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DAI and the problem of "Why am I here, again?"


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#51
Vyndral

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I think it would be challenging to adequately control plot development when the reader does not follow the tale, but skips around reading the chapters out of order, don't you?
 
Yet if they did so control plot development it would be a ride on rails, exactly what was complained of in DA2.


It isnt just the jumping around even if you dont jump around here is what you get.

Enter zone. Fred and Bill are fighting! Stop them before they destroy the castle!
Ok im on board with that! Lets get started!

Hey can you deliver this letter? Scuse me have soo seen my wife? Hey granny has a runny nose can you help her? Have you seen my drudfalo? I think there was a mage over in that house. Can you see anything in this skull? Wonder where this cave goes? That wolf looks extra mean. Should we put A flag here? Hey look a wine bottle. Someone stole something maybe we can find it. Hey a prophet wonder what she is up to. Why are there templars here?

It isnt that the plots on any of those things are hard. Or that im jumping around, it is that none of those things have anything to do with the reason im in the area. And out side of the general sense of 'expanding my base' they are completely unrelated to each other. So since they arent connected to anything at all when you finally get the points to move on, you do. Since the crap left isnt connnected to the over all story I dont feel invested in it so I dont care if granny gets a nasty head cold.

I guess maybe what i miss is a sense of progression. In skyrim they had an army of quest that meant nothing. But i did them because of stat increases or the feeling that i might get something cool around the next corner. Here i get a +1 and told to move on. So very lame.
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#52
Uhh.. Jonah

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It doesn't have to matter end-game.  It just has to feel like it matters.
 
Re-establishing Crestwood as a village and trade hub feels like it matters, for example.  Rescuing captured soldiers feels like it matters.  And so on.


I agree on those parts, but those occurrences are very rare in the game.

#53
Corto81

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Let me start with the standard disclaimers:  I generally liked the game.  I appreciate the responsiveness to DA2 criticism.  And I've gotten a 70 hour playthrough out of it, so I feel like I got my money's worth.  So please no "BioWare can never do right, no matter how much they give you" arguments.  This is constructive criticism.

 

That said, I probably won't play DAI again any time soon, because there was no sense of purpose behind the places.  Having lots of open areas is nice, but the question I kept coming back to was, "Why am I here again?"  Epic dramas require clear motivations.  If you can't, within five seconds, explain why the protagonist is doing what she's doing, the motivation part has gone off the rails and you're in danger of losing the audience.  In the particular context of an adventure story, you have to be able to understand what the main character is doing in a particular place.

 

Consider DAO as a model.  At any given time, it was very easy to explain the Warden's purpose in a given place.  If you are in Redcliffe, you are trying to get into the castle to the Arl, so he can help fight the blight.  The vast majority of subsidiary tasks (preparing the villagers for battle with the undead, dealing with the tavern owner who won't help, etc.) are directly tied --through clear, tightly-written dialogue--to that main purpose.  So you never forget why you are in Redcliffe.  Or the Brecilian Forest.  Or the tower.  Even in Orzammar, which I grant went on too long, you can always tie every action back to a simple, urgent motive:  "I have to get a king in place so he can help us fight the blight."  No matter how far down the deep roads I go, I know why I'm there.  MA2 and MA3 also generally got this right.  I know why I'm on Palaven's moon, on Tuchanka, etc.  

 

DAI did a poor job on this front.  Most of the areas were introduced by a text-only explanation at the war table, followed by the same perfunctory exposition from Harding:  "Welcome to [region of the country], Inquisitor.  It sure is [wet/dry/woodsy/dangerous] here.  And there's a faction you'll need to fight for some reason.  I think they were mining, or drafted into a war or something. Anyway, they're pissed, so watch out."  And at that point, the drama drops away and this (often beautiful) landscape goes from being a stage for a great story to being a level.  You're there because this is a video game and you need mooks to fight to grind experience and/or unlock something else.

 

Bottom line: DAO felt like a grand story on an average-looking stage.  DAI felt like a game with beautiful levels.  I'll take the former, please.

 

I very much agree with the post, and IMO the solutions to this were fairly simple:

 

- make an open world truly open world - meaning zones adjust to your level, no level-restricted loot etc.

