158 réponses à ce sujet

[AnniLau]

SurelyForth wrote...
he finds someone who is willing to enter into an arrangement to be Queen/produce an heir and that's all that is between them.

Heir and a spare, probably.

[SurelyForth]

AnniLau wrote...

odiedragon wrote...

I wouldn't call the first one better,
but that's just my opinion.  They're just different.  One she has power
in her own right, the other they're a true couple on the throne.  I
guess you could call the other better, but I don't personally.

Traveling about showing the Ferelden people how much he adores his bride sounds like no one is taking care of business to me. Who's ruling while the royal couple is off frolicking? Eamon? Why didn't we just make him king in the first place then?

Well, Kings and Queens regularly toured their lands, and especially after a time of war and Blight it would be something that would really raise morale amongst the people.  I like the idea, myself, especially since the PC helped so many commoners along the way and is a hero regardless of whether the card states it or not.

[Thiefy]

Addai67 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

What *I* find extremely selfish is that knowing Alistair has to let you go for the sake of propiety, you force and push him to keep the relationship going - knowing he has to get married somewhere down the line. It's not just that you are ok with being his concubine, shadow queen, or personal ****, but you do realize you are breaking someone's marriage, and possibly their family just for your own self satisfaction? What exactly is honorable about that?

Not sure what scenario you're reacting to here, however in feudal/monarchical societies people understood political marriages and also accepted concubinage much more than modern notions of romantic love would allow for.  Even if it's not Lady Cousland, there would certainly be noblewomen willing to marry the king simply for the position it would afford them.  As long as Alistair is taking on the role of king because it's required of him rather than because he aspired to it, it's a small concession to his humanity to say that he should be able to keep his love so long as that doesn't threaten the country.

They may *accept* it, but that doesn't mean that they approve of it. Anora mentioned this with her first marriage to Calian - she swallowed her pride because she had no choice. Alistair doesn't like the idea either which is why he won't do it unharden, and why you have to talk him into it harden. That doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that you aren't breaking their marriage.

Being aware of something and liking it are two different things.

I can see people are going to keep disagreeing with me on this, and that's fine. I'm more traditional than them I guess, because I don't believe in cheating on someone, especially in marriage, and I don't believe in divorce. Politcal or not. This is going to be a case of different morals. Some people can sit back and stomach a FWB kind of relationship, I can't.

[Thiefy]

Sandtigress wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

There are no rules against kings being Grey Wardens. In the prologue of the game, it says very clearly that the Wardens numbered kings among them from the beginning. Anyone who has the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn are welcome.

I see Alistair as the rightful king, and I haven't had a character yet that liked Anora, though maybe my blood mage will. He hasn't had a chance to form an opinion on her yet. So after a Blight, I don't see there being a necessary conflict of interests over being king and being a Warden. And if he is both King and Warden, he will try to choose being a Warden over being king by slaying the Archdemon if you'll let him (long as you're not at 100 love/adore with a female PC, anyways) which says that even after becoming king, his priorities are in the right place.

It's been stated both in game, out of it and by David Gaider that Wardens need to remain politically neutral. In this case, you can always look out for the best interest of all peoples and all nations. You also don't get embroiled in wars. It makes for easier time dealing with countries and conscripting canindates if you remain neutral instead of favoring one over the other. Things are less sticky when you dont accidently pick the wrong side, and it makes for dealing with th threat of darkspawn less about loyalty and politics and more about just getting the job done.

That being said, it's hard to be politically neutral when you are a king....

Still doesn't negate the fact that Wardens have in fact, in the past, been kings.  I would agree its not the ideal situation, but if one sees that maintaining the political stability of one's nation is in the best interest of the Wardens in your country, then one could be King/Queen and still be upholding one's duties as a Warden.  Plus it would give you the ability to ensure the future of the order in the kingdom, of which Fereldan's Wardens are in sore need of as there are two of you in the whole country.

Oh I agree with you that Alistair is the better ruler, I put him on the throne everytime.

But I still think that there's probably some reprocussions for that somewhere down the line.

[AnniLau]

SurelyForth wrote...

Well, Kings and Queens regularly toured their lands, and especially after a time of war and Blight it would be something that would really raise morale amongst the people.  I like the idea, myself, especially since the PC helped so many commoners along the way and is a hero regardless of whether the card states it or not.

