95 réponses à ce sujet

[ruggly]

I just wish the stories for each area were longer and not just 'go capture these camps to take back this place'

[Applepie_Svk]

I felt they gave you valid reasons

 

such as ?

 

 

Spoilers follow...

 

The backstory for both the Emerald Graves and the exalted plains requires a bit of reading in the form of intercepted missives. the Freemen of the Dales are the opposing faction in both regions... but while it becomes clear than many of the leadership figures are fighting against the Orlesians for reasons of their own (some more "justified" than others) it also becomes clear that Corypheus' agents have been actively supporting the Freemen in order to destabilize Orlais. For example, Gordian is the NPC agent of Corypheus in the Exalted Plains responsible for the mass raising of the undead- you can discover that he was also partially responsible for corrupting the defected Orlesian general running things from the villa in the Emerald Graves.

 

This sort of story exposition likely could have been enhanced by cutscene discussions after the event (say, with any of the 3 advisers) but being able to dig it up yourself along the way is a good, subtle way to reveal aspects of the plot rather than being beaten over the head with plot background (some of which your character should not yet be aware of) at the beginning of each area. 

 

 

Dude, I could read about places aswell in DA:O, a dairy or codex entries is not something that DA:I has invented. The point is, that even if there are some quest givers inside the locations, they are made so inovative that I almost felt like playing World of Warcraft, first time when I´ve seen that great feature - walk out of conversation, I knew that there is rather something fishy about it. I believe that context of locations doesn´t require to be tied to the main quest, but it requires for single player RPG context and interaction with certain location, which creator already managed to do back in DA:O or in the SWTOR.

 

The question is that why is BioWare trying always to do something so-called inovative, rather than to stick with something what´s already working. And I think that I know the answer, it´s simple, it´s budget and time which they are buying by cutting precious pieces out of game to be able to finish it, even if it means overall decrease of quality. 

[Pewps]

And if you bothered talking to the first NPC you run into there he explains what the fighting there is about. who is that on ? you or Bioware?

 

I hadn't done Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts at that point so I had no clue what relevance the squabbles of Celene and Gaspard played in the story or why I should care about the Freemen. But even then, there's several other zones. In the Storm Coast, you meet the Bull's Chargers and resolve the Blades of Hessarin killing your men within the first 15 minutes you're there, at which point you're basically left to wander around because something about Grey Wardens? The Hissing Wastes is a complete non sequitur and the Venatori presence feels like it was forced in to maintain relevance. It turns out the reason they were there was because of a schematic for a Superb Rune of Demonslaying. The Fallow Mire exists solely to rescue 5-6 Inquisition soldiers, hardly worth the leader of the Inquisition's time, seems more like it should have existed in the form of an operation. 

[Amaror]

There are some zones which seemed to have an overarching goal of some sort but it's really weakly portrayed most of the time. 

Take for example the Venatori searching the tevinter ruins in the western approach. It was just sortof there and you only find out about it because you try to get rid of some darkspawn, that apparently harrass you troops a little. Which agains throws up the question why i have to do it when i have an entire castle full of troops nearby but whatever. 

They could have, for example, put it together with the one ruin with the time magic gone wrong in it. While you travel somewhere, a group of venatori spawns and attacks you with time magic, as long as your in the level range for the western approach. You then find some magical artifacts on them that reveal that they were found in the tevinter ruins in the wester approach. When you reach the western approach you find out that the venatori closed of the entrances and you have to find another way, by capturing the nearby keep as a powerfull outpust. This would also give you a reason to capture that keep besides "Because It's there".

[Kinsz]

I hadn't done Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts at that point so I had no clue what relevance the squabbles of Celene and Gaspard played in the story or why I should care about the Freemen. But even then, there's several other zones. In the Storm Coast, you meet the Bull's Chargers and resolve the Blades of Hessarin killing your men within the first 15 minutes you're there, at which point you're basically left to wander around because something about Grey Wardens? The Hissing Wastes is a complete non sequitur and the Venatori presence feels like it was forced in to maintain relevance. It turns out the reason they were there was because of a schematic for a Superb Rune of Demonslaying. The Fallow Mire exists solely to rescue 5-6 Inquisition soldiers, hardly worth the leader of the Inquisition's time, seems more like it should have existed in the form of an operation. 

I believe that for you this is not really a question of whether or not your goal is made clear in certain areas but one that questions the implementation and relevance of said areas ? if its the latter then i cant really argue since it all comes to personal preferences the former however was done well imo.

