158 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Sandtigress wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't find out about the difficulty of conceiving thing until the post-Landsmeet discussion, yes? For the most part, our Wardens are largely in the dark about all things Grey Warden - we didn't know about the nightmares or short lifespan until after, sometimes long after, we undertook the joining.

If this is the case, its not selfish at all for the HNF to declare herself Alistair's queen - she doesn't know about the difficulty of producing an heir until its too late, and then its kind of hard to go back on the declaration.

But all that's only if my memory serves me correctly.

You're wrong.  You can find out when you ask Alistair where you think it's going.  If you tell him you're not sure you have a future together, he tells you you probably can't have children.  But again, with my HNF, it's moot -- they're not having sex, not going to have sex, they're friends, they're war buddies, it's the bastard prince pairing with the daughter and possibly current head of the most powerful house in Ferelden (Fergus is assumed dead, and the HNF allies have already expressed willingness to help her get her Terynir back), whose father many felt should be king.  If anything, marrying a Cousland brings more legitimacy to his claim to the throne than marrying Anora would.  And uniting the country should be the first priority.

[Riona45]

Jaulen wrote...

How many of our characters WANTED to become GW's? (not having played all the origin stories yet) Aren't we ALL conscripted?

*raises hand*

My mage did.  Of course, she was going to be conscripted anyway, but I played it where she was happy to become a Warden. 

[Bratt1204]

ejoslin wrote...

Cousland blood would further cement the country's security, especially since some may not be happy about Anora being disposed. There were many who thought Bryce Cousland should be king. And if a female PC were to get pregnant by someone else, there would still be noble blood on the throne (and yes, she always tells Alistair that is her intention). My NHFs always make themselves queen, not because they want to be queen, but because Couslands always do their duty. Usually it's purely political, she and Alistair are best friends, not lovers or former lovers.  She knows Alistair is weak, and she knows that Anora is selfish and power hungry.  She would far rather be off just building the gray wardens with Zevran, and in fact does that, but always takes care of her country first.

Very strong points brought up.

[Riona45]

ejoslin wrote...
And both the Dalish elf and the dwarf noble need to become gray wardens or die, for very different reasons. With mage, it's very clear it's a far better life than the circle. The others could go either way I suppose.

Well, with the mage origin you are left in a position where you either would be severely punished if you weren't recruited, or asked to leave anyway because you've been "tainted" (reputation-wise) even though you did what you're superiors asked you to do.

[Creature 1]

Riona45 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And both the Dalish elf and the dwarf noble need to become gray wardens or die, for very different reasons. With mage, it's very clear it's a far better life than the circle. The others could go either way I suppose.

Well, with the mage origin you are left in a position where you either would be severely punished if you weren't recruited, or asked to leave anyway because you've been "tainted" (reputation-wise) even though you did what you're superiors asked you to do.

Leave?  To go where?  Tranquilization for you! 

Of course if they mentioned the minor details like dying young and being sterile, my mages might have had second thoughts, or made alternative plans to run away to Antiva or race to Denerim to recover their phylactery. 

[Sandtigress]

ejoslin wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't find out about the difficulty of conceiving thing until the post-Landsmeet discussion, yes? For the most part, our Wardens are largely in the dark about all things Grey Warden - we didn't know about the nightmares or short lifespan until after, sometimes long after, we undertook the joining.

If this is the case, its not selfish at all for the HNF to declare herself Alistair's queen - she doesn't know about the difficulty of producing an heir until its too late, and then its kind of hard to go back on the declaration.

But all that's only if my memory serves me correctly.

You're wrong.  You can find out when you ask Alistair where you think it's going.  If you tell him you're not sure you have a future together, he tells you you probably can't have children.  But again, with my HNF, it's moot -- they're not having sex, not going to have sex, they're friends, they're war buddies, it's the bastard prince pairing with the daughter and possibly current head of the most powerful house in Ferelden (Fergus is assumed dead, and the HNF allies have already expressed willingness to help her get her Terynir back), whose father many felt should be king.  If anything, marrying a Cousland brings more legitimacy to his claim to the throne than marrying Anora would.  And uniting the country should be the first priority.