This was a semi-open world game, where the game wants you to go a certain way, and discourages you from truly going to any zone you like until you are at the appropriate level.

Combine that with a "fake", "cardboard" world (NPCs don't move or walk or talk or do stuff, no day-night cycle, no item-interaction, non-reactive world, etc.) it just feels like they saw Skyrim and wanted to take certain elements, without truly realizing WHY it works in the TES games.

It doesn't feel like a world in which people exist and you just happen to be there too.

It feels like a fake world specifically design for your character to quest in.

 

- give a clear, important "zone story line" which somehow matters in the end - doesn't have to be much, but in some way your efforts should be visible

(then maybe the end quest is something like the Battle of Denerim, more zones done means more troops, less casualties, etc)

 

- real-time War Table missions are a time-sink, and they should've thought of some better way for the player to simply not do all of them in one visit (maybe each mission costs 1 Power or something)

 

...

 

To be clear, I enjoyed the wilderness exploration if I happened to hit on a level-appropriate zone.

But the sense of urgency or mission was rarely there, and it was especially present in the "fake" cities and castles and villages.


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#54
Hazegurl

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Then you should appoint Cullen the Inquisitor since your time is too valuable to secure your economic and political base and assist the people who are the source of your political and military power.

Nice try, but those quests are grunt work plain and simple.  That's like saying King Alistair should have been the PC in Awakening. That would make no sense (if he was made King) because he had important alliances to go forge, not grunt around killing bandits and darkspawn in Armarinthine.



#55
OriginalTibs

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It isnt that the plots on any of those things are hard. Or that im jumping around, it is that none of those things have anything to do with the reason im in the area. And out side of the general sense of 'expanding my base' they are completely unrelated to each other. So since they arent connected to anything at all when you finally get the points to move on, you do. Since the crap left isnt connnected to the over all story I dont feel invested in it so I dont care if granny gets a nasty head cold.

I guess maybe what i miss is a sense of progression. In skyrim they had an army of quest that meant nothing. But i did them because of stat increases or the feeling that i might get something cool around the next corner. Here i get a +1 and told to move on. So very lame.

This is why I think Sara, irritating though she can be, is an integral and necessary character for the Inquisitor. Sara recognizes the importance of the 99% even to world-class characters like the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor (at least mine) doesn't change all that much. What changes is the support the Inquisitor gains from the people, and then from other world powers. The inquisitor gains support because he or she does things for the little guys as well as, probably more than, for the big guys. That support, building solid alliances even where they seem of miniscule importance, just because they were the right thing to do, whether or not they had a direct and evident payoff, is what cements the optimal outcomes of the end game. I'd go so far as to say that if the Inquisitor did not care whether there was an perceivable return on investment, but instead did the right thing because it was the right thing, then the outcome will be more optimal than if the Inquisitor were a jerk like almost all the other jerk nobility. The inquisitor would say more than 'what' while the friend of Red Jenny had a bead on his left eye and a taut bowstring.



#56
Vyndral

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This is why I think Sara, irritating though she can be, is an integral and necessary character for the Inquisitor. Sara recognizes the importance of the 99% even to world-class characters like the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor (at least mine) doesn't change all that much. What changes is the support the Inquisitor gains from the people, and then from other world powers. The inquisitor gains support because he or she does things for the little guys as well as, probably more than, for the big guys. That support, building solid alliances even where they seem of miniscule importance, just because they were the right thing to do, whether or not they had a direct and evident payoff, is what cements the optimal outcomes of the end game. I'd go so far as to say that if the Inquisitor did not care whether there was an perceivable return on investment, but instead did the right thing because it was the right thing, then the outcome will be more optimal than if the Inquisitor were a jerk like almost all the other jerk nobility. The inquisitor would say more than 'what' while the friend of Red Jenny had a bead on his left eye and a taut bowstring.


Interesting point. But also keep in mind the reason Sera joins you. She wants the world returned to normal so money starts flowing again and she can get a better return on her investment.
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#57
OriginalTibs

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Interesting point. But also keep in mind the reason Sera joins you. She wants the world returned to normal so money starts flowing again and she can get a better return on her investment.

