158 réponses à ce sujet

[KariTR]

Jaulen, I have lost all 100 points of approval from dumping Alistair for Zevron. So while you can dump him at little cost, you can also take a massive hit depending which dialogue option you choose.

[ejoslin]

I have to agree, the Zevran romance is so unexpectedly deep, it goes in pretty much the exact opposite direction as the Alistair one. There's a man who, once you win him, will take on the world for you. And all you have to do is show him kindness. Even before he falls in love, he is so much about making the PC's life just a bit better. When Alistair forces the PC to choose, if she chooses him, he doesn't acknowledge at all that the PC may be going through a bit of a difficult time over it. Zevran, if you choose him, will try to cheer her up or leave her alone, knowing it's got to be painful. And if you choose Ali, Zevran will tell the PC that even a friendship with her is worth pursuing and hopes that can continue. Ali pulls out the guilt stops.



Ummm, is this an Alistair love thread? I think I should stop here!

[ejoslin]

KariTR wrote...

Jaulen, I have lost all 100 points of approval from dumping Alistair for Zevron. So while you can dump him at little cost, you can also take a massive hit depending which dialogue option you choose.

Oh, the only way you take THAT kind of loss is if you're incredibly brutal.  With Zevran, you can be very kind, and you will still take a big loss.  Zevran in a shallow relationship seems to value it more highly than Alistair in full love.  Part of it is personality differences I'm sure, and part of it is because Alistair knows that being king means losing the PC anyway.

[Creature 1]

Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get around to romancing Zevran. ;-)

I romanced Alistair on my first playthrough, after picking Zevran I don't know if I will romance Alistair ever again.  Poor Leliana also is languishing. 

[Jaulen]

KariTR wrote...



Jaulen, I have lost all 100 points of approval from dumping Alistair for Zevron. So while you can dump him at little cost, you can also take a massive hit depending which dialogue option you choose.





like ejoslin says, you have to be VERY brutal and MEAN to Alistair to get that approval drop. Heck I tried that tact just to see and got 100 points down too.



But even with the nicest choices and being as kind as you can to Zev, I have never gotten less than a 29 approval drop. And I think I spent 4 hours reloading and trying all the diologue options choices....talking to Ali first and picking him and then talking to Zev, ending it with Zev first then talking to Alistair......

[Jaulen]

ejoslin wrote...

There's a man who, once you win him, will take on the world for you.

*swoon*

And like you say too, Zevran will mention the choice you had to make, Alistair just kind of selfishly and blindly continues stomping forward utnil HE's forced to make a decision.....and then come heck or highwater....(especially unhardened) it's his way or the highway.

Okay, I've used up my weekly allotment of cliche's.

[SurelyForth]

I think one of the defaults is to drop you down to the next approval level. If I break up with Alistair while at 100, I almost always lose 26 points, no matter what dialogue choice I make. It's like an approval reset of sorts. I've broken up with Zev and have only lost 13 points, but that was because I was only 13 points above Interested.



The thing with Alistair is that he can't blame the PC for ending the relationship because he knows full well that the chance for a happy ending is slim, because of who he is and the fact that they're both Grey Wardens. He doesn't want the PC to break up with him- he is always full on sadface- but he understands that it's probably for the best in the long run.

[Jaulen]

Eh, I've broken up with Alistair and gotten a 0 point approval drop.



He just switched from 100 Love to 100 Friendly.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think one of the defaults is to drop you down to the next approval level. If I break up with Alistair while at 100, I almost always lose 26 points, no matter what dialogue choice I make. It's like an approval reset of sorts. I've broken up with Zev and have only lost 13 points, but that was because I was only 13 points above Interested.

The thing with Alistair is that he can't blame the PC for ending the relationship because he knows full well that the chance for a happy ending is slim, because of who he is and the fact that they're both Grey Wardens. He doesn't want the PC to break up with him- he is always full on sadface- but he understands that it's probably for the best in the long run.

I don't like the guilt trip he pulls ("That Zev is a lucky bastard") or if you choose him, the fact that he just kisses you and all is supposed to be well.  I do like with Zevran, if you pick him, he tries to cheer you up, but if you tell him you can't talk about it right now, he is still very sweet about it.  AND if you pick Ali, Zevran will make it clear that even your friendship is worth pursuing.

I always get the feeling with Alistair that he is in love with an ideal -- when you let him down, he is REALLY let down.  With Zevran, while you can tick him off, you just don't get the huge approval drops for your actions.  But more than that, I get the feeling that Zevran and the PC are actually equals, where Alistair is definitely subservient.  Bann Teagan pleads for help saving Redcliff, and Alistair says, "It's not only up to me."  Zevran isn't afraid to say what is up, and you can disagree with him and tick him off, but he WILL speak for the group if he thinks something is right (heh, Orzammar).  And if you decide to leave Redcliff, you get an approval drop from Alistair, but nothing else.  

Hmmmmm, romance wise, though, both are compelling.  Zevran's moreso, though, because of the depth and endurance of feeling at the end.  When he finally declares his intentions (if you get that far), there is nothing but the raw emotion.  All he wants is the PC.  He's not asking for promises, all he wants is her to love him the way he loves her.   And though it's the PC who suggests that the second offer of the earring is a proposal, it is pretty obvious he meant it that way (try telling him "That's too much," you doubt it).

Alistair, if you don't make him king, also has a beautiful ending, but maybe it's because it ends pretty early, it lacks the intensity of the building of the relationship.  Plus, you have to deal with him pulling away after he falls in love and putting distance in there.  In truth, when he says, "Ask away," after breaking it, his voice is warmer than when he says, "Anything you need, my dear?"  And while his distancing himself is understandable, it still puts a bit of a damper on the relationship, in my opinion.

*squee*

[Sarielle]

Oh. You mean teasing/reloading. I thought we were talking about like how funny it is when you have him sitting firmly at "hostile" n such.

[Sarielle]

Oh. You mean teasing. I thought we were talking about like how funny it is when you have him sitting firmly at "hostile" n such.

[Jaulen]

My next playthrough I will be doing everything 'anti-Alistair' I can.



Although this time through, playing a male city elf, it's been a whole heck of a lot harder to get Alistair's approval up than playing as a female.



Heck, I had Sten at 92% approval with only giving him two gifts.....while at the same time I only had Alistair at 60 some approval with 'give Alistair every gift I find so I don't have to carry the things around'.



And I've been playing a goody-two shoes this game (well, except for kissing a couple of pretty girls, and stabbing Genitivi in the back of the head) and I'm still not the dude's BFF.

[SurelyForth]

I guess I don't get the sense that he is distancing himself after he hits Love. There are a few points where he makes pretty definitive statements: like hoping you'll be the only woman he sleeps with, telling you that you're more important to him than anything (if unhardened), saying that he'll find a way to make the relationship work (if he's hardened and named king). Also, if you sacrifice yourself and he's not king, he is every bit as lost as Zevran is.

I adore Zevran and get why he people won't go back after doing his romance, I felt the same way after a City Elf rogue PC who Zev pretty much saved from becoming a monster. All my Alistair fangirling is because of my most recent playthrough, with a super practical HN who was sarcastic, called Alistair out on being overly sentimental, bedded him first, hardened him and made him solo king. The Alistair-romance clicked for me with that PC, I saw a definite character arc and it felt more genuine than when I would coddle him. She definitely preferred the more pragmatic Alistair at the end of that game, and so did I.

As for messing with Alistair...my sister's favorite, from the rose conversation when you call his bluff on the steamy bits (I think you need to be traveling alone to get this):

Alistair: Well maybe some night, back at the camp. You know, in a tent.
PC: Who needs a tent?
Alistair: But what if a monster finds us while we're...how embarrassing! Or maybe I'm just a coward who needs a tent for...stuff.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 12:06 .

[Bratt1204]

SurelyForth wrote...

I guess I don't get the sense that he is distancing himself after he hits Love. There are a few points where he makes pretty definitive statements: like hoping you'll be the only woman he sleeps with, telling you that you're more important to him than anything (if unhardened), saying that he'll find a way to make the relationship work (if he's hardened and named king). Also, if you sacrifice yourself and he's not king, he is every bit as lost as Zevran is.

I adore Zevran and get why he people won't go back after doing his romance, I felt the same way after a City Elf rogue PC who Zev pretty much saved from becoming a monster. All my Alistair fangirling is because of my most recent playthrough, with a super practical HN who was sarcastic, called Alistair out on being overly sentimental, bedded him first, hardened him and made him solo king. The Alistair-romance clicked for me with that PC, I saw a definite character arc and it felt more genuine than when I would coddle him. She definitely preferred the more pragmatic Alistair at the end of that game, and so did I.

As for messing with Alistair...my sister's favorite, from the rose conversation when you call his bluff on the steamy bits (I think you need to be traveling alone to get this):

Alistair: Well maybe some night, back at the camp. You know, in a tent.
PC: Who needs a tent?
Alistair: But what if a monster finds us while we're...how embarrassing! Or maybe I'm just a coward who needs a tent for...stuff.

Oh, that's great bit of dialogue. Do you remember the trigger for this??

[Thiefy]

Bratt1204 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I guess I don't get the sense that he is distancing himself after he hits Love. There are a few points where he makes pretty definitive statements: like hoping you'll be the only woman he sleeps with, telling you that you're more important to him than anything (if unhardened), saying that he'll find a way to make the relationship work (if he's hardened and named king). Also, if you sacrifice yourself and he's not king, he is every bit as lost as Zevran is.

I adore Zevran and get why he people won't go back after doing his romance, I felt the same way after a City Elf rogue PC who Zev pretty much saved from becoming a monster. All my Alistair fangirling is because of my most recent playthrough, with a super practical HN who was sarcastic, called Alistair out on being overly sentimental, bedded him first, hardened him and made him solo king. The Alistair-romance clicked for me with that PC, I saw a definite character arc and it felt more genuine than when I would coddle him. She definitely preferred the more pragmatic Alistair at the end of that game, and so did I.

As for messing with Alistair...my sister's favorite, from the rose conversation when you call his bluff on the steamy bits (I think you need to be traveling alone to get this):

Alistair: Well maybe some night, back at the camp. You know, in a tent.
PC: Who needs a tent?
Alistair: But what if a monster finds us while we're...how embarrassing! Or maybe I'm just a coward who needs a tent for...stuff.

Oh, that's great bit of dialogue. Do you remember the trigger for this??

It's the rose dialouge, you guys have to be alone in a town somewhere on on the world map, and you have to ask him why is he bluffing

[_Aine_]

SurelyForth wrote...

As for messing with Alistair...my sister's favorite, from the rose conversation when you call his bluff on the steamy bits (I think you need to be traveling alone to get this):

Alistair: Well maybe some night, back at the camp. You know, in a tent.
PC: Who needs a tent?
Alistair: But what if a monster finds us while we're...how embarrassing! Or maybe I'm just a coward who needs a tent for...stuff.

awwwww, that's actually a very telling piece of dialog.  If you think about it.  

I started out pro-alistair, then meh-alistair and my last playthrough alistair actually ended up ok.  He is crush-worthy and frankly quite human this playthrough.  This current PC would defend him to the death, despite a few playthroughs were I was underwhelmed by him in certain circumstances.  All this despite this character being a ends-justify the means sort of person at times.  She means well, but you know, its a Blight and gets down to brass tacks instead of mulling endlessly on fascinating hypotheses,... 

I have said it before and will say it again, that the very reasons I like or dislike a character here is because they somehow remind me of bits of myself i like or dislike.  Alistair.... appeals to the young me who believed in fairy tales and had to learn that endings aren't always pretty or clean.  Zevran appeals to the me that is naughty and understands how pain jades perception and that physicality is sometimes apart from sentiment.... I *get* Zevran, at least from how I see his past.  My favorite line is when he says " People like us are not the products of happy lives" or something to that extent.  It is the voice of a person who has decided to live beyond victimization despite being treated as a victim.  I am perhaps biased but i LOVE that about Zevran, though I may wonder at times why he is so blase at times.... 

  My husband says I like Sten because he talks of bite-bars and the like.  Imagine the nerve!?!  Hrmmph. 

I want to try to get this version with Ali now.  I remember the like conversation, just clearly havent picked the correct options to get it yet  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You can take massive approval drops by dumping Zevran, too, depending on convo options. And you don't have to take the mean route, either. I think I lost like 30 approval dumping Zev in one playthrough, though I don't remember what I picked. I think I was trying to let him off easy, though.



Another time, however, I didn't lose too much approval, like only - 13. I'm guessing, that, by other's experiences, approval losses might be influenced by whether or not certain events have taken place, the level the relationship is at, if you've had certain dialogues take place, ect ect ect. As well as the dump options you choose.



I've seen the same with Alistair, in some situations, the same "dump dialogue" produces different

approval drops. Leliana, as well, and her reactions differ.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

I guess I don't get the sense that he is distancing himself after he hits Love. There are a few points where he makes pretty definitive statements: like hoping you'll be the only woman he sleeps with, telling you that you're more important to him than anything (if unhardened), saying that he'll find a way to make the relationship work (if he's hardened and named king). Also, if you sacrifice yourself and he's not king, he is every bit as lost as Zevran is.

I adore Zevran and get why he people won't go back after doing his romance, I felt the same way after a City Elf rogue PC who Zev pretty much saved from becoming a monster. All my Alistair fangirling is because of my most recent playthrough, with a super practical HN who was sarcastic, called Alistair out on being overly sentimental, bedded him first, hardened him and made him solo king. The Alistair-romance clicked for me with that PC, I saw a definite character arc and it felt more genuine than when I would coddle him. She definitely preferred the more pragmatic Alistair at the end of that game, and so did I.

As for messing with Alistair...my sister's favorite, from the rose conversation when you call his bluff on the steamy bits (I think you need to be traveling alone to get this):

Alistair: Well maybe some night, back at the camp. You know, in a tent.
PC: Who needs a tent?
Alistair: But what if a monster finds us while we're...how embarrassing! Or maybe I'm just a coward who needs a tent for...stuff.

But . . . the stuff you're quoting happens when he falls in love (and before), and it's only one conversation.  Then you have that break where he's saying, "Anything you need, my dear?"  With nothing else there until the Landsmeet, where unless you've played the game before, you most likely end up dumped.  I never said he falls out of love, though, I said he distances himself.  You go from that smoldering, "My command is your desire" to the fairly cold, "Anything you need, my dear?" 

Also, if you have the talk about his intentions AFTER he knows Eamon is putting him forth as king, he will tell you outright that he will accept it as it's his duty, and that he doesn't know what that means for the relationship, but it's pretty clear he's expecting it to end.  I actually like him better for that conversation.  I hated it when the dumping was a total surprise -- but there is a circumstance where he does warn the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2010 - 02:43 .

[Monica21]

Jaulen wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There's a man who, once you win him, will take on the world for you.

*swoon*

And like you say too, Zevran will mention the choice you had to make, Alistair just kind of selfishly and blindly continues stomping forward utnil HE's forced to make a decision.....and then come heck or highwater....(especially unhardened) it's his way or the highway.

Okay, I've used up my weekly allotment of cliche's.

\\
I'll do a Zev romance when I have a female elf. I have a weird thing about not being taller than the guy. :-)

[Forgotten Legend]

well, as a male warden, obviously not in a romance with alistair, my favorite so far was when recruiting Zevran. when alistair objects, i told him, "well, i brought *you* along, didn't i?". and he responds... "ouch! i see your point, but, ouch!" and disapproval -15 if i remember right.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...
But . . . the stuff you're quoting happens when he falls in love (and before), and it's only one conversation.  Then you have that break where he's saying, "Anything you need, my dear?"  With nothing else there until the Landsmeet, where unless you've played the game before, you most likely end up dumped.  I never said he falls out of love, though, I said he distances himself.  You go from that smoldering, "My command is your desire" to the fairly cold, "Anything you need, my dear?" 

Also, if you have the talk about his intentions AFTER he knows Eamon is putting him forth as king, he will tell you outright that he will accept it as it's his duty, and that he doesn't know what that means for the relationship, but it's pretty clear he's expecting it to end.  I actually like him better for that conversation.  I hated it when the dumping was a total surprise -- but there is a circumstance where he does warn the warden.

They are three separate conversations- one you get in lieu of being asked to spend the night with him, one during the Landsmeet prep and the other after the Landsmeet- the second two are mutually exclusive, since one is unhardened Alistair and the other hardened. Also, if he goes from Adore to Love immediately after his personal quest, he does two things right away that are the very opposite of distancing himself- he tells you that he loves you (if you don't harden him) and he asks you to spend the night with him (or you get the "if I have my way" line). If falling in love with the PC was the point at which he pulled away, why wouldn't the trigger for these things be once he hits Adore, or perhaps Adore +90 instead? I guess I have never sensed that it was a switch from hot to lukewarm before ("Something you need, my dear?" never bothered me, I just thought it was a nice representation of going from breathless new love to something more established).

I didn't get dumped on my first playthrough because when it was time for me to pick who would rule Ferelden, I asked him what I should do and he told me to choose Anora. I did it because, well, it's his life, right? He mentioned his life being decided for him at least three times- when you meet him in Ostagar, while talking about being Maric's son, and again after Eamon says he's going to be put up as the heir (if you ask him about the future of your relationship after that point, which I did). I can't blame the man for being pessimistic about his future happiness under those circumstances, and it was the least I could do to finally let him have a say for once. 

That said, in the run up to the Landsmeet and during the Landsmeet, he pretty much points you towards the happiest endgame for both of you in the couple of dialogues you have with him. He doesn't explicitly say "If I am king, we cannot be together", but if he's not hardened he would obviously prefer that you pick Anora, while if he is hardened he does want to be king, in which case he'll stay with you either way.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:28 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

They are three separate conversations- one you get in lieu of being asked to spend the night with him, one during the Landsmeet prep and the other after the Landsmeet- the second two are mutually exclusive, since one is unhardened Alistair and the other hardened. Also, if he goes from Adore to Love immediately after his personal quest, he does two things right away that are the very opposite of distancing himself- he tells you that he loves you (if you don't harden him) and he asks you to spend the night with him (or you get the "if I have my way" line). If falling in love with the PC was the point at which he pulled away, why wouldn't the trigger for these things be once he hits Adore, or perhaps Adore +90 instead?

I didn't get dumped on my first playthrough because when it was time for me to pick who would rule Ferelden, I asked him what I should do and he told me to choose Anora. I did it because, well, it's his life, right? He mentioned his life being decided for him at least three times- when you meet him in Ostagar, while talking about being Maric's son, and again after Eamon says he's going to be put up as the heir (if you ask him about the future of your relationship after that point, which I did). I can't blame the man for being pessimistic about his future happiness under those circumstances, and it was the least I could do to finally let him have a say for once. 

That said, in the run up to the Landsmeet and during the Landsmeet, he pretty much points you towards the happiest endgame for both of you in the couple of dialogues you have with him. He doesn't explicitly say "If I am king, we cannot be together", but if he's not hardened he would obviously prefer that you pick Anora, while if he is hardened he does want to be king, in which case he'll stay with you either way.

It is after you finish his personal quest that he falls in love and that you get to ask him about his intentions.  And once he falls in love, reality sets in.  Yes, you get a wonderful response immediately.  But then, asking him about his intentions, if he's not hardened, wow.  If he is hardened but knows he's going to be put forth as king, even more wow (those wows are very negative).  Too bad those doubts set in once the relationship gets serious.  You do not lose approval by breaking up with him at that point.  It's once he falls in love that he realizes how little a chance the relationship has of working.  The fact that it can work, either as his mistress, or having him not become king (and he's FINE with that actually even if he's hardened -- no approval loss at all), really isn't know until you've played the game at least once through.  

I find it amazing how people end up with such different perceptions with the same dialogs. It truly is an amazing story, that it can do that an evoke such strong emotions.  So much of the different perceptions probably comes from different dialog choices.  It's a lot of fun.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:28 .

[SurelyForth]

It is really true about how people perceive the dialogues differently. I think the conversation about his intentions when he is hardened is...not that bad at all, really. If he's unhardened, it's obvious that he really doesn't want to think about it and you will get a disapproval if you intimate that love will triumph (red flag!). If he's hardened, even if you both sort of agree that your future could be childless and sans marriage, the overall vibe I get by the end is much more hopeful. 

I guess the crux of my dealio with Alistair is that his role in the game's plot requires him to be certain things that don't necessarily make sense as a whole and he requires a bit of puzzling/prodding to make work. Like I said, he never gelled for me until my last playthrough, when I took a different approach. I always got the sense that he had doubts about the relationship (he seems to hedge all of his romantic gestures in some way) but it's understandable given the circumstances. I just never thought about him being selfish or less than forthright once he fell in love because I never had a "where the heck did that come from?" moment like many others who were surprise-dumped by him at the Landsmeet. When a PC did get dumped, it was because I made a choice to go that route for RP reasons.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:11 .

[ejoslin]

Have you spoken with him about his intentions after speaking with Eamon? It's actually quite different than if you speak with him before then. He actually talks about becoming king and what that will mean. Part of him is, oh no, it won't be a problem, but the other part is, yes, I'm going to be king, I don't know what that will mean for us. I liked that far better than the conversation you get if you ask before he knows of Eamon's plans. Of course, the warden can choose not to question about those things, I suppose, but I was happy to see those choices there.

[Jaulen]

My first playthrough with romancing Alistair (CEF), I had hardened him (the line for hardening was natural for the character I was playing to say).

So she was totally okay with putting Alistair on the throne sans Anora and being the "Shadow Queen."

She also left to go rebuild the grey wardens. After all, it was all she really had left that was worthy, and being a grey warden let her find a sense of honor and purpose. And what is more noble than protecting everyone? Figure it was much more true to character than asking for riches, being chancellor, etc.

Heck, after ruling for awhile, he left Denerim to be with me and help me rebuild the grey wardens, and didn't leave my side (he didn't even go to Weisxxxop). So even unmarried, and me running off with Zevran to go recruiting, he came after me. Gave me warm fuzzies since by that time I had started reading DA Wiki and learned of the different epis, and was frankly a little suprized at the ending I got.

I kind of figure it was an ending bug.....

********

I haven't played as a HNF yet, but even then, I can't see any character I played wanting to be Queen (maybe King if I played a HNM). After all, the kingdom will need an heir...and if Alistair doesn't provide that heir (and recall he won't be very keen about the whole bastard idea, but it would be okay for you to be his mistress since you can't have his child (hardened of course)), then what the heck did you bother fighting Loghain for and putting Alistair on the throne? Once he's dead the throne would either go to any of Teagan's gits, or the country would be plunged back into civil war....IMHO playing your HNF to be queen is the ultimate selfish act, and a total waste of everything you stood for and fought for up to that point. So yeah, the more I think about it, I could never play a character to be Queen.

Modifié par Jaulen, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:23 .