you're there is one of the laziest ways they could have gone about it. You get 2-3 vague sentences from Harding when you first enter and/or you get to read several paragraphs when you first unlock it. 

 

I made the mistake of not reading the Exalted Plains info and I had no clue what was going on. There were 3 different groups of frenchmen fighting each other plus undead and I'm getting lost in trenches without any sure idea of who I'm helping. If your entire understanding of a zone hinges on a brief dossier from when you unlock said zone, I think there might be a need for a bit more exposition.

And if you bothered talking to the first NPC you run into there he explains what the fighting there is about. who is that on ? you or Bioware?

[Gaz83]

I don't agree with most of the original post, but there is one thing he got absolutely right - real time missions. No place in a single player story. 

[Casuist]

 

Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 

 

 

Spoilers follow...

 

The backstory for both the Emerald Graves and the exalted plains requires a bit of reading in the form of intercepted missives. the Freemen of the Dales are the opposing faction in both regions... but while it becomes clear than many of the leadership figures are fighting against the Orlesians for reasons of their own (some more "justified" than others) it also becomes clear that Corypheus' agents have been actively supporting the Freemen in order to destabilize Orlais. For example, Gordian is the NPC agent of Corypheus in the Exalted Plains responsible for the mass raising of the undead- you can discover that he was also partially responsible for corrupting the defected Orlesian general running things from the villa in the Emerald Graves.

 

This sort of story exposition likely could have been enhanced by cutscene discussions after the event (say, with any of the 3 advisers) but being able to dig it up yourself along the way is a good, subtle way to reveal aspects of the plot rather than being beaten over the head with plot background (some of which your character should not yet be aware of) at the beginning of each area.