[Vyndral]

What do you mean you dont know ? You are there to run to the Gold !. Then run to the gold diamonds. You will know you have done this right by the magical completetion noise you get and or the awesome +1 of goodedness!

I can certainly see why you feel that way. Most the quest are so dumb and generic and arent related to anything but in the most general sense of gain moar powah! It is like they realized most the quest had nothing to so with anything, so most people would never do them. So they came up with locking things behind power requirements so you would atleast be forced into doing some of them. And some of the players might feel like they were doing something meaningful since a number somewhere was going up.

[OriginalTibs]

Dude, I could read about places aswell in DA:O, a dairy or codex entries is not something that DA:I has invented. The point is, that even if there are some quest givers inside the locations, they are made so inovative that I almost felt like playing World of Warcraft, first time when I´ve seen that great feature - walk out of conversation, I knew that there is rather something fishy about it. I believe that context of locations doesn´t require to be tied to the main quest, but it requires for single player RPG context and interaction with certain location, which creator already managed to do back in DA:O.

Your ability to read what Casuist was saying clarifies your problem. And it is your problem, not the Game's. If you don't 'get' why the protagonist has to attend to details to achieve a desirable ultimate outcome in the plot (regardless of whether you can take shortcuts and still get to the endgame) then DA:I is simply too complicated for you. I know that to resolve the plot I must attend to details. If my objective is only to get the game over with I don't have to bother with details like picking elf root. I just eject the disk and uninstall. Simple. Because if I'm not intending to play the game intelligently, then I shouldn't play the game. Simple. If you don't 'get' why you would play the game, why are you playing the game?

[Casuist]

Dude, I could read about places aswell in DA:O, a dairy or codex entries is not something that DA:I has invented. The point is, that even if there are some quest givers inside the locations, they are made so inovative that I almost felt like playing World of Warcraft, first time when I´ve seen that great feature - walk out of conversation, I knew that there is rather something fishy about it. I believe that context of locations doesn´t require to be tied to the main quest, but it requires for single player RPG context and interaction with certain location, which creator already managed to do back in DA:O.

 

The question is that why is BioWare trying always to do something so-called inovative, rather than to stick with something what´s already working. And I think that I know the answer, it´s simple, it´s budget and time which they are buying by cutting precious pieces out of game to be able to finish it, even if it means overall decrease of quality. 

 

Yes... what defines "story" and "not story" is whether the camera is cutscene-bound or over-the shoulder third person. How silly of me to ever think otherwise.

 

There is a ton of dialogue-based story exposition in DA:I. There is also a lot of text-based exposition, some of which was missed by some commenters in this thread. Helpfully, I thought I'd point out what was missed, in case people would like to track it down in future playthroughs, or if knowing helps someone make sense of a confusing aspect of the plot.

 

Enjoy beating down your strawman.

[Hazegurl]

I agree OP. I could certainly come up with rpg reasons to be in each area with the info given to me but ultimately I didn't see the urgent need to do any of it. Take Wicked Eyes and Hearts, the Inquisitor has a clear purpose for attending court. You must save Celene or aid Gaspard or both. You have an active reason for being there and what you do can shape the course of future events. That is good storytelling.

 

Sure the other zones have "Establish camps and gain a stronghold on the area" reasons. But what else? How does me gaining a strong hold in this area aid the Inquisition? What do we get out of it? Why should I waste my time fighting Red Templar and Venatori skirmishes when I can send Cullen's soldiers to do this? Why couldn't Cullen's soldiers aid the Orlesans in recapturing their areas? Why me? Yeah I can close rifts but most of that was break a barrier and burn the bodies. I have some mages and a Templar army, they could have done that.

[OriginalTibs]

Sure the other zones have "Establish camps and gain a stronghold on the area" reasons. But what else? How does me gaining a strong hold in this area aid the Inquisition? What do we get out of it? Why should I waste my time fighting Red Templar and Venatori skirmishes when I can send Cullen's soldiers to do this? Why couldn't Cullen's soldiers aid the Orlesans in recapturing their areas? Why me? Yeah I can close rifts but most of that was break a barrier and burn the bodies. I have some mages and a Templar army, they could have done that.

Then you should appoint Cullen the Inquisitor since your time is too valuable to secure your economic and political base and assist the people who are the source of your political and military power.

