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[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Have you spoken with him about his intentions after speaking with Eamon? It's actually quite different than if you speak with him before then. He actually talks about becoming king and what that will mean. Part of him is, oh no, it won't be a problem, but the other part is, yes, I'm going to be king, I don't know what that will mean for us. I liked that far better than the conversation you get if you ask before he knows of Eamon's plans. Of course, the warden can choose not to question about those things, I suppose, but I was happy to see those choices there.

Definitely, since the last playthrough I didn't even do his personal quest until the Landsmeet started. I prefer that conversation as well, because he's being honest and realistic, and (if hardened) it doesn't end in that heartstopping little "Oh no, my white knight thinks I'm an ass for intimating that love is more important than honor" moment you get when he isn't hardened. 

[Raiynsong]

So this is my second playthrough and this time as a HNF I've decided I'm going to try romancing Zev, Leili and Alistair. Zev is interested and Leli a little more so. but of course Alistair gets interested much faster. I'm trying to be careful this time to lead him on but not kiss him or anything so I can get the others's approvals higher. We are in camp, he asks me about my relationship with Leliana, which totally cracked me up! I mean I had the rose dialog and the one after that, but no bed or anything, so I was suprised he was getting possessive all of a sudden. I basically beat around the bush about it, until he asks for a verbal commitment and there seems to be no graceful way out of it so I figure ok, i'll say yes but then do what I want anyway. The very next thing is Leliana breaking up with me (!! we haven't even kissed yet, basically just talked about shoes!!!) I was a bit disappointed cause I was hoping to continue trying to string her along, just to see what Alistair would do, but I guess she won't share either.  And she doesn't even let me try to argue her into staying, or let me say, ok  I'll break up with Alistair. The very next thing after THAT is Alistair asking me to bed.Of course I say yes --- he's a hard man to deny. So after that I ask where this is going and of course got horrid endings.---oh yeah, he want ME to commit but he won't promise me ANYthing, that idiot.  Luckily I saved and went back and gave him the answer he wanted to hear, for no point reduction. so I'm SOL with the bard but at least Zevran is still interested.  Z is definitely getting a bit sweeter now, which is cute. I'm doing a city elf next time and he'll be my target.

Modifié par Raiynsong, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:20 .

[Bratt1204]

Modifié par Bratt1204, 27 janvier 2010 - 02:47 .

[Bratt1204]

Jaulen wrote...

My first playthrough with romancing Alistair (CEF), I had hardened him (the line for hardening was natural for the character I was playing to say).

So she was totally okay with putting Alistair on the throne sans Anora and being the "Shadow Queen."

She also left to go rebuild the grey wardens. After all, it was all she really had left that was worthy, and being a grey warden let her find a sense of honor and purpose. And what is more noble than protecting everyone? Figure it was much more true to character than asking for riches, being chancellor, etc.

Heck, after ruling for awhile, he left Denerim to be with me and help me rebuild the grey wardens, and didn't leave my side (he didn't even go to Weisxxxop). So even unmarried, and me running off with Zevran to go recruiting, he came after me. Gave me warm fuzzies since by that time I had started reading DA Wiki and learned of the different epis, and was frankly a little suprized at the ending I got.

I kind of figure it was an ending bug.....

********

I haven't played as a HNF yet, but even then, I can't see any character I played wanting to be Queen (maybe King if I played a HNM). After all, the kingdom will need an heir...and if Alistair doesn't provide that heir (and recall he won't be very keen about the whole bastard idea, but it would be okay for you to be his mistress since you can't have his child (hardened of course)), then what the heck did you bother fighting Loghain for and putting Alistair on the throne? Once he's dead the throne would either go to any of Teagan's gits, or the country would be plunged back into civil war....IMHO playing your HNF to be queen is the ultimate selfish act, and a total waste of everything you stood for and fought for up to that point. So yeah, the more I think about it, I could never play a character to be Queen.

Having chosen the HFN route I myself do not consider marring Alistair and becoming Queen as a selfish act. Being from a Noble family, it is only natural for a female to marry to become Queen. After all, the relationship began before even knowing he was heir to the throne. I do not view wanting to marry the man you love and being a strong Queen to be anything other than normal, in this situation. I believe the HN story line is very deep and opens the door for much larger plot continuations (in expansions). I did not choose to put Alistair on the throne and I to rule along side him simply because I wanted to be Queen. My character is a very strong Noble Female and believe this would only aide/support Alistair's rule of Ferelden. As far as the 'heir' situation, I believe Bioware put so much emphasis on this for a reason. After all, this is an RPG - anything can happen. It is never stated that Grey Warden CANNOT (foreshadowing) have children, only that Alistair was never aware of anyone having children with the taint. No reason to believe that my couple could not have healthy, happy heirs. Again, a fantastic storyline for future expansions. I hope Bioware goes somewhere exciting with it.

[SurelyForth]

I'm OK with making a HN Queen because it's not my belief that your blood/breeding determines your worthiness as a ruler (and hardened Alistair admits as much during the Landsmeet). Alistair might want an heir because he thinks that's what is expected, but he doesn't put up a big fight about it. I think there could be a conversation at some point about just naming a successor the nobles would be ok with. With some proactivity and a solid vetting system, a War of Succession could be avoided. Also, the game presents you with an option to put a solo non-Theirin on the throne and everyone is fine with that, even though she makes no move to have an heir herself.

Of course, I've also had a HN who would die before making herself Queen, even though she loves Alistair and made him King. She's become accustomed to being able to work outside of the law  and she has a post-Blight agenda that she can carry out more easily from behind the scenes.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:07 .

[Jaulen]

I don't think a twice-blighted Alistair WOULD be able to have kids with a fellow grey warden....just too much *hmm let's ignore one of the major the premises of the storyline* (recall, Alistair's mother was an elf Grey Warden, and Alistair was able to sense darkspawn/be sensed by them pretty dang fast compared to other GW recruits) (and DG has mentioned in other threads that two GWs cannot have kids.....so I'm going with what the writer says here)



And it's natural for a HNF to marry (after all, what is a HNF for except to tie together houses and build relationships between Banns and other countries?), they aren't there just to become Queen. heck, it would be politically expedient and better for Ferelden, if Alistair was married off to a forgein princess.



And you can support/aid Alisatir as King just as much, maybe even more, by being Chancellor as you could Queen, or by NOT being involved with the court at all, or only superficially. After all, not being mired so deeply into the politics, you'd be able to move more freely, and possibly hear more information that may be of use to the throne.



And the whole point of the Landsmeet, was not only to checkmate Loghain, but it was to ensure that *can't recall name, Ferelden uniter, first King*'s bloodline remained on the throne.



So I still stand by my assertion, that making yourself Queen, is a very selfish act. And, really, if you're playing a PC who has understood WHAT the grey wardens ARE, it's also a very unhonorable thing to do.



Yeah, the romance aspect of it might be nice and all, all butterflies and roses, but harsh reality will set in down the line. (oooh, interesting for potential storyline, after the *golden age* of Alistair and his Queen, with no heir the country is thrown into turmoil)



And no matter, even if you DO have an heir appointed, there will still be a War of Succession, maybe not right away, but SOMEONE will be ticked off that they/their line wasn't picked to be the King's heir and will start to immediately undermine that new line's rule. (Hello English history, heck, Hello Dwarfs!)

[Jaulen]

Yes, you CAN put Anora on the throne solo, but the epiliogue for Ferelden isn't that great with her as solo queen.



And without her having a claim to the original bloodline, I'm sure the nobles would be a lot less pushy about her having a kid. After all, Alistair is either dead, or has renounced all claims to the throne for himself or future children, so if Anora dies childless, the nobles would be thinking *yeah! now WE can try to get our family on the throne*



Heck Teagan and Eamon's git would be the next likely place to look for the next King/Queen.

[ejoslin]

Cousland blood would further cement the country's security, especially since some may not be happy about Anora being disposed. There were many who thought Bryce Cousland should be king. And if a female PC were to get pregnant by someone else, there would still be noble blood on the throne (and yes, she always tells Alistair that is her intention). My NHFs always make themselves queen, not because they want to be queen, but because Couslands always do their duty. Usually it's purely political, she and Alistair are best friends, not lovers or former lovers.  She knows Alistair is weak, and she knows that Anora is selfish and power hungry.  She would far rather be off just building the gray wardens with Zevran, and in fact does that, but always takes care of her country first.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:43 .

[Addai]

Jaulen wrote...

I don't think a twice-blighted Alistair WOULD be able to have kids with a fellow grey warden....just too much *hmm let's ignore one of the major the premises of the storyline* (recall, Alistair's mother was an elf Grey Warden, and Alistair was able to sense darkspawn/be sensed by them pretty dang fast compared to other GW recruits) (and DG has mentioned in other threads that two GWs cannot have kids.....so I'm going with what the writer says here)

Your character doesn't know David Gaider, however.    All they know is that Alistair thinks you can't.

So I still stand by my assertion, that making yourself Queen, is a very selfish act. And, really, if you're playing a PC who has understood WHAT the grey wardens ARE, it's also a very unhonorable thing to do.

Excuse me on behalf of my HNF, but she did not want to become a Grey Warden- she was forced into it and feels no particular loyalty to the order, certainly not to give her entire life to them.  Even so, with an order that is completely decimated and discredited, is it not a wee bit of advantage for recruiting and re-establishment to have two GWs on the throne?

Yeah, the romance aspect of it might be nice and all, all butterflies and roses, but harsh reality will set in down the line. (oooh, interesting for potential storyline, after the *golden age* of Alistair and his Queen, with no heir the country is thrown into turmoil)

And no matter, even if you DO have an heir appointed, there will still be a War of Succession, maybe not right away, but SOMEONE will be ticked off that they/their line wasn't picked to be the King's heir and will start to immediately undermine that new line's rule. (Hello English history, heck, Hello Dwarfs!)

The Couslands are second in line to the throne.  No one has any greater claim to the throne than the heir of a Theirin and a Cousland.   Arguably, your human noble PC has a greater claim to the throne than Alistair does.  It is not butterflies and roses to appoint yourself Queen.  That is why, I'm sure, the game has it set up so that you do this in the context of the Landsmeet, not in the tent with Alistair ("can I be your queen?  wouldn't that be fun?")  Naturally you could roleplay it in different ways, but your Cousland character should know what is up with Ferelden politics and should know exactly what she is doing.

[SurelyForth]

None of the endings mention an heir being born, no matter what combination of rulers you choose. I kind of get the feeling that, due to the fact that either there is a non-Warden solo ruler who has no desire to marry OR there's always at least one Warden on the throne, a lack of heir is something that is inevitable.

[Jaulen]

How many of our characters WANTED to become GW's? (not having played all the origin stories yet) Aren't we ALL conscripted?



And when I first heard that due to the blight two GW's probably wouldn't be able to have kids, I thought, "Hmm, makes sense to me!" Heck, the blight in the dark spawn kills the land they are running around on for any amount of time.....and then after all you see (esepcailly in the deep roads) with what happens to blighted beings.....eeew....



How is it better to have TWO GW's on the throne for recruitment? Wouldn't one of you have to be running around doing the recruiting/joining rituals/potentially conscripting (and how popular would THAT make a King or Queen)?



And I won't address the whole Therin and Cousland baby thing.....only going to happen in fanfic. (Hmmm, 'nother interesting potential, Therin and Cousland baby, triple blighted, is evil that threatens to destroy Ferelden and the Morrigan old-god baby swoops in to save the day....THAT would be keeping with the dark thread of the game)

[Addai]

The taint can be mastered, as is obvious from the existence of not only Grey Wardens but of mabari who have been healed of it and act as Grey Wardens even though they never went through the Joining. Very little seems to be understood about the taint, in fact.



Re. your character being conscripted: Even if they were, they can have very different feelings about that fact and about the Wardens. My character doesn't feel there was much honor in forcing her to agree to join their order as condition for saving her life in front of her dying father and then concealing what it entails. You don't have to play this as though the GWs were great and peachy, you know.

[SurelyForth]

At the end of the game, the Wardens are redeemed in the eyes of Fereldens and foreign Wardens are on the way in. Since whoever is on the throne is pro-Warden, and with Amaranthine being donated to the cause, the Wardens are in a great position to recruit even without the PC running the day to day operations.

[ejoslin]

Ummmm, just because it can't be Alistair's baby doesn't mean that the HNF can't get pregnant -- my HNF(s) have never had sex with Alistair and never will and Alistair, practical man that he becomes, does tell the HNF that he probably should be glad that she's trying to make an heir with someone else. And Alistair obviously can get someone pregnant as well. And you can be queen, chancellor, AND rebuild the gray wardens. And if it's purely a political marriage, the people really like you, I mean REALLY like you, and Alistair is obviously leaving the ruling to you.



And both the Dalish elf and the dwarf noble need to become gray wardens or die, for very different reasons. With mage, it's very clear it's a far better life than the circle. The others could go either way I suppose.

[Addai]

I wondered if that was not the writers leaving things open. In many of the endings, it sounds like Alistair leaves the kingship to go back to full time GW. I always assumed that meant an heir was in place and he felt free to leave the throne.

[SidheKate]

I think people can do selfish things by rationalizing themselves into it, which seems like a very HNF thing to do. She knows that Grey Warden die about thirty years after the Joining... and then she meets Avernus who is able to suppress the taint and live longer, and who has done some very dark research into the power of the blood. She knows that it is difficult for Grey Warden to have children, and yet she later learns of at least one ritual where there is a guarantee for a child (if only one is a GW)...

At some point you can decide that your character is just comfortable with morally ambiguous choices. Ferelden needs an heir, so she will do what she has to do in order to make that happen. That means not ruling out options like blood magic and investigating other possibilities. Maybe hunting down some evil, talking darkspawn in the future. Since we're talking about Alistair being twice blighted, then we can talk about the possibility of burning through the taint (see Fiona). Not that your character knows a thing about that, but it is about your character convincing herself that she is strong enough to "find a way" if you choose for her to go that route.

Selfish? Maybe, but as I said, you can rationalize it away. If she walks away from him, it's over. If the two of them stay together, maybe she can find a solution just like she raised an army of men, elves, dwarfs, mages, destroyed an Archdeamon and beat back the blight with the help of just one other Warden.

Modifié par SidheKate, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:40 .

[Jaulen]

Taint isn't THAT mastered if it will still kill you in the end. (and not to quibble here, but a dog system isn't the same as a human system, and GW's ALSO ingest blood of an archdemon during the joining, not just darkspawn blood, AND dogs get some sort of medication to help them through blight-sickness)



Oh yeah, how would THAT go over with the nobles......if they find out that the HNF Queen got preggers by a third party other than her husband and King....



Beheading offense wouldn't you think?

(since the whole idea of a female birthing a bastard always seems to be more distasteful to the nobility than a male having bastard offspring)



Wardens are redeemed in the eyes of Ferelden, but, don't you think with the majority of forgein GWs coming from Orlais, that it would be so much MORE palatable to the populace to have a Ferelden GW leader? (after all, the war of independence is still fresh in people's minds, and what harsh task-masters the Orlesians were....the game even mentions that, it's just with the Blight on, Orlais becomes a secondary worry) Even bettre, have an Orlesian GW going around conscripting Fereldens....sure recipe for disaster.

[Sialater]

Uh, as far as the heir thing goes... why go to all that trouble to stick Avernus in that tower with his chemistry set if he can't fix that? A couple rounds of blood magic IVF or something and an heir is created.



I've been Chancellor and I'm about to be a rather shrewd Queen. (I proposed in Landsmeet, it was funny.)

[Riona45]

ejoslin wrote...

But . . . the stuff you're quoting happens when he falls in love (and before), and it's only one conversation.  Then you have that break where he's saying, "Anything you need, my dear?"  With nothing else there until the Landsmeet, where unless you've played the game before, you most likely end up dumped.  I never said he falls out of love, though, I said he distances himself.  You go from that smoldering, "My command is your desire" to the fairly cold, "Anything you need, my dear?" 

I never took that line as cold, just familiar.  It's OK--he need not be smoldering every time he talks to me.
Also, it's not like you *have* to make Alistair the king.  In my game, I told Alistair that Anora and I made an alliance and that I plan to support her as queen despite Arl Eamon's intentions.  He was very happy to hear that.

[DreGregoire]

Heh, I have a hero on my ps3 that is at -100 with Alistair because I messed with him. It's awesome and can be scary if you mess with him too much. LOL. I usually try to get along with Alistair because he is my brother warden, but every now and then I just gotta mess with him too

[Sandtigress]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't find out about the difficulty of conceiving thing until the post-Landsmeet discussion, yes? For the most part, our Wardens are largely in the dark about all things Grey Warden - we didn't know about the nightmares or short lifespan until after, sometimes long after, we undertook the joining.



If this is the case, its not selfish at all for the HNF to declare herself Alistair's queen - she doesn't know about the difficulty of producing an heir until its too late, and then its kind of hard to go back on the declaration.



But all that's only if my memory serves me correctly.

[SurelyForth]

On the Warden topic, since one of the possible PC's for Awakenings is an Orlesian Warden Commander, we'll find out firsthand how big an issue it is for Fereldens.

Also, if I remember correctly, even Loghain doesn't seem repulsed by the Orlesian Wardens coming in if he's around at the end of the game. He mentions them arriving soon in the same manner that Alistair does Post-Coronation and there's nothing there to indicate that he feels it's a bad thing. If HE can put aside his feelings at that point, I don't see why others can't.

Re: Heir- Alistair will tell you during one conversation (the "where do you see this going between us?" one) that two Wardens having children together is almost (or maybe just plain) impossible. You have to choose the option about not having a future with one another to trigger that.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:58 .

[Addai]

Jaulen wrote...
 Even bettre, have an Orlesian GW going around conscripting Fereldens....sure recipe for disaster.

You're assuming that conscriptions will be necessary.  With everyone in Ferelden proclaiming the Grey Wardens heroes and saviors and the Blight in fresh memory, I doubt that recruiting will be a big problem.  It was when people had forgotten what a Blight was like, and people began to think the darkspawn had been eradicated, that the order declined.  Your prestige as Hero of Ferelden is one of the best recruiting tools, and that is all the more potent if you are also the ruler.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:59 .

[Riona45]

Jaulen wrote...
(recall, Alistair's mother was an elf Grey Warden, and Alistair was able to sense darkspawn/be sensed by them pretty dang fast compared to other GW recruits)

I don't think it's ever been confirmed that Alistair is Fiona's child.  It's plausible, but until it's confirmed it's only speculation.

[ejoslin]

Riona45 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

But . . . the stuff you're quoting happens when he falls in love (and before), and it's only one conversation.  Then you have that break where he's saying, "Anything you need, my dear?"  With nothing else there until the Landsmeet, where unless you've played the game before, you most likely end up dumped.  I never said he falls out of love, though, I said he distances himself.  You go from that smoldering, "My command is your desire" to the fairly cold, "Anything you need, my dear?" 

I never took that line as cold, just familiar.  It's OK--he need not be smoldering every time he talks to me.
Also, it's not like you *have* to make Alistair the king.  In my game, I told Alistair that Anora and I made an alliance and that I plan to support her as queen despite Arl Eamon's intentions.  He was very happy to hear that.

Heh, you should hear Leliana's and Zevran's greetings if they're in love -- NOTHING familiar there.  Well, Leliana's is a bit annoying (Aren't YOU the sweet and attentive one), and Zevran's is just *swoon* (I am yours).  Maybe it's just comparing Alistair's change to Lel and Zev's changes does it seem he gets colder.

I'm not an Alistair fangirl, though.  I make him king in various ways, but usually don't romance him, and if I DO romance him, it's because I plan to feed him to the arch demon.  Alistair's ending very much depends on my PC's origin.  CIty elf, he is on the throne no matter what.  HNF, he is also on the throne in a political marriage.  The others don't really have a vested interest so it depends on my mood.  There's at least two circumstances where if you don't make him king he leads a miserable existence (one where he disappears, one where he becomes a drunk) so it's kinder to let him be under Anora's thumb.

Actually, I see Alistair very much a tragic hero.  The guy rarely gets a happy ending.  He's at his best when he gets to sacrifice himself or rebuild the gray wardens, but either way, that leaves Anora in charge, and that brings harm to the city elves and possibly the mages.