And isn't that just like maybe 99% of the 99%?



#58
elrofrost

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What do you mean you dont know ? You are there to run to the Gold !. Then run to the gold diamonds. You will know you have done this right by the magical completetion noise you get and or the awesome +1 of goodedness!

I can certainly see why you feel that way. Most the quest are so dumb and generic and arent related to anything but in the most general sense of gain moar powah! It is like they realized most the quest had nothing to so with anything, so most people would never do them. So they came up with locking things behind power requirements so you would atleast be forced into doing some of them. And some of the players might feel like they were doing something meaningful since a number somewhere was going up.

BW also used the environment to lock you out. Come across a bridge or a wall of rock, blocking an area you need to get to and what does it take? Porting back to the War Room and selecting a mission that takes an hour of REAL TIME! Are you freaking kidding me? I've spent 3 hours clearing out a zone, only to run across this? What? I'm suppose to hang around Skyhold? Or maybe go to another zone and come back? And this scenario is in multiple zones. I STILL can't believe they did that. 

 

The only other game I know of that uses real time is the MMO Eve (an amazing game I played for years, by the way). I complained about this a couple of weeks ago on these forums and someone suggested, "just change your system clock"? LOL. What? I have to change my system clock to get this game moving along? LOL.

You know, I feel sorry for us gamers. Cause we are not getting our monies worth. The crap that we excuse just blows my mind. And yet, here I am. And there I'll be buying the next game. All hoping that some studio gets it right.



#59
berrieh

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Some are saying the purpose is, "To expand influence.  To do statecraft.  To grow power."  And yes, you're right.  That is the hand wave that BioWare uses to gloss over the lack of a more immediate motivation.

 

I mean, that's the over-arching purpose. But you can have a sense of moment-to-moment purpose if you roleplay.

 

Take my last playthrough.

 

I was a Qunari mage. I just wanted to close the stupid breach and get the hell out of there, at first, I'm no Andrastian. But then I saw some stuff, and I started to feel bad for the people in the Hinterlands. Initially, I went to the Hinterlands to find Mother Giselle because I was told I needed to make the Inquisition known so I could get an audience with factions. She was so reasonable about magic that I stayed to do extra quests because I cared about the refugees plight. Maybe I did the other quests I ran into along the way, maybe I didn't, depending on my whim, but the primary "story" of the area is the refugees and I can help them - because it's right, because it spreads the Inquisition, because I hate war - or not help them. It's not required. It's optional. That's part of the point.

 

I went to the Fallow Mire to find my missing soldiers. Because I care about my people and nobody fucks with the Inquisition. Also, they challenged me directly, and I don't back down from a challenge. Pride, y'all. I closed rifts because demons pouring out of rifts is bad for Thedas, I found notes by an apostate and investigated it (or not, in some playthroughs). 

 

There are reasons, but yes, you have to actually roleplay. There is also reactivity. People in the Hinterlands say happier things, and people at Skyhold talk about the refugees, and so forth, if you clear out certain things and do certain quests. You get agents. Etcetera. It's not required for end-game, but that doesn't mean it "doesn't matter" or "I have no reason to do it." Mechanically, it gives you XP, Power, Influence, and story wise there is some reactivity. (Could there be more? Sure. I hope there is next time. It's a good start, but I could see it improved even more, absolutely.)

 

I don't get the "I don't know what's going on" issue because every single zone gives you multiple ways to figure out what's going on. The Orlesian Civil War is mentioned dozens of times before Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts, at least. Maybe people who don't know about the books (I've read Masked Empire) don't realize it, but even in those zones, people will tell you what's going on. There are certain aspects you have to read missives for, etc, but that is a good thing to me, not a bad thing. I like when I can actually be a part of discovering the story. 

 

This sort of story exposition likely could have been enhanced by cutscene discussions after the event (say, with any of the 3 advisers) but being able to dig it up yourself along the way is a good, subtle way to reveal aspects of the plot rather than being beaten over the head with plot background (some of which your character should not yet be aware of) at the beginning of each area. 

 

I mean, more advisor cut scenes would definitely be good and maybe it would help those who don't like the reading. (To me, having me read it isn't lazy - it's a different type of storytelling - but I guess people don't like to read. It is cheaper and allows for more combat if written, instead of a full-on cutscene. Voice acting and animation cost a lot compared to text. But I'd rather have more story, and some of it be text, than only get what can be voiced.) 

 

Take for example the Venatori searching the tevinter ruins in the western approach. It was just sortof there and you only find out about it because you try to get rid of some darkspawn, that apparently harrass you troops a little. Which agains throws up the question why i have to do it when i have an entire castle full of troops nearby but whatever. 

They could have, for example, put it together with the one ruin with the time magic gone wrong in it. While you travel somewhere, a group of venatori spawns and attacks you with time magic, as long as your in the level range for the western approach. You then find some magical artifacts on them that reveal that they were found in the tevinter ruins in the wester approach. When you reach the western approach you find out that the venatori closed of the entrances and you have to find another way, by capturing the nearby keep as a powerfull outpust. This would also give you a reason to capture that keep besides "Because It's there".

 

Well, you know about the Venatori in the area before the Darkspawn, because you capture the Keep from them. 

Then, there is a Darkspawn problem at the Keep. 

So, you try to fix that problem (which requires multiple steps) and eventually find the reason the Darkspawn are pouring out of the area is because the Venatori were excavating. 

 

To me, all of that made perfect sense, and the use of giants was a nice little surprise. (Though you find a note about it early in the dungeon, if you search everywhere, before you see the Giant - I saw the Giant first.) 

 

I love the Silent dungeon as well.

 

To me, those areas had great story, lore, and interest. I thought they were very well done and they were some of my most intriguing moments in the game. 

 

As to a "reason" to capture the Keep. You're given a reason already to hate the Venatori, so why wouldn't you capture any stronghold of theirs you came across? I mean, if you have a reason not to....then don't. That's the great thing about this game. So much is optional and you can play it different ways and still complete it. 

 

That's great, but barely any of those objectives matter end-game. Thus making me say.. "Why am I doing this?"

 

I do get this point of view. I just don't agree with it per se. I don't think everything has to matter end-game - if it does, then you just have a linear story, not an open world. It would be cool if more Power = Something later or if the War Table quests did more for reactivity. But I don't want to be forced back into a linear story like DA:O, personally. I much prefer this form of storytelling. 


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#60
elrofrost

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That's great, but barely any of those objectives matter end-game. Thus making me say.. "Why am I doing this?"

And you know that's it right there. As soon as you figure this out, you wonder why you are running and jumping all over the place. Fun? Okay, that's a damn good reason. But much in this game is frustration. Not the main quest, though I wish the final battle was a lot more climatic. I mean, Cory dies fast. And his dragon - I've ran across bears in the game that gave me more trouble. Anyway, the main quest got most right. I enjoyed all of it.

 

It's the other stuff. The personal quests, some of those are fun. But man - so we talking maybe 30% of the game? The rest is meaningless filler. Designed to make you think you actually played a 100+ hour game. Which you did.. but you could've played it in 16 hours. Now if the various zones and side quests (and basically there are 2 types; fetch/collection and capture the flag) related in any way to the main story, or even the end game battles that would be something. But they don't. At all.

The other thing is the combat - terrible. And this is true on PC and PS4. Though the PC is far worse due to controls. The game is playable but depending on class, it's barely playable (try a dual-handed rogue). That's what I liked about DA2. The combat... it was fun. Sure the reuse of the environment sucked, but the combat was fun. And the story was decent. So I overlooked DA2's shortcomings. .

 

I might not mind so much running these sides quest if the combat was fun. I'd treat it like i was playing Shadows of Mordor (good game by the way). I hope BW fixes the various issues with combat and controls. 

So if the combat has issues, and the side quests are the same in every zone what do you have left? Story. Right now, most of the zones don't have  a story. It's "go kill these guys and oh, and by the way collect bear pelts, claim these properties and close these rifts along the way please". That pretty much sums up most of the zones.

But one thing  BW did get right - and that's the graphics. My 2nd play-through is just for sight seeing. And running quests lines that are known to be good . 



