95 réponses à ce sujet

[Casuist]

I just threw the red lyrium out there to put it in. And while yes they all have a plot most of them suck. Take hinterlands. The mages and Templars are in open warfare, stop them! Ok I go to this camp, mages done. Go to this camp Templars done. The war is tearing this land apart! Two short fights later, done and done. It is crazy!
Now I will admit a whole lot of the quest in this area focus on the damage done by the two factions. But did stopping a fight no one else could get a grasp on have to be so flipping easy. Why no out lying encampments. No talking. No nothing. Just walk stab stab. Two fights and the main friction in the area is done. It silly.

And so many of the areas feel that way. Oh story of the area stop the black Knights? Short trip to thier camp, stab, stab. Done and done.

 

The mages and templars you meet in the Hinterlands are rogue elements of the factions, and you reveal pretty clear evidence on that point as you play (they also DO have outlying encampments... e.g. Fort Connor). The end of the mage/templar conflict doesn't come from the Hinterlands fights, but from the decisions surrounding Hushed Whispers/Champions of the Just and Corypheus' direct involvement.

 

"One camp" might be used to describe the Fallow Mire quest objective (or Storm Coast to a slightly lesser degree), but is a gross misrepresentation of every other region in the game (e.g. Emprise du Lion has several mining centers and a fort, Hissing Wastes several significant enemy camps, Emerald Graves 2 lieutenants with corresponding camps plus a boss in the main villa, etc...).

[Vyndral]

The mages and templars you meet in the Hinterlands are rogue elements of the factions, and you reveal pretty clear evidence on that point as you play (they also DO have outlying encampments... e.g. Fort Connor). The end of the mage/templar conflict doesn't come from the Hinterlands fights, but from the decisions surrounding Hushed Whispers/Champions of the Just and Corypheus' direct involvement.
 
"One camp" might be used to describe the Fallow Mire quest objective (or Storm Coast to a slightly lesser degree), but is a gross misrepresentation of every other region in the game (e.g. Emprise du Lion has several mining centers and a fort, Hissing Wastes several significant enemy camps, Emerald Graves 2 lieutenants with corresponding camps plus a boss in the main villa, etc...).

That doesn't really change the fact that the main part of the quest in the hinterlands is done in 2 minutes. You go there to talk to the mother. You walk in and the scout tells you of the mages and the Templars. 15 minutes later both those things are done. It doesn't matter that it is rogue elements, or that you can list in OTHER areas were there are more. In this area I have solved the crisis. You can wonder around the hinterlands doing quest for an hour or two. I would love to see more of that time connected meaningfully to either the main quest or the main plot line in the area. That is all I'm saying.

[Casuist]

 You can wonder around the hinterlands doing quest for an hour or two. I would love to see more of that time connected meaningfully to either the main quest or the main plot line in the area. That is all I'm saying.

 

Fair enough. I definitely agree with you on that point (though I could quibble that dealing with Dennet is also part of the core quest in the Hinterlands). "The Threat Remains" is, in my opinion, by far the weakest of the main story quests. I suppose the designers were treating it more or less as a second tutorial level (and a way to decompress from a pretty abrupt prologue story-wise) but that's not really a sufficient excuse for how jarring it is. The Hinterlands and that quest are pretty much set up to let you get your bearings and then get you on your way to Val Royeaux asap.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter that it is rogue elements, or that you can list in OTHER areas were there are more.

 

Uh... you were the one who said "so many of the areas feel that way."

[Vyndral]

Fair enough. I definitely agree with you on that point (though I could quibble that dealing with Dennet is also part of the core quest in the Hinterlands). "The Threat Remains" is, in my opinion, by far the weakest of the main story quests. I suppose the designers were treating it more or less as a second tutorial level (and a way to decompress from a pretty abrupt prologue story-wise) but that's not really a sufficient excuse for how jarring it is. The Hinterlands and that quest are pretty much set up to let you get your bearings and then get you on your way to Val Royeaux asap.
 

 
Uh... you were the one who said "so many of the areas feel that way."

I did say that. And the fact that there are mages in and Templars fighting in other places doesn't change the way those areas feel, because none of the other areas you go into is the main part of the area, deal with the Templar and Mage fighting here. So they actually become part of the problem in those areas. They are the quest taking away from the main feel of the area. Feeling like they are filler because they no longer connect with what we were told we needed to do in the area, or the main story quest we were sent to do.
Now honestly some over all fighting, like the mages and Templars is good it makes the areas feel connected, and with the way you teleport to them and the vast difference in looks, they need it. The problem is that there are so many off target quest already anything not on target gets added to the filler list.