Ah, okay.  Well, none of my PCs have ever chosen this option.    So we go in blind to Landsmeet, and I maintain that since there are a lot of good political reasons for them to rule together, its not a selfish act since she doesn't know about problems with heirs.  Heck, meta-gaming, since you know that Anora won't remarry its not a bad option anyways, since either with the two of you there's a possibility, however slight, of getting an heir while with Anora there will be none, and you're of better blood than anyone else out there being a Cousland.

[Bratt1204]

Addai67 wrote...

The taint can be mastered, as is obvious from the existence of not only Grey Wardens but of mabari who have been healed of it and act as Grey Wardens even though they never went through the Joining. Very little seems to be understood about the taint, in fact.
.

I completely agree with you that the 'taint can be mastered'. That is my thought process and would make for a fantastic continuing storyline.

[Riona45]

ejoslin wrote...


Actually, I see Alistair very much a tragic hero.  The guy rarely gets a happy ending.  He's at his best when he gets to sacrifice himself or rebuild the gray wardens, but either way, that leaves Anora in charge, and that brings harm to the city elves and possibly the mages.

I don't see your point about the mages, sorry.  If you are a PC mage, you can ask her to divorce the Chantry from the Circle and she'll do it.  That shows me that she's hardly a zealot.

As for the bit about the city elves, people make it sound like Anora leads a full-on genocidal campaign against them.  Going by the entry about it in the wiki, that seems to be quite exaggerated.  I'm not saying what happens to the city elves is OK, but at the same time, I don't think the concept of Alienages (ghettos) is OK either, and they are still there no matter who's on the throne.
And on top of that, your PC wouldn't have knowledge of such future events when deciding who's going to be on the throne.

[Sandtigress]

Riona45 wrote...

I don't see your point about the mages, sorry.  If you are a PC mage, you can ask her to divorce the Chantry from the Circle and she'll do it.  That shows me that she's hardly a zealot.

As for the bit about the city elves, people make it sound like Anora leads a full-on genocidal campaign against them.  Going by the entry about it in the wiki, that seems to be quite exaggerated.  I'm not saying what happens to the city elves is OK, but at the same time, I don't think the concept of Alienages (ghettos) is OK either, and they are still there no matter who's on the throne.
And on top of that, your PC wouldn't have knowledge of such future events when deciding who's going to be on the throne.

In Alistair's case though, he can put Shianni on the Council, which implies that the lot for Alienage elves would have the chance to improve greatly since there's someone who can make her voice heard where those in power will hear it.

[Riona45]

Creature 1 wrote...
Leave?  To go where? 

I meant "leave" to join the Wardens, willingly or not.

PS: I recall a journal entry saying that the mage PC joining the Warden's was actually Irving's intention for him/her all along (that was the real reason he wanted you to meet Duncan).

Modifié par Riona45, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[ejoslin]

Riona45 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Actually, I see Alistair very much a tragic hero.  The guy rarely gets a happy ending.  He's at his best when he gets to sacrifice himself or rebuild the gray wardens, but either way, that leaves Anora in charge, and that brings harm to the city elves and possibly the mages.

I don't see your point about the mages, sorry.  If you are a PC mage, you can ask her to divorce the Chantry from the Circle and she'll do it.  That shows me that she's hardly a zealot.

As for the bit about the city elves, people make it sound like Anora leads a full-on genocidal campaign against them.  Going by the entry about it in the wiki, that seems to be quite exaggerated.  I'm not saying what happens to the city elves is OK, but at the same time, I don't think the concept of Alienages (ghettos) is OK either, and they are still there no matter who's on the throne.
And on top of that, your PC wouldn't have knowledge of such future events when deciding who's going to be on the throne.

You never picked the templars over the mages I take it, though Alistair I'm not sure handles it better (I honestly don't remember -- and I could be misremembering what triggers the particular ending I'm thinking of, I've done 14 play throughs eeep).  And Anora builds a university for the humans while the elves are starving, and comes down hard on them when they riot.  No, I don't think she was a good queen.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

As for the bit about the city elves, people make it sound like Anora leads a full-on genocidal campaign against them.  Going by the entry about it in the wiki, that seems to be quite exaggerated.  I'm not saying what happens to the city elves is OK, but at the same time, I don't think the concept of Alienages (ghettos) is OK either, and they are still there no matter who's on the throne.
And on top of that, your PC wouldn't have knowledge of such future events when deciding who's going to be on the throne.

My city elf put 2 and 2 together by recognizing that Anora and not Cailan had been running the country, and that therefore Anora did not give a damn about the alienages.  She tells you about the unrest in the alienage as though those silly elves should be happy and tra-la-la'ing since they didn't have to fight in Ostagar.  Granted, my character's opinion of Anora was colored by seeing her as being just like Loghain, and Loghain she wanted to tear limb for limb, so there was no way she was going to put Anora anywhere near the throne.  Alistair does not seem affected one way or another by the plight of the elves, but you know you have influence with Alistair, and that Anora is only using you.

[Riona45]

Sandtigress wrote...
In Alistair's case though, he can put Shianni on the Council, which implies that the lot for Alienage elves would have the chance to improve greatly since there's someone who can make her voice heard where those in power will hear it.

True.  But apparently a City Elf PC can become a Bann representing the other city elves regardless of who is the monarch.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
In Alistair's case though, he can put Shianni on the Council, which implies that the lot for Alienage elves would have the chance to improve greatly since there's someone who can make her voice heard where those in power will hear it.

True.  But apparently a City Elf PC can become a Bann representing the other city elves regardless of who is the monarch.

With Anora, however, it's a meaningless gesture she made to appease a Warden who helped her hang on to power.  Alistair puts an elf on his royal council over the top of objections.  I believe he does this regardless of whether the PC is an elf or not.

[Riona45]

ejoslin wrote...

You never picked the templars over the mages I take it, though Alistair I'm not sure handles it better (I honestly don't remember -- and I could be misremembering what triggers the particular ending I'm thinking of, I've done 14 play throughs eeep).

 

I've course I've never picked the templars over the mages.  I don't think I ever would.

I'm pretty sure a "bad" ending for the Circle isn't "better" depending on who the monarch is.

No, I don't think she was a good queen.

I'm not saying people need to think she's a good queen, but I also think a lot of things that are said about her are inaccurate and/or exaggerated, at least when I compare what's said about her to what the wiki actually says.  I know it doesn't say *everything*, but I'm pretty sure that if Anora commited systematic genocide against the elves, it would say that and not "Anora might first ease restrictions on the elves for a time." 

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...
With Anora, however, it's a meaningless gesture she made to appease a Warden who helped her hang on to power.

I think that's a matter of interpretation and opinion.  Obtaining a title of nobility probably isn't "meaningless" to the person who gets it...

Modifié par Riona45, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:45 .

[SurelyForth]

If you side with Templars and don't request that they be freed from the Chantry, the ending is the same with Anora or Alistair, IIRC. The Tower is cleared and Cullen becomes a tyrannical Knight-Commander when Gregoire retires.



My issue with the Denerim Alienage elves is that it's hard to use them as a measure of whether or not a ruler is "good", because I think their situation is seen as unfortunate but inevitable by most every non-elf in the game (and even some elves). Maric is considered a good king, but they didn't exactly flourish under his rule. They are better off, certainly, if Alistair is king but Anora is less actively against them than she is just handling the situation the way it has traditionally been handled, for good or ill.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
With Anora, however, it's a meaningless gesture she made to appease a Warden who helped her hang on to power.

I think that's a matter of interpretation and opinion.  Obtaining a title of nobility probably isn't "meaningless" to the person who gets it...

Anora had had 5 years of opportunity to appoint a bann for the alienage.  She "got religion" about the elves only after she found she needed an alienage elf to keep her throne.  I don't think she is genocidal or tyrannical by any means, nor do I think an Alistair kingship means all problems for the elves are over, natch.  It's a matter of doing the best you can.