#61
errantknight

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Regarding the idea that going totally open world would fix any pacing or involvement issues, I think that's the opposite of true. You can't build a strong narrative if you can do the chapters in any order you want. You can't pace a story building to a conclusion if you can skip all over the place. The idea of having a more explorable world is great, but if anything, we should have less opportunity to pick our order, not more, and more of a reason to completely explore each area before moving on.

#62
berrieh

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The other thing is the combat - terrible. And this is true on PC and PS4. Though the PC is far worse due to controls. The game is playable but depending on class, it's barely playable (try a dual-handed rogue). That's what I liked about DA2. The combat... it was fun. Sure the reuse of the environment sucked, but the combat was fun. And the story was decent. So I overlooked DA2's shortcomings. .

 

I might not mind so much running these sides quest if the combat was fun. I'd treat it like i was playing Shadows of Mordor (good game by the way). I hope BW fixes the various issues with combat and controls. 

 

This is a matter of perspective too, though. I'm not invalidating your experience - you dislike the combat. But that doesn't mean it's bad. To me, it's the best Dragon Age combat yet. (I liked Shadow of Mordor combat too, but a lot of people hated the combat in THAT game. So this is true of a lot of games.) I really enjoy it. I liked DA2 combat too - don't particularly care for DA:O combat (find it grindy, not engaging, but I didn't hate it) - and enjoy DA:I more. I really liked the 2-handed rogue, which is always my starting class and was my first playthrough. It's not particularly balanced in terms of being as powerful as some of the other classes, but I found it ridiculously fun and often switch and play Cole even when I'm on another Inquisitor. 

 

But I play with controller, and I will only play with controller. (I have tried DA:O with Keyboard, because I do like mods and PC has no controller support and the controller mods people made are ****. But I think I only finished it on 360/console due to this.) So I am not hindered by the Keyboard controls, which are the primary complaint, I think. So maybe that's what you mean. 



#63
Father_Jerusalem

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BW also used the environment to lock you out. Come across a bridge or a wall of rock, blocking an area you need to get to and what does it take? Porting back to the War Room and selecting a mission that takes an hour of REAL TIME! Are you freaking kidding me? I've spent 3 hours clearing out a zone, only to run across this? What? I'm suppose to hang around Skyhold? Or maybe go to another zone and come back? And this scenario is in multiple zones. I STILL can't believe they did that. 

 

The only other game I know of that uses real time is the MMO Eve (an amazing game I played for years, by the way). I complained about this a couple of weeks ago on these forums and someone suggested, "just change your system clock"? LOL. What? I have to change my system clock to get this game moving along? LOL.

You know, I feel sorry for us gamers. Cause we are not getting our monies worth. The crap that we excuse just blows my mind. And yet, here I am. And there I'll be buying the next game. All hoping that some studio gets it right.

 

No, you haven't. Any of that type of area takes power to unlock, not time. If you have the power, it unlocks instantly. Please don't lie. It doesn't help your case.

 

Also, given that I've beaten the Archdemon in DAO without ever using any of the armies I spent the game gathering, I have to question what the point of going to those areas was. If those choices didn't matter end-game, why couldn't I just go to Denerim and stab the Archdemon with my sword as soon as I'm done with Ostagar?


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#64
Chrom72

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I think some areas got it right, but others were a bit too vague for my taste. A big part of the problem is that too many of the areas are entirely optional, and the ones that aren't often only have a very small presence for the main questline. Take Crestwood. All you really have to do there is meet Alistair/Loghain/Stroud. That's it. You can leave Crestwood after that and never have any reason to go back. Same on the Western Approach. Meet Hawke and *insert Warden here* at the tower thing and that's all you have to do. 

 

I think a little bit more effort could have been put into the major quest lines and less on some of the sidequests. The ratio is just a tad off for my tastes in that regard. I'd rather see a 2-1 ratio of sidequest-mainquest than the 3-1 or 4-1 ratio we have. 



#65
elrofrost

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No, you haven't. Any of that type of area takes power to unlock, not time. If you have the power, it unlocks instantly. Please don't lie. It doesn't help your case.

 

Also, given that I've beaten the Archdemon in DAO without ever using any of the armies I spent the game gathering, I have to question what the point of going to those areas was. If those choices didn't matter end-game, why couldn't I just go to Denerim and stab the Archdemon with my sword as soon as I'm done with Ostagar?