It's the way it's phrased...it sounds to me like they're off flitting about just for the fun of it.

Hmmm, oh, and if you haven't tried this, going back to camp from your epilogue save to talk to Alistair when you haven't made him king and instead are heading off to rebuild the Grey Wardens together generates a sweet little conversation. I like the response to  "You don't need to thank me" the best.

[odiedragon]

AnniLau wrote...

Traveling about showing the Ferelden people how much he adores his bride sounds like no one is taking care of business to me. Who's ruling while the royal couple is off frolicking? Eamon? Why didn't we just make him king in the first place then?

I highly doubt that the point of traveling, especially as king and queen, is for the purpose of showing off.  FIrst and formost, they have to deal with rebuilding from the Blight.  People are going to have more respect for rulers that actually come to them and see how they're faring and help them with their plight.  Ones that hole themselves up behind palace walls become distant and forgotten at best, hated and plotted against at worst.
I never saw that ending as a "vacation" or "frolicking" - nothing a monarch does is without political implications.
And besides, that's the job Eamon wanted when he pushed for Alistair to take the throne.  He states that he and Teagan have a claim through marriage, but Alistair's claim is better.  So he goes with the better option, most likely knowing that Alistair would keep him around to advise or be his regant.

[AnniLau]

odiedragon wrote...

I highly doubt that the point of traveling, especially as king and queen, is for the purpose of showing off.  FIrst and formost, they have to deal with rebuilding from the Blight.  People are going to have more respect for rulers that actually come to them and see how they're faring and help them with their plight.  Ones that hole themselves up behind palace walls become distant and forgotten at best, hated and plotted against at worst.
I never saw that ending as a "vacation" or "frolicking" - nothing a monarch does is without political implications.
And besides, that's the job Eamon wanted when he pushed for Alistair to take the throne.  He states that he and Teagan have a claim through marriage, but Alistair's claim is better.  So he goes with the better option, most likely knowing that Alistair would keep him around to advise or be his regant.

Well, like I said, phrasing. And maybe a personal aversion to the idea of more traveling after they've just spent a year hiking back and forth across the countryside. 

Modifié par AnniLau, 27 janvier 2010 - 09:54 .

[Sarielle]

Riona45 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And both the Dalish elf and the dwarf noble need to become gray wardens or die, for very different reasons. With mage, it's very clear it's a far better life than the circle. The others could go either way I suppose.

Well, with the mage origin you are left in a position where you either would be severely punished if you weren't recruited, or asked to leave anyway because you've been "tainted" (reputation-wise) even though you did what you're superiors asked you to do.

My mage was also a libertarian.



***Mage origin spoilers below, just a heads up****



She's in the process of annulling the Circle out of spite, because she utterly resents Irving going ahead and signing off on Jowan's traquilization (even though she also now thinks Jowan's a douche for leaving her hanging) -- gotta love the "I want to see it burn" line -- and while she hates the Templars and is superbly snarly with Gregoir, she hates mages betraying mages (as she sees it), and mages accepting "imprisonment" even more.



She was practically throwing herself at Duncan the minute she got wind of mages outside the tower. Even seeing what the Joining does and getting wind that there'll be more consequences, she STILL is happy she's out of the tower.

[Addai]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
They may *accept* it, but that doesn't mean that they approve of it. Anora mentioned this with her first marriage to Calian - she swallowed her pride because she had no choice. Alistair doesn't like the idea either which is why he won't do it unharden, and why you have to talk him into it harden. That doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that you aren't breaking their marriage.

Being aware of something and liking it are two different things.

I can see people are going to keep disagreeing with me on this, and that's fine. I'm more traditional than them I guess, because I don't believe in cheating on someone, especially in marriage, and I don't believe in divorce. Politcal or not. This is going to be a case of different morals. Some people can sit back and stomach a FWB kind of relationship, I can't.

Hey, my game choices have nothing to do with my personal morals.  LOL  My Dalish character who set Alistair up with Anora certainly didn't like it.  She was pragmatic, however, and willing to share him for the sake of the country, and thus made a bargain with Anora in which both of them got what they wanted- Anora, power, and Dalish warden, her love and her independence.  You don't honestly think Anora would be pining for Alistair's love, do you?  Come on.  She makes a sympathy play on you in order to, she hopes, get you out of the way.  Certainly she is worried about you undermining her by embarrassing her, but she also simply doesn't want anyone diluting her hold over the country, not even Alistair (she's going to get a rude surprise about that, I think).