[Gaz83]

I think a lot of the story disconnect comes from the fact you can come and go from said areas on a whim.

 

Given the alternative - complete everything in one go, or miss out - I think it's worth sacrificing some immersion. 

[Vyndral]

You're ability to read what Casuist was saying clarifies your problem. And it is your problem, not the Game's.

Of course it is his problem, that is why he made the thread. But it is also not only his problem. I have seen lots of people say the same thing. But I do agree it is easier to imagine they are just playing the game wrong.

[errantknight]

Let me start with the standard disclaimers:  I generally liked the game.  I appreciate the responsiveness to DA2 criticism.  And I've gotten a 70 hour playthrough out of it, so I feel like I got my money's worth.  So please no "BioWare can never do right, no matter how much they give you" arguments.  This is constructive criticism.
 
That said, I probably won't play DAI again any time soon, because there was no sense of purpose behind the places.  Having lots of open areas is nice, but the question I kept coming back to was, "Why am I here again?"  Epic dramas require clear motivations.  If you can't, within five seconds, explain why the protagonist is doing what she's doing, the motivation part has gone off the rails and you're in danger of losing the audience.  In the particular context of an adventure story, you have to be able to understand what the main character is doing in a particular place.
 
Consider DAO as a model.  At any given time, it was very easy to explain the Warden's purpose in a given place.  If you are in Redcliffe, you are trying to get into the castle to the Arl, so he can help fight the blight.  The vast majority of subsidiary tasks (preparing the villagers for battle with the undead, dealing with the tavern owner who won't help, etc.) are directly tied --through clear, tightly-written dialogue--to that main purpose.  So you never forget why you are in Redcliffe.  Or the Brecilian Forest.  Or the tower.  Even in Orzammar, which I grant went on too long, you can always tie every action back to a simple, urgent motive:  "I have to get a king in place so he can help us fight the blight."  No matter how far down the deep roads I go, I know why I'm there.  MA2 and MA3 also generally got this right.  I know why I'm on Palaven's moon, on Tuchanka, etc.  
 
DAI did a poor job on this front.  Most of the areas were introduced by a text-only explanation at the war table, followed by the same perfunctory exposition from Harding:  "Welcome to [region of the country], Inquisitor.  It sure is [wet/dry/woodsy/dangerous] here.  And there's a faction you'll need to fight for some reason.  I think they were mining, or drafted into a war or something. Anyway, they're pissed, so watch out."  And at that point, the drama drops away and this (often beautiful) landscape goes from being a stage for a great story to being a level.  You're there because this is a video game and you need mooks to fight to grind experience and/or unlock something else.
 
Bottom line: DAO felt like a grand story on an average-looking stage.  DAI felt like a game with beautiful levels.  I'll take the former, please.

While I loved the game and am replaying it, this makes a good point. I often felt that there wasn't enough of a personal touch to quest giving most of the time. Honestly, the recent swtor expansion has the same issue. Questgiving is cursory and lacking in dialogue. It worked fairly well in the hinterlands, and Emprise du Lyon because there was a stong story that tied directly into the main one, but there were other places where after playing on a map for a few days, I totally forgot why I was there. I had no real connection or sense of urgency about the quests.

That being said, I did feel urgency about closing the rifts and getting enough power to take on the big bad. It made the whole game a tad meta. My inquisitor cared about the end goal more than most of the quests. I think they need to go back to more interaction with the questgivers to increase the feeling of connection. Not having that made it feel kinda like dailies.

[OriginalTibs]

Of course it is his problem, that is why he made the thread. But it is also not only his problem. I have seen lots of people say the same thing. But I do agree it is easier to imagine they are just playing the game wrong.

Indeed it is easier to think so, and it also seems more likely to me. I have also seen several people with similar complaints but I also see many who, like me, don't have that problem. My suspicion is that the cause might be related to whether the player also enjoys reading fiction, has an intuitive or even trained understanding of plot, character, and setting. It might be significantly related to understanding politics or economics. I think it is certain that if a player buys the game wanting a fantasy version of GTA they are not likely to be thrilled. If they came to DA:I expecting a different game they will be disappointed. Is the mismatch between their expectation something they are responsible for, or is it something Bioware is responsible for?

 

On the one hand you can play the game that has been created. On the other hand you can try to play some other game in a game environment intended for a very different game. Where does the responsibility lie? Is it the fault of the beach that a fish cannot swim out of water?

[H. Birdman]

You're ability to read what Casuist was saying clarifies your problem. And it is your problem, not the Game's. If you don't 'get' why the protagonist has to attend to details to achieve a desirable ultimate outcome in the plot (regardless of whether you can take shortcuts and still get to the endgame) then DA:I is simply too complicated for you. I know that to resolve the plot I must attend to details. If my objective is only to get the game over with I don't have to bother with details like picking elf root. I just eject the disk and uninstall. Simple. Because if I'm not intending to play the game intelligently, then I shouldn't play the game. Simple. If you don't 'get' why you would play the game, why are you playing the game?

 

Really?  We're going to go down the "if you don't like everything in the game, then you're dumb and shouldn't play it" road?  Okay.  Whatever.  Clearly you have a lot of emotional capital invested here.  So I'll just concede that I'm dumb and the game is awesome.  Feel better?

[Iakus]

I just wish the stories for each area were longer and not just 'go capture these camps to take back this place'

I'm inclined to agree.

 

A couple of areas like Crestwood and Fallow Mire were done pretty well.  But for the most part the area storylines were pretty thin.

 

I mean, once Imshael was dead I felt little reason to go back to Emprise du Lion.

[Vilegrim]

You're ability to read what Casuist was saying clarifies your problem. And it is your problem, not the Game's. If you don't 'get' why the protagonist has to attend to details to achieve a desirable ultimate outcome in the plot (regardless of whether you can take shortcuts and still get to the endgame) then DA:I is simply too complicated for you. I know that to resolve the plot I must attend to details. If my objective is only to get the game over with I don't have to bother with details like picking elf root. I just eject the disk and uninstall. Simple. Because if I'm not intending to play the game intelligently, then I shouldn't play the game. Simple. If you don't 'get' why you would play the game, why are you playing the game?

 

 

certainly not for the combat..or the controls..or the flag planting...

[H. Birdman]

My suspicion is that the cause might be related to whether the player also enjoys reading fiction, has an intuitive or even trained understanding of plot, character, and setting. It might be significantly related to understanding politics or economics. I think it is certain that if a player buys the game wanting a fantasy version of GTA they are not likely to be thrilled.

 

There's a difference between not understanding a piece of fiction and arguing it's poorly paced, weakly written, etc. I understand Moby Dick.  I didn't expect it to be Jaws.  But I also think its self-indulgent.  See how it's not a binary choice? To use the former as a straw man in a discussion about the latter, and to throw in some passive aggressive ad hominems based on speculation about someone you've never met?  Poor form.

[errantknight]

Oh, come on now. There's no reason to pull the 'you're too dumb for this' card. It's not like he didn't make a clear and succinct argument for how he felt. In going to a more open world, they *did* loose some of the dramatic build that characterizes the best stories because they lost control of when we did what and for how long. This is likely why there're disagreements about pacing. Those who stuck to the main quest with minimal sidequests, or only those that felt the most compelling probably found the pacing fine across the board and so didn't need something more to stay connected. Those who did each and every sidequest and talked to each and every person after every mission, likely lost track of why we were there to a greater degree.

Here's my suggestion, put cutscenes back in for receiving quests and put random events relating to the main story back in the game. That would increase the connection to bothe each side quest and the main plot, reminding us of exactly whey we're there. For next time I mean. This is a great game, but it could have been even better if some elements that were lost return.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

It depends on the area, but I actually thought some of them had far more decent side-quests for the Inquisitor than past Bioware games.
 
Hinterlands - Help the refugees to create a name for the Inquisition; put a term to the Mage & Templar conflict, kill scavengers and bandits taking advantage of the situation, feed and clothe the helpless. Overall there were some very strong story reasons for the Inquisitor to bother with this area. 
Storm Coast - Meet with the Chargers, take care of a bandit group who has been assaulting Inquisition forces along the coast, and later deal with Darkspawn/Red Templar activity. Not as engaging story wise, but valid strategic reason for the Inquisition to be there. 
Fallow Mire - Rescue capture Inquisition forces and confront hostile Aavar Tribe. Short and sweet. Seems like a valid use of the Inquisitor's time to secure the Inquisition's foothold in southern Ferelden.
Exalted Plains - Help subdue the Orlesian civil war, and save soldiers from relentless undead attacks due to the veil wearing thin due to the massive war casualties. Seems like an extremely important set of reasons for the Inquisition to be there. The undead risks spreading across Orlais, killing more than the civil war could if the Inquisition doesn't put a stop to it.
Western Approach - Put an end to the Venatori and Darkspawn activity in the region, secure a military foothold in western Orlais and confront the subdued Grey Wardens. This plays directly into the main story. 
Emprise du Lion - Stop the massive Red Templar mining activity in the area, and confront Ishmael to put an end to his machinations. The Inquisition gaining ground here prohibits the Elder One from using the lyrium to empower his troops. 
Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 
Forbidden Oasis - Sidequest central with the temple for the shards. 
Hissing Wastes - Neat little introspection into Dwarven history, kind of a nod at ancient egyptian archeology. Definitely filler. 
 
Obviously there was some questionable quests here and there (Lord Woosley and the Lost Druffalo, anyone?) but overall I think Bioware put some decent thought into the reasons why the Inquisition would bother being present in those areas.

That's great, but barely any of those objectives matter end-game. Thus making me say.. "Why am I doing this?"

[OriginalTibs]

Oh, come on now. There's no reason to pull the 'you're too dumb for this' card.

You have a point, he did earn better. And I apologize, my response was unworthy of me.

 

Sometimes life is a beach.

 

I was browsing through videos and while watching the Mage quest into the future recalled that while interminably wandering the Hinterlands I too felt some of what the OP described. In that video I saw some of what my Inquisitor was fighting to prevent. I heard the epithet of Liliana, wonderful Liliana. I see the game now through eyes I did not have in the Hinterlands before that story segment. I failed to understand well enough what the complaint of the OP was.

 

Yet still, even now, I cannot give my imagination to someone any more effectively than I can write. I can only recommend that if the OP has not played through the mage side then do so, because it brought my Inquisitor to understand that even the constant gathering of elfroot is worth it if it prevents such suffering and such a catastrophe.

[OriginalTibs]

There's a difference between not understanding a piece of fiction and arguing it's poorly paced, weakly written, etc. I understand Moby Dick.  I didn't expect it to be Jaws.  But I also think its self-indulgent.  See how it's not a binary choice? To use the former as a straw man in a discussion about the latter, and to throw in some passive aggressive ad hominems based on speculation about someone you've never met?  Poor form.

I think it would be challenging to adequately control plot development when the reader does not follow the tale, but skips around reading the chapters out of order, don't you?

 

Yet if they did so control plot development it would be a ride on rails, exactly what was complained of in DA2.

[Iakus]

That's great, but barely any of those objectives matter end-game. Thus making me say.. "Why am I doing this?"

 

It doesn't have to matter end-game.  It just has to feel like it matters.

 

Re-establishing Crestwood as a village and trade hub feels like it matters, for example.  Rescuing captured soldiers feels like it matters.  And so on.

[OriginalTibs]

That's great, but barely any of those objectives matter end-game. Thus making me say.. "Why am I doing this?"

They would matter greatly if in the end game your efforts failed.

 

We may consider that all effort to prevent disaster are useless when the disaster doesn't happen. Withiin a disaster we can evaluate all the details we might have done to avert it.

[H. Birdman]

I think it would be challenging to adequately control plot development when the reader does not follow the tale, but skips around reading the chapters out of order, don't you?

 

Yet if they did so control plot development it would be a ride on rails, exactly what was complained of in DA2.

 

It is indeed challenging.  I wouldn't make this complaint to an indie developer.  But this is BioWare and they've done it before, without making it feel like an on-rails story.  I think a few years ago Gaider (or maybe somebody else) wrote a really good piece about balancing freedom with pacing, and hiding the seams where you had to take the player in a particular direction. 

 

One possibility:  have fewer, bigger major areas/conflicts, and invest a lot of time setting up the conflict in each one. Then, let the player have some freedom in getting the area/conflict resolved, but tie things back together with a set conclusion (maybe with some variables based on side-quests) at the end of the act. For an example, look at the Quarian/Geth part of ME3.  It takes you to multiple, diverse areas.  You have some choice as to the order you do them in -- and for some, whether you do them at all.  And there's a major decision point at the end, with the outcome based partly on prior actions.  Granted, ME by its nature has less freedom to roam, but I don't think the roaming would hurt the feeling of motivation and urgency if it were framed by clear pillars defining the conflict.

 

Absolutely, doing something like that is hard.  But that's what makes BioWare different from --and in many ways, better than-- pure open-world sandbox developers like Bethesda.