I just checked this and you are correct. i was confusing it with all the other missions in the War Room. But that fact I have to go back, run to the War Room, and access the missions when I shouldn't have to in the first place is still a time sink. And why? Why bother putting "barriers" in the first place?.

 

And about the combat - if BW fixed the PC controls (and I doubt they will anytime soon. I think it's gonna take a DLC), and added more slot bars (I mean why limit us to 8 and force us to select skills?) I might not mind running all the fetch quests.

 

Look, in the end, DAI is a good start. A lot depends on what BW does with it. We'll see.



#66
Sherbet Lemon

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I mean, that's the over-arching purpose. But you can have a sense of moment-to-moment purpose if you roleplay.

 

 

 

Which is kind of why I love this game.  Don't get me wrong, I roleplayed with all of the previous game, but this one didn't make me feel like I was doing something wrong by giving my Inquisitor the kind of backstory I wanted to give her.  I loved DAO and DA2 and I was able to create characters that worked within the world, but I found I was having to change and fit my character to match the game which I don't have a problem with at all.  I don't mind linearity.  I started out on linear rpgs and they remain my favorite.  I never even realized that I wanted that kind of flexibility until I had it.

 

I thought I would hate the lack of cutscenes, etc, but I found it allowed me freedom without sacrificing emotion, strong characters and strong ties to the world.  In the end, everything's not going to appeal to everyone.  



#67
Spirited Treasure

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I was excited about this game. I am a Morrigan and Flemeth fangirl. I have played the DA:O dozens of times both on pc and ps3. I did every possible Origin and every ending. I studied the lore , especially about my two favorite witches. I played DA:2 once for each side and just could not force myself to play again. I own both games on pc and on ps3.

DA:I feels to me a lot like Oblivion with the never ending gates that no one else cares about or closes. In yet another game I own on two platforms and no longer do the main quest because it ruins the world. Ditto Skyrim, where I have mods to stop the forced quests. (Like when you speak to someone, then exit dialog without accepting any quest, read something or walk past someone making a statement.)
DA:I Killing Cory feels disconnected from the various areas and rifts and war table activities.
It does not seem to matter in the end which side I took, because I only see them briefly a couple of times.

It is unfortunate that I can not avoid the main quest in DA:I and just enjoy the world without endless rifts and monsters that will one hit kill me.

I am saddened by this. Also I am seeing Tali's cowel on Leliana and Aveline's outfit on the horse master's wife. The hairs are plastic blobs with alpha properties set far too high, armors are no variation on wearable ones. One or two meshes with different colors for wearable stuff. I know you can do better than this Bioware.

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#68
Catastrophy

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I like hiking.

I don't like "Do this - do that NOW!".

I like to things at my own pace.

I like to set some priorities myself. That's why I like more open worlded stuff in games. If I get lost about what to do I can always check the Quests and realign my priorities.

I only stick to a game if the gameplay is fun.

In general, DAI caters to these requirements.



#69
Casuist

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I'm curious about any alternative design of DA:I that could have increased the importance of the side areas.

 

I've stated previously in this thread that the addition of some modest dialogue could have improved the extent to which the side areas are perceived to link up with the main plot, so I'm certainly not claiming Bioware's treatment of Emerald Graves, Emprise, Hissing Wastes, etc. met my personal ideal, but some other complaints in this thread go a bit further.

 

-no connection to the ending in narrative or gameplay

-more overt connection to the main plot

-fewer barriers to regional unlocking

-more directed regional side plots

 

If you give the main plot a thorough run with companion quest content, reading codex entries, listening to dialogue fully, and explore those areas immediately within the range of quest objectives, it's easy to spend 50 hours on a playthrough. You can certainly finish more quickly than that if you choose to do so. Changing each of the side regions to a DA:O style side quest or tying the completion to the epilogue result fundamentally changes that calculation. If the game mechanics forced you to complete the Hissing Wastes, Emprise du Lion, etc. in order to achieve an optimal ending (think, for example, an ME3-style "forces" calculation) then a 100 hour playthrough is no longer a matter of choice for dedicated gamers, but rather a point of necessity for anyone experiencing the game. I don't think many people in this thread would object to forcing that time commitment (although it would likely cut down on the game's full replayability for me) but I expect many others would.

 

You can basically reduce DA:O to the following core story:

 

Prologue

Ostagar  

Broken Circle

Arl of Redcliffe

Urn of Sacred Ashes

Paragon of Her Kind

Nature of the Beast

Landsmeet

Battle of Denerim

 

and DA:I to....

 

Prologue/The Wrath of Heaven

The Threat Remains

In Hushed Whispers/Champions of the Just

In Your Heart Shall Burn

Here Lies The Abyss

Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts

What Pride Had Wrought

Doom Upon All the World

 

...or 8 major, unskippable story quests instead of 9 through a single playthrough... and that's setting aside some fairly substantial story exposition in The Final Piece or merging it with its neighboring quests. I think it's worth considering that tying more of the side areas into the main plot would have made the game potentially feel unnecessarily bloated. As it is, keeping those side regions optional is fairly reasonable.

 

That said, an epilogue slide acknowledging some of the extra completion would be welcome.

 

 


  • MonkeyLungs aime ceci

#70
berrieh

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Building on Casuist's idea, maybe what would help would be a sort of "Epilogue" for major things within the region. You sort of get this with the reactivity, but if it was in the form of a cut-scene, people might like it better. Like a cut scene of Crestwood celebrating the liberation from their troubles (dead, bandits) and throwing a Feast Day in the name of the Inquisition or something, where they are also commenting about the Mayor and asking how they can help. One local youth joins the Inquisition and you see him around Skyhold later and get small interactions with him, like some of the minor Skyhold NPCs. That type of stuff. Those would be relatively minor changes, but they might keep the "open world"/optional sense, while still giving a greater feeling of satisfaction for the side areas.

 

You could also have something bigger for collecting ALL the bottles or whatever  (I don't know if there's a scene, but I haven't heard of it). I don't know if that kind of stuff is feasible, but they seem like relatively small changes for the next game if they use the same engine and don't have to deal with the "new engine headaches." 

 

I just checked this and you are correct. i was confusing it with all the other missions in the War Room. But that fact I have to go back, run to the War Room, and access the missions when I shouldn't have to in the first place is still a time sink. And why? Why bother putting "barriers" in the first place?.

 

As to the why, I think it's the attempt of having your gameplay interact with the war table and your greater organization. It didn't bother me, like it did you (I go back to Skyhold frequently, or at least a camp or fort, as that helps me roleplay the passing of time) but I can see why people want a War Table at the forts or maybe some "main" camps in regions (the forts makes total sense - at least you should be able to access the adviser who matches the fort type) if they have long loading screens or something. I do not. So frequent returns don't bother me - I've never taken the inventory perks and never had inventory full either. I go back a lot. (I also really enjoy the War Table and all it's text and even enjoy the aspect of time in it, where time is required, though I think using Power to speed it up or circumvent some or all of the "time" requirements would make complete and total sense. I do love getting the message that my adviser is ready to report. Gives me something to look forward to. I wish who you picked mattered more on more missions - it does on some, but I love those so much I wish it was more!) 

 

I think they'll patch your PC controls without a DLC (they've said they will; whether it'll be what you want, we'll see). But not the 8 slot ability - that's a design decision that is basically fundamental to the game. Personally, I like it. It means sometimes I need to retreat and re-plan my skills, and for me, as a P&P/Tabletop RPG player with those sensibilities, that's a fun prospect. I like preparing spells and only having so many slots. Limits are fun for me. Again, not invalidating your dislike, just presenting that it's not a wholly bad design choice and that someone (like myself) might not just "not mind it" but actually enjoy it. It reminds me of real RPGs. 

 

DA:I feels to me a lot like Oblivion with the never ending gates that no one else cares about or closes. In yet another game I own on two platforms and no longer do the main quest because it ruins the world. Ditto Skyrim, where I have mods to stop the forced quests. (Like when you speak to someone, then exit dialog without accepting any quest, read something or walk past someone making a statement.)

 

I don't get this because the Fade Rifts do not re-open and quests, except requisitions (which aren't really quests and which make sense as "endless" - though they give no real incentive to do them since they only give Power; the lack of use for Power in the game is a flaw, I think), do not re-spawn or generate in any way. I hated the Oblivion gates because closing one didn't do anything; another just opened. But closing all the Fade rifts truly closes them. 


  • MonkeyLungs aime ceci

#71
Spirited Treasure

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It does truly close them and I hated those gates too after the first couple of times trying to do them and that main quest. The feeling to me is the same though, " there's a good lad/lass, go close that rift, off you go."

Its a beautitful world, I want to enjoy it. The only thing that makes it better than a gate is that it does not ruin the world.

#72
Shahadem

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Yes this brings up one of the biggest problems with the zone. They are completely pointless.So much of the zone feels like actual random filler for the sake of padding out the game.



#73
Vyndral

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I wouldnt even mind if the areas themselves had a theme.  Say the Storm Coast has its Red Lyrium Pirates and sellers.  What if a majority of the quest in that area focused on that.  The camps and enemies in the area were smugglers.  The quest revolved around breaking the supply chain.  Finding a way in through the caves, into the main shipping area.   Blah blah blah.

 

It isnt all focused on the Main quest.  But atleast it is connected tp the main idea and a majority in the area is connected to itself.  So when you are in an area you feel like you are working towards a goal.  Instead of one main quest in this area, ok done, bunch of random quest.  You could still have the companion quest and what not.

 


  • Tayah aime ceci

#74
Casuist

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I wouldnt even mind if the areas themselves had a theme.  Say the Storm Coast has its Red Lyrium Pirates and sellers.  What if a majority of the quest in that area focused on that.  The camps and enemies in the area were smugglers.  The quest revolved around breaking the supply chain.  Finding a way in through the caves, into the main shipping area.   Blah blah blah.

 

It isnt all focused on the Main quest.  But atleast it is connected tp the main idea and a majority in the area is connected to itself.  So when you are in an area you feel like you are working towards a goal.  Instead of one main quest in this area, ok done, bunch of random quest.  You could still have the companion quest and what not.

 

 

Fallow Mire, Storm Coast, Hinterlands, and to a lesser degree Forbidden Oasis all have a different sort of purpose and narrative linked to when they become accessible under the main plot - it's about establishing/strengthening the Inquisition and dealing with the early repercussions of doing so. The core regional plot for Storm Coast is what Harding introduces when you arrive- dealing with the Blades of Hessarian. I'd readily admit that particular subplot isn't particularly deep... but there's a very good reason why it doesn't involve red lyrium to a greater extent, as that's a plot element that isn't fully fleshed out until a bit later.

 

In terms of a core regional quest, Storm Coast may have the weakest one in the game apart from Forbidden Oasis.  



#75
Vyndral

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Fallow Mire, Storm Coast, Hinterlands, and to a lesser degree Forbidden Oasis all have a different sort of purpose and narrative linked to when they become accessible under the main plot - it's about establishing/strengthening the Inquisition and dealing with the early repercussions of doing so. The core regional plot for Storm Coast is what Harding introduces when you arrive- dealing with the Blades of Hessarian. I'd readily admit that particular subplot isn't particularly deep... but there's a very good reason why it doesn't involve red lyrium to a greater extent, as that's a plot element that isn't fully fleshed out until a bit later.
 
In terms of a core regional quest, Storm Coast may have the weakest one in the game apart from Forbidden Oasis.


I just threw the red lyrium out there to put it in. And while yes they all have a plot most of them suck. Take hinterlands. The mages and Templars are in open warfare, stop them! Ok I go to this camp, mages done. Go to this camp Templars done. The war is tearing this land apart! Two short fights later, done and done. It is crazy!
Now I will admit a whole lot of the quest in this area focus on the damage done by the two factions. But did stopping a fight no one else could get a grasp on have to be so flipping easy. Why no out lying encampments. No talking. No nothing. Just walk stab stab. Two fights and the main friction in the area is done. It silly.

And so many of the areas feel that way. Oh story of the area stop the black Knights? Short trip to thier camp, stab, stab. Done and done.