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I can see people are going to keep disagreeing with me on this, and that's fine. I'm more traditional than them I guess, because I don't believe in cheating on someone, especially in marriage, and I don't believe in divorce. Politcal or not. This is going to be a case of different morals. Some people can sit back and stomach a FWB kind of relationship, I can't.

First of all, it's a video game.  People will do things they never would do in their real life.

Second of all, Alistair and the Warden could never be considered FWB.  He sticks with her, and even rebuilds the Grey Wardens with her, even if he married Anora to avert civil war.

 In some circumstances Alistair chooses to become king (the PC doesn't choose for him) if hardened, and will break up with the PC unless she points out to him that being king isn't a punishment.  In an ideal world he'd do his duty to his country AND marry the PC, but it usually doesn't work out that way.  He doesn't think it's fair to the warden to be with her and not be able to marry her, but if hardened, he will do what HE wants, not what he thinks is right for everyone else.

If Alistair ever loved the Warden, he stays in love.  Whomever he marries would never get his heart, but he'd certainly be a much happier person (therefore better husband I would assume) if he at least is with the woman he loves, though not on the level he'd prefer.  The question is, how many people need to be hurt by the marriage?  My guess is, again, whomever he marries knows about the Warden and wants to marry, not for love and fidelity, but to solidify an alliance.  

[Sabriana]

The one who really is required to swallow her pride is Anora. I'm beginning to feel that the woman really seems to get the raw end of the deal twice. First with Cailan, then with Alistair (if he can convince the PC to be his unacknowledged, publicly unclaimed piece on the side)

[Raiynsong]

my take on this is that as wardens, my mage and alistair needed to stay together to rebuild the grey wardens and the circle, and that Anora would be a good choice politically cause she'd reunite Loghrain's guys with the PC's guys (oh yeah Eamon isn't thrilled but he won't object much). That was my first go round, when my PC was an Elf Mage. This time I'm HNF so I'm probably gonna go for Queen.

[Thiefy]

@ Addai and ejoslin - you guys are taking my posts the wrong way. Someone posted it was selfish for HN to become Queen as it would never result in an heir.

My personal opinion, as I've said several times now, is that it is more selfish for someone to break a marriage, especially given that the marriage they would be breaking NEEDS to be made into a family. Political or not.

I feel this way because of my personal beliefs. Whatever you guys say, it doesn't matter to me honestly, because I'm not changing my mind. Sorry. Does this mean I will always play out my personal beliefs? No. I am not a lesbian or a bisexual yet I still have Leli's achievement.

I'm not saying or implying your own personal opinions are that of the PCs you play in game. Is this me slapping your hand and telling you off for being some little tart who holds no respect for herself? No. If that is how you play, fine by me. I'm not going to tell you what's right and what wrong. Whatever is acceptable is between you and your companions. Which is why I thought I had loaded my posts with enough disclaimers trying to show things from my POV.

Sure you can set up a political marriage, sure Alistair isn't the kind of guy to lead someone on, but mistakes do happen, and then what are you going to do when sh*t hits the fan?

@Addai specifically - No I don't think Anora was pining over Calian or Alistair, but there is still humilation in that your husband, the man who you took oathes with to the Maker, is having relations with another woman. I don't like....at all, but cheating is still cheating. Maybe if Calian paid more attention to her and his duties she wouldn't have been forced to play her hand, and Fereldan wouldn't be in the mess it's in. Or maybe she wouldn't have been the same wench she is during the landsmeet, I don't know, but nobody deserves to be cheated on.

For her it was more of a matter of pride than love, and it's clear she tries to pull your heart strings when she mentions your mother and Howe, but regardless, I don't think a wife should have to comepte for her husband's affections. If that's the case then he isn't much of a husband to begin with.


@ejoslin specifically- FWB was a term I used loosely. Alistair's loyalty to the PC isn't something I questioned. Putting that tangent aside, he still fully intends to break up with you because he believes it is wrong. You still need to talk him into staying with you and allowing you to be with him as a mistress - infact the only way for that to happen is if you change his personality through a quest.

I'm fully aware of what Alistair wants and what he is willing to do or not, harden or not.

He still intends to break up with you for propiety, and you have to remