95 réponses à ce sujet

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Seemed pretty obvious to me that she loved him.  It wasn't a ruse, or some attempt to get him out of the way.

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive. Especially coming from Vivienne.

[leadintea]

I actually thought it was poison as well the first time through. If you took Vivienne to the Fade, the Fear demon comments about how she could become First Enchanter at her age, which made me think she needed the heart for herself and tricking the Inquisitor with the Bastien thing.

[Yaslana]

Huh, I never met his family... When do they visit skyhold?

[Iakus]

Seemed pretty obvious to me that she loved him.  It wasn't a ruse, or some attempt to get him out of the way.

Agreed.  The age-regression potion was a high-risk, last-ditch effort to save him.  If she wanted to poison him, she would have asked for a generic wyvern heart, or heck any kind of toxic substance.  Or just let the clock run out.  But the potion called for a heart from a particularly rare breed of wyvern (the book is available to be read in her quaters) , which she specifically asks for.

 

And yeah her expression when it doesn't work shows she genuinely cared for him.

[helpthisguyplease]

Where are the diplomats and visitors in Skyhold and in earlier Haven kept?

No she did not because you do not need a rare thing to make a poison you need antrax. She send us to save the guys life but she failed.

[Mr.House]

Give her the wrong heart and see what happens.

 

Shew was truly trying to save him.

[Arakat]

At first, I actually thought he died because I gave her the fake heart, and had to reload. I genuinely thought the potion was for something nefarious and/or vain, but it seems like she did want to save him.

[Thane4Ever]

Huh, I never met his family... When do they visit skyhold?

I *think* they are there after you beat Cory, during the Skyhold celebration, but I may be misremembering.  If you walk over to talk to her, she introduces you. I haven't gotten to my second ending yet.

[Arakat]

I *think* they are there after you beat Cory, during the Skyhold celebration, but I may be misremembering.  If you walk over to talk to her, she introduces you. I haven't gotten to my second ending yet.

 

No, it's before that. Can't remember when, exactly.

[Thane4Ever]

No, it's before that. Can't remember when, exactly.

Oh yeah.  I think you talk to her after he dies and she thanks you (if you really tried to help), then you have to talk to her again to trigger the introduction.  But I'm sure it only happens if you got her the real heart otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

[Yaslana]

I gave her the real heart. Strange...

[Thane4Ever]

I gave her the real heart. Strange...

Did you ****** her off a lot before then? Maybe even by doing that your approval wasn't quite high enough or it has to be maxed out.

[Kappa Neko]

I believe she does trick you. It was even foreshadowed by Blackwall. "The most poisonous snakes are often the most beautiful."
Her new card looks quite sinister too.
Everybody tells you not to trust Vivienne. She is playing the game. She's like Celene and all the other nobles with masks. She freely admits it!

Whether or not she cared for him at some point is up for debate. I believe she was at least fond of him. Her tears might have been a complete act, but if so it was very convincing.
However, she will do anything for personal gain. And that includes killing her lover. She could even have been the one who made him sick in the first place even though the potion notes suggest otherwise.
At the very least she's an opportunist. The man was dying anyway, so she sped things up and turned his death into her advantage.
It's shocking how nonchalant she is about it if you confront her. I don't think she's completely heartless. But she would betray anyone if it benefitted her. She's your friend only as long as you are useful to her. Several companions tell you that. She's not that different to Celene. She's a pro at the game. And she enjoys it.

I like her as a character and I even agree with some of her views. But I would never trust her and never put her in a position of real power. I might end up poisoned too...

[Hobbes]

I'm pretty sure she wasn't poisoning him, she seemed genuinely upset.

Plus in my first time round I saved before giving her the heart and for laughs and curiosity, gave her the fake heart.  He still dies anyway and she picks up on the fact that it isn't working as intended (he doesn't stir at all) and seems upset and surprised by this.  She then pretty much tears you a new one for giving her a fake.  If she was trying to poison him, she wouldn't be so upset at you when he dies anyway.  Added onto that, why poison someone who is dying anyway?

[dgcatanisiri]

Vivienne is a master player of Orlais' Great Game. She is ALWAYS wearing a mask, and NEVER revealing her true self, thoughts, and emotions. But I think she genuinely does let it slip for just a moment when she gets last words with Bastien. That is the face of a woman who has just watched the man she loved die, despite all she'd done for him. The fact that, by the time that his sister and son arrive at Skyhold, she's replaced the mask and is taking advantage of his death as best she can is completely beside the point.

 

Because she had pinned her star to Bastien, everything that she did afterwards was in an effort to ensure that she could keep going after his death, because she NEEDED that protection - the Circles are gone, the templars may not be what they were, but they're still a threat to any mage, and there's all that she had internalized as a result of having to work within that system to get where she was. She had lost her lover, who was effectively also a patron for her, and, given that Morrigan was in the Orlesian Court, her position as the Imperial Enchanter is probably in doubt, along with the fact that, without the Circle, her taking the position of Grand Enchanter or First Enchanter of a Circle means nothing, she had to do what she needed to in order to protect herself. So yes, she doesn't take the time to mourn, just to turn it to her advantage, because that's the way that she's always done things, in order to ensure her own survival.

[Ascendra]

Vivienne is a master player of Orlais' Great Game. She is ALWAYS wearing a mask, and NEVER revealing her true self, thoughts, and emotions. But I think she genuinely does let it slip for just a moment when she gets last words with Bastien. That is the face of a woman who has just watched the man she loved die, despite all she'd done for him. The fact that, by the time that his sister and son arrive at Skyhold, she's replaced the mask and is taking advantage of his death as best she can is completely beside the point.

 

Because she had pinned her star to Bastien, everything that she did afterwards was in an effort to ensure that she could keep going after his death, because she NEEDED that protection - the Circles are gone, the templars may not be what they were, but they're still a threat to any mage, and there's all that she had internalized as a result of having to work within that system to get where she was. She had lost her lover, who was effectively also a patron for her, and, given that Morrigan was in the Orlesian Court, her position as the Imperial Enchanter is probably in doubt, along with the fact that, without the Circle, her taking the position of Grand Enchanter or First Enchanter of a Circle means nothing, she had to do what she needed to in order to protect herself. So yes, she doesn't take the time to mourn, just to turn it to her advantage, because that's the way that she's always done things, in order to ensure her own survival.

 

I think this is a great description. I also pretty much felt that way.

I don't think she tricked the Inquisitor, just managed to put back on her mask really fast.

[daveliam]

Vivienne is a master player of Orlais' Great Game. She is ALWAYS wearing a mask, and NEVER revealing her true self, thoughts, and emotions. But I think she genuinely does let it slip for just a moment when she gets last words with Bastien. That is the face of a woman who has just watched the man she loved die, despite all she'd done for him. The fact that, by the time that his sister and son arrive at Skyhold, she's replaced the mask and is taking advantage of his death as best she can is completely beside the point.

 

Because she had pinned her star to Bastien, everything that she did afterwards was in an effort to ensure that she could keep going after his death, because she NEEDED that protection - the Circles are gone, the templars may not be what they were, but they're still a threat to any mage, and there's all that she had internalized as a result of having to work within that system to get where she was. She had lost her lover, who was effectively also a patron for her, and, given that Morrigan was in the Orlesian Court, her position as the Imperial Enchanter is probably in doubt, along with the fact that, without the Circle, her taking the position of Grand Enchanter or First Enchanter of a Circle means nothing, she had to do what she needed to in order to protect herself. So yes, she doesn't take the time to mourn, just to turn it to her advantage, because that's the way that she's always done things, in order to ensure her own survival.

 

This is brilliantly written.  Absolutely 100% correct, in my opinion.  Her world is crumbling around her and she maintains this mask the entire time.  When Bastien dies, especially if you genuinely tried to help her, you get to see the real Vivienne for a moment.  It's a beautiful moment that humanizes her character.  If that wasn't part of her story, I'd argue that she would be a bit of an Iron Lady stereotype. 

 

After Bastien dies, she cannot afford time to mourn because The Game pauses for no one.  She is playing from a losing position at that moment (no Circles, no Bastien, possibly no Celene) and I'm sure that this troubles her.  She simply continues playing the game as hard as she can at that moment.  Some might read it as cold, but I see it as the moves of a sad, but efficient player of The Game. 

The idea that she killed Bastien is silly.  Is she really better off without him than with him?  He's been her lover for years and helped get her where she is.  Her reputation is, in part, due to her position as his lover.  She loses all of that if he is gone.  With the Circles also gone, she has already lost part of her power-base.  Why would she willingly give up the rest of it to make allies with his son?  And, even if you think she is better off without him, why would she need the white wyveryn heart just to make a poison?  She goes out of her way to ask for a very special ingredient for a potion and then brings you to watch her give it to him.  Unless she is trying to implicate you as well, what does that serve, when she could easily have him killed with any other poison.  I'm just not seeing the logic.

[Lord_Caledore]

I never thought for a second that she was poisioning him. As other have discussed, her mask is her armor. She drops it for a moment in the quest, and all I saw was genuine grief, and genuine gratitude for trying to help her.

 

If she used the circumstances to her advantage afterwards, she is donning the mask again. Plus, I just don't see the advantage of poisioning Bastien, particularly in that manner. Why even have the Inquisitor there if she's planning on poisioning him?

[Kappa Neko]

Could be some kind of untraceable poison if such a thing plays any role in the Dragon Age universe *g*

I totally bought her grief but then the follow-up scene kind of destroyed the whole thing again. And then I thought of Blackwall's words about her and it made me think "****", now I'm even more distrustful of her.

I didn't play out not giving her the right heart, so I'd have to see it to feel differently about it. I do want her to be a player of the game because she has no other choice, but she seems to actually enjoy it. She doesn't have to play any games with the inquisitor, so why did she have to be so gleeful about Bastien's death? Mask back in place, but for whom? She told the inquisitor that she always comes out on top. Not a smart thing to do at all. If the game actually masked her softer side, she doesn't gain anything by being so smug in that scene. It makes her untrustworthy.

She's certainly more complex than her iron lady appearance. But that scene is highly ambiguous to me on purpose and I trust her even less now. Grief or not, Vivienne never loses.
I don't fully buy it that her arrogance is all a mask. It should be in her best interest to act as a team player as part of the inquisition if she needs protection so badly. But instead she's condescending to everyone, including the inquisitor. Being charming should be her mask. It's how everyone else plays it around the inquisitor at the ball.
One could argue that she's stuck in her game mindset and doesn't know any other way to deal with people. But she strikes me as far too clever not to know how to charm the inquisitor. So I see real arrogance there. She enjoyed displaying her superiority even in the face of her lover's death. Her arrogance is not like Dorian's to me. Not purely a tool to deflect insecurity and a soft heart.

I wasn't surprised at all at the attempt to show her softer side. Look people, she's human after all! Then came the cut scene with the relatives and I thought Bioware pullled a double bluff and played me. Made me fall for her tears.
While Vivienne's desperation to save the man she loved is quite the cliché character development, I probably prefer it over my revised interpretation. It has more depth even if done a million times before.

I do agree it's a very good character study posted above.

[Thane4Ever]

Kudos to the writers that we're even able to have such a rich discussion on a side character.

[Ahalvern]

I can never be sure. She is a master of the game, and she has shown that she can sweep most of her feelings under the rug to reach her goals. It's not way out there that her sadness may have been another ruse. The timing of the Duke's death (his family has ties to the Chantry, and the Chantry right now is looking for a new divine... hmmm) would benefit her right at this moment too. So if he was going to die why not speed it up? Plus, as others said, her tarot card after the quest does seem rather nefarious.

[Dean_the_Young]

People need to step over the idea that Vivienne couldn't love him and be trying to save him AND be playing the Game at the same time. There's an undercurrent I sense with a lot of people that if she loved him, she wouldn't play the Game after his death, but that's really just a false delimma.

 

Vivienne loved him and was sincerely trying to save him. She did so in a way that would have benefited her in The Game had it suceeded. When it did not, she composed herself in a way that would likewise have benefited her.

 

Having additional motives does not mean her stated one was not sincere.

[NoForgiveness]

Well it does seem like she actually did care about him but the age regression potion was never going to work. I think it was just a way to make it seem like the inquisitor was trying to save the dudes life and Vivienne could use that to pretend she's important. Really wanted the punch option after that one...