Anyway this obviously is just my opinion. You are obviously much more into the lore of the areas, so maybe it doesn't seem as bad to you.

[LaughingBanana]

It depends on the area, but I actually thought some of them had far more decent side-quests for the Inquisitor than past Bioware games.

 

Hinterlands - Help the refugees to create a name for the Inquisition; put a term to the Mage & Templar conflict, kill scavengers and bandits taking advantage of the situation, feed and clothe the helpless. Overall there were some very strong story reasons for the Inquisitor to bother with this area. 

Storm Coast - Meet with the Chargers, take care of a bandit group who has been assaulting Inquisition forces along the coast, and later deal with Darkspawn/Red Templar activity. Not as engaging story wise, but valid strategic reason for the Inquisition to be there. 

Fallow Mire - Rescue capture Inquisition forces and confront hostile Aavar Tribe. Short and sweet. Seems like a valid use of the Inquisitor's time to secure the Inquisition's foothold in southern Ferelden.

Exalted Plains - Help subdue the Orlesian civil war, and save soldiers from relentless undead attacks due to the veil wearing thin due to the massive war casualties. Seems like an extremely important set of reasons for the Inquisition to be there. The undead risks spreading across Orlais, killing more than the civil war could if the Inquisition doesn't put a stop to it.

Western Approach - Put an end to the Venatori and Darkspawn activity in the region, secure a military foothold in western Orlais and confront the subdued Grey Wardens. This plays directly into the main story. 

Emprise du Lion - Stop the massive Red Templar mining activity in the area, and confront Ishmael to put an end to his machinations. The Inquisition gaining ground here prohibits the Elder One from using the lyrium to empower his troops. 

Emerald Graves -  I can't really think of a valid reason for the Inquisition's presence to be required. I guess there are civil war refugees here? Not very strong ties to the story. 

Forbidden Oasis - Sidequest central with the temple for the shards. 

Hissing Wastes - Neat little introspection into Dwarven history, kind of a nod at ancient egyptian archeology. Definitely filler. 

 

Obviously there was some questionable quests here and there (Lord Woosley and the Lost Druffalo, anyone?) but overall I think Bioware put some decent thought into the reasons why the Inquisition would bother being present in those areas.  

 

And yet, how many of those activities actually affect the ending? Our ultimate confrontation with Corypheus?

 

Nothing. Zip. Nada.

[CronoDragoon]

And yet, how many of those activities actually affect the ending? Our ultimate confrontation with Corypheus?
 
Nothing. Zip. Nada.

It uproots Corypheus's forces and sends him on the run to the Arbor Wilds, which is his last hope. You also only reach the Elven Ruins because your forces have been built up by the Power you gained expanding the Inquisition. Once he fails there his last ditch effort in Haven is understandable, given you've made it impossible for him to recuperate.

[l7986]

DA:I suffers from the one thing that Mass Effect 1 and 2 suffered from, no pressing need to do anything. Oh Coryphifish is trying to kill the Empress, well I'm sure he'll be a bro and wait till I get done pissing around the Hissing Wastes (they don't even hiss). Coryphifish is headed to the Arbor Wilds with his army, he's cool so he'll make sure to wait while I go to the Western Approach, then the Hinterlands, then Skyhold, back to the Hinterlands, Storm Coast and back to the Western Approach.

[Nefla]

Indeed it is easier to think so, and it also seems more likely to me. I have also seen several people with similar complaints but I also see many who, like me, don't have that problem. My suspicion is that the cause might be related to whether the player also enjoys reading fiction, has an intuitive or even trained understanding of plot, character, and setting. It might be significantly related to understanding politics or economics. I think it is certain that if a player buys the game wanting a fantasy version of GTA they are not likely to be thrilled. If they came to DA:I expecting a different game they will be disappointed. Is the mismatch between their expectation something they are responsible for, or is it something Bioware is responsible for?

 

On the one hand you can play the game that has been created. On the other hand you can try to play some other game in a game environment intended for a very different game. Where does the responsibility lie? Is it the fault of the beach that a fish cannot swim out of water?

Do you feel good about yourself being so pretentious and condescending? "People don't like this thing that I like so they must all be idiots!" I'm actually surprised that someone who claims to enjoy reading would find the "tell not show" approach to be well done. If someone wants to read a novel, then they'll find far better entertainment out there than clusters of short, scattered notes along the lines of "hey man, we need more villagers for our dastardly lyrium operation, kthanx."  

 

The sidequests in DA:I give you no reason to care about them. They can tell you you should care all they want, but you're given no real motivation. Any NPCs you're told to save are basically cardboard cutouts that don't react to anything. If you're lucky you'll get a line of dialogue such as "have you opened all the cages yet?" or "thank you for saving my goat" but no deeper interaction, none of them have a personality. The only visible change your actions have on the world are: more cardboard cutout people moving into keeps you clear out and no bandits/mages/Templars if you kill the bandit/mage/Templar hideout. Why close rifts? The rifts have zero effect on anything. The farmers go about their day to day life(if you can call standing around as a decoration "life") with a rift right there in the pasture and nothing happens. Add to that the small scale of these quests: if the inquisitor is going somewhere personally and taking care of a problem it should be something that couldn't be done by inquisition scouts or soldiers, otherwise it doesn't make sense for you to be there. The storytelling of the sidequests is so poorly done it's laughable. It's like they didn't even try.

[Kage]

Yeah, I understand the OP point.

The idea of DAI is that you are building it, you must get power, influence, grow, and then you will be able to do whatever you have to do.

 

However, the game does not tell you that enough. Actually, it is just a comment of Cullen in "while you are there, try to make inquiition stronger" or something similar when you first go to the Hinterlands, but nothing more.

 

I guess it is how it must go, if you want an open world with a main story. I would gladly not have such "openness", and have more story, but that's just a personal preference.

[spinachdiaper]

Because...well....because....you are there....and.....that's.....where...you...are?

[Proposition_Joe]

The story is´just paper-thin in places thats why you dont feel so connected at times to certain "zones" and their meaningless sidequests.

[Arakat]

DA:I suffers from the one thing that Mass Effect 1 and 2 suffered from, no pressing need to do anything. Oh Coryphifish is trying to kill the Empress, well I'm sure he'll be a bro and wait till I get done pissing around the Hissing Wastes (they don't even hiss). Coryphifish is headed to the Arbor Wilds with his army, he's cool so he'll make sure to wait while I go to the Western Approach, then the Hinterlands, then Skyhold, back to the Hinterlands, Storm Coast and back to the Western Approach.

 

I completely lost it at "they don't even hiss" Perfectly sums up my disappointment with the exploration aspect of the game.

[Silcron]

I agree to some degree. The areas did have some reason to be here, but it wasn't that well fleshed out. The best one for me it's the Oasis. You're there because of the misterious temple whose doors interacts with the shards you've been finding and that the venatori were interested in. It was well done.

Some others were ok, but could be better. Hinterlands you're there at the start to make a name for yourself, make the people trust you, so helping them with things such as the 10 ram meat makes sense, specially since demons, mages and templar are running around going to hunt for meat is dangerous for these people. Hissing wastes you're there for the dwarven ruins, and at least the comments Varric did in my playthrough helped keeping me interested in what I was doing.

But the rest? Yes, they had reasons to be there, but it was done so lightly that at some point you just think. "Why am I here? Oh, right, I'm the only one who can close rifts. Ok, so the rest is because...I'm curious?"

SWToR has done a much better job of making huge areas interesting (I'd wager Tatooine or Hoth are bigger than the Hissing wastes). Not only you have the storyline of your class, they give a common storyline for each planet that can be influenced in coop (well, actually two storylines. One for each side.) And that without mentioning all the sidequests and quest chains that are not part of those storylines. Yes, its fault is that what you do is mmoy, but every single time I knew why killing 50 mercs was important to the area and why I cared. My favourite sidequest chain is in Dromund Kaas with the Revanite cult, but there was also in Tatooine this inventor who popped along my travels throug the map and needed help with the things he was testing on droids (battle droids which were malfunctioning and killing anyhting on sight, he was currently working on gadgets to deal with them). That guy was interesting, and kind of funny. He made me want to do those quests.

Yes in DAI I'm hard pressed to remember details in sidequests that involved doing stuff for npcs that were not companions/advisors. Yes, the reasons are there, but that's like when a teacher gives out homework and just says "you need to practice" Sure, it's a reason, and I'll probably do it, not for that reason anyway, but I won't specially care about what I do or what the result is as long as it doesn't fail. I feel like that in this game. I complete stuff because I'm a completionist, but it's not a thrilling experience.

[Patchwork]

The game doesn't give a lot of reasons to do the small things it's not that big a deal for me because I like creating my own headcanons but it would be nice if there was a little reactivity to the side quests to make them more worthwhile. Like if the Inquisitor had used shards to open the doors at the Forbidden Oasis then they should have recognised the one at Redcliffe castle or a mail system at the Inquisitors desk with updates from the side quest areas, the agents you recruit are your inside men like Iron Bull suggested you have and they send you reports occasionally. 

 

Nothing big just something that acknowledges you've done stuff and it mattered. 

 

And while not a full War Table it would be nice if you were able to use the ravens in the first camp to send a message to Skyhold asking for more men so you can build a bridge or whatever without having to go back to base.  

[Corto81]

It uproots Corypheus's forces and sends him on the run to the Arbor Wilds, which is his last hope. You also only reach the Elven Ruins because your forces have been built up by the Power you gained expanding the Inquisition. Once he fails there his last ditch effort in Haven is understandable, given you've made it impossible for him to recuperate.

 

You can literally finish the game without leaving Hinterlands, and doing ONLY story quests.

 

No. What you do in other zones does not matter.

At least in any convincing or palpable way.

All you get are some codex explanations etc.
It's really not integrated into the story in a meaningful way, which is a shame.

[berrieh]

It uproots Corypheus's forces and sends him on the run to the Arbor Wilds, which is his last hope. You also only reach the Elven Ruins because your forces have been built up by the Power you gained expanding the Inquisition. Once he fails there his last ditch effort in Haven is understandable, given you've made it impossible for him to recuperate.

 

This is the thing - yes, you need to do things to gain Power, but it gives you choices in what to do. If every area had something essential to beating Cory or getting a better ending, it would no longer feel open and optional. It would essentially ruin the game. They could make the secondary stories stronger for people (by adding cutscenes, conversations, etc), but they couldn't make it more essential to the ending without changing the nature of the game completely, and that would ruin the freedom of the game. 

 

You can literally finish the game without leaving Hinterlands, and doing ONLY story quests.

 

No. What you do in other zones does not matter.

At least in any convincing or palpable way.

All you get are some codex explanations etc.
It's really not integrated into the story in a meaningful way, which is a shame.

 

This is incorrect. The game zones you must visit for the story are: Hinterlands, Crestwood, Western Approach, Arbor Wilds. There are 4 mandatory zones. Now, you don't have to do everything in any one. 

 

I also have cleared out the Hinterlands completely in a playthrough, and it did not provide me with enough power to finish the game (though maybe it would've if I didn't unlock unnecessary areas - I still think it'd fall short) without going and doing something else. In fact, in that playthrough, I ran out of Power around the Arbor Wilds unlock point. Also, to clear out the Hinterlands completely, you need Felendaris, and you can't get that there. 

 

Now what is true: Many zones are optional. You can pick and choose not to go there. If that means it "doesn't matter" then that's fair. (To me, optional zones are good, and it doesn't mean they don't matter - it means I have legitimate choices as a player.) But don't add inaccuracies to your point, as it doesn't help them. 

[Patchwork]

You can literally finish the game without leaving Hinterlands, and doing ONLY story quests.

 

No. What you do in other zones does not matter.

At least in any convincing or palpable way.

All you get are some codex explanations etc.
It's really not integrated into the story in a meaningful way, which is a shame.

 

Being able to finish the game by doing the bare minimum on the main quests isn't unusual it's the same in DAO and DA2, in most games probably.  

[Bod02]

Let me start with the standard disclaimers:  I generally liked the game.  I appreciate the responsiveness to DA2 criticism.  And I've gotten a 70 hour playthrough out of it, so I feel like I got my money's worth.  So please no "BioWare can never do right, no matter how much they give you" arguments.  This is constructive criticism.

 

That said, I probably won't play DAI again any time soon, because there was no sense of purpose behind the places.  Having lots of open areas is nice, but the question I kept coming back to was, "Why am I here again?"  Epic dramas require clear motivations.  If you can't, within five seconds, explain why the protagonist is doing what she's doing, the motivation part has gone off the rails and you're in danger of losing the audience.  In the particular context of an adventure story, you have to be able to understand what the main character is doing in a particular place.

 

Consider DAO as a model.  At any given time, it was very easy to explain the Warden's purpose in a given place.  If you are in Redcliffe, you are trying to get into the castle to the Arl, so he can help fight the blight.  The vast majority of subsidiary tasks (preparing the villagers for battle with the undead, dealing with the tavern owner who won't help, etc.) are directly tied --through clear, tightly-written dialogue--to that main purpose.  So you never forget why you are in Redcliffe.  Or the Brecilian Forest.  Or the tower.  Even in Orzammar, which I grant went on too long, you can always tie every action back to a simple, urgent motive:  "I have to get a king in place so he can help us fight the blight."  No matter how far down the deep roads I go, I know why I'm there.  MA2 and MA3 also generally got this right.  I know why I'm on Palaven's moon, on Tuchanka, etc.  

 

DAI did a poor job on this front.  Most of the areas were introduced by a text-only explanation at the war table, followed by the same perfunctory exposition from Harding:  "Welcome to [region of the country], Inquisitor.  It sure is [wet/dry/woodsy/dangerous] here.  And there's a faction you'll need to fight for some reason.  I think they were mining, or drafted into a war or something. Anyway, they're pissed, so watch out."  And at that point, the drama drops away and this (often beautiful) landscape goes from being a stage for a great story to being a level.  You're there because this is a video game and you need mooks to fight to grind experience and/or unlock something else.

 

Bottom line: DAO felt like a grand story on an average-looking stage.  DAI felt like a game with beautiful levels.  I'll take the former, please.

Hello Harvey,

 

Having a character motivation is very important for me to enjoy a story I agree. But I felt Origins wasn't that great on that front either. To me most of Origins would have the character much more interested in resolving that conflict than paying any attention to the blight at all.

 

If they at least let us visit Denerim first the human noble would have been quite alright.

[OriginalTibs]

Do you feel good about yourself being so pretentious and condescending? "People don't like this thing that I like so they must all be idiots!" I'm actually surprised that someone who claims to enjoy reading would find the "tell not show" approach to be well done. If someone wants to read a novel, then they'll find far better entertainment out there than clusters of short, scattered notes along the lines of "hey man, we need more villagers for our dastardly lyrium operation, kthanx."  

 

The sidequests in DA:I give you no reason to care about them. They can tell you you should care all they want, but you're given no real motivation. Any NPCs you're told to save are basically cardboard cutouts that don't react to anything. If you're lucky you'll get a line of dialogue such as "have you opened all the cages yet?" or "thank you for saving my goat" but no deeper interaction, none of them have a personality. The only visible change your actions have on the world are: more cardboard cutout people moving into keeps you clear out and no bandits/mages/Templars if you kill the bandit/mage/Templar hideout. Why close rifts? The rifts have zero effect on anything. The farmers go about their day to day life(if you can call standing around as a decoration "life") with a rift right there in the pasture and nothing happens. Add to that the small scale of these quests: if the inquisitor is going somewhere personally and taking care of a problem it should be something that couldn't be done by inquisition scouts or soldiers, otherwise it doesn't make sense for you to be there. The storytelling of the sidequests is so poorly done it's laughable. It's like they didn't even try.

So you don't recognize how things are causally interconnected, and don't agree that prevention is worth a pound of cure. Making friends now counters potential enmity later. The cost of averting catastrophe looks like an unnecessary and wasteful expense if it is successful only because the catastrophe was successfully avoided. The banks are fine now that the recession is past, so the bailout was a complete waste, right? Fool. Attempting to slight me as pretentious (when you have no idea of my real accomplishments) and condescending (when you couldn't think your way out of a paper bag) is inept argumentation in support of your failure to conceptualize how events might integrate if you fail to build the reputation of the inquisition.

[Nefla]

So you don't recognize how things are causally interconnected, and don't agree that prevention is worth a pound of cure. Making friends now counters potential enmity later. The cost of averting catastrophe looks like an unnecessary and wasteful expense if it is successful only because the catastrophe was successfully avoided. The banks are fine now that the recession is past, so the bailout was a complete waste, right? Fool. Attempting to slight me as pretentious (when you have no idea of my real accomplishments) and condescending (when you couldn't think your way out of a paper bag) is inept argumentation in support of your failure to conceptualize how events might integrate if you fail to build the reputation of the inquisition.

Ah I see, you were a troll all along.

[Iakus]

I agree on those parts, but those occurrences are very rare in the game.

This is unfortunately true.

 

But the point is they don't have to matter going into the end-game.  But more story-based "side missions" like these would have made the areas feel much more alive.