[Riona45]

SurelyForth wrote...

My issue with the Denerim Alienage elves is that it's hard to use them as a measure of whether or not a ruler is "good", because I think their situation is seen as unfortunate but inevitable by most every non-elf in the game (and even some elves). Maric is considered a good king, but they didn't exactly flourish under his rule. They are better off, certainly, if Alistair is king but Anora is less actively against them than she is just handling the situation the way it has traditionally been handled, for good or ill.

That's basically how I see it.  I haven't beaten the game yet (holding out for Return to Ostagar) so I don't know how detailed Anora's epilogue is, but the wiki doesn't go into detail about the food riot, how it started, or how, exactly, Anora handled it.  I'm not going to assume that the outcome was a "total genocidal bloodbath" (the impression I get from some people talking about it), and again, if it was *that* bad I'm sure the wiki would have said that outright.  If Anora starts out by easing restrictions on the city elves, that already makes her less racist than your average idiot on the street in this game.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...
Anora had had 5 years of opportunity to appoint a bann for the alienage.  She "got religion" about the elves only after she found she needed an alienage elf to keep her throne.  I don't think she is genocidal or tyrannical by any means, nor do I think an Alistair kingship means all problems for the elves are over, natch.  It's a matter of doing the best you can.

Point taken, but again, the wiki does say that Anora starts off by easing restrictions for a time.  It could be much better, and there's no way to be completely sure about her intentions, but as I said before, would the average human in this game have done as much?  I think most would be content to do nothing or *worse*.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Anora had had 5 years of opportunity to appoint a bann for the alienage.  She "got religion" about the elves only after she found she needed an alienage elf to keep her throne.  I don't think she is genocidal or tyrannical by any means, nor do I think an Alistair kingship means all problems for the elves are over, natch.  It's a matter of doing the best you can.

Point taken, but again, the wiki does say that Anora starts off by easing restrictions for a time.  It could be much better, and there's no way to be completely sure about her intentions, but as I said before, would the average human in this game have done as much?  I think most would be content to do nothing or *worse*.

If my city elf had had any doubt, Anora herself erased it when she asked "Alistair would make the same promises I suppose, but which would you rather have- the gratitude of a weak king or of a strong queen?"

Wheels turn, PC thinks "hmm, gratitude of an a) weak king who listens to me on just about everything or a strong queen who is manipulative and has a proven track record of not giving a fig about my people... I'll take a), thank you!"  Not that she thought Alistair would be a weak king.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:14 .

[Sialater]

Anora seems to treat player elves abominably anyway. That right there is clue #1. She treated my mage elf poorly and sucked up to my HNF.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...
If my city elf had had any doubt, Anora herself erased it when she asked "Alistair would make the same promises I suppose, but which would you rather have- the gratitude of a weak king or of a strong queen?"

Wheels turn, PC thinks "hmm, gratitude of an a) weak king who listens to me on just about everything or a strong queen who is manipulative and has a proven track record of not giving a fig about my people... I'll take a), thank you!"  Not that she thought Alistair would be a weak king.

Not to argue with you, but share my opinion:

--I think Anora would be a better ruler than Alistair.  I don't think Alistair is "weak" as a person, just not better as a ruler, and unhardened Alistair has no desire to even try his hand at politics.
--I don't think she doesn't care about her country, and I don't recall her having a proven track record of not caring.
--I don't think it's a bad thing that she's manipulative (and being a good manipulator doesn't make one a "bad person").  In fact, I believe being a good manipulator is essential to being a good, proactive ruler, including a benevolent one. 

[Riona45]

Sialater wrote...

Anora seems to treat player elves abominably anyway. That right there is clue #1. She treated my mage elf poorly and sucked up to my HNF.

Haven't played an elf, so can you give me an example?

[Sialater]

It's been awhile since my elf mage play, but she seemed especially sneery. And there is a definite difference in how she talked to the elf versus the HNF.



Also, when you confront her with her father's selling elves, she says something like, it's regrettable, but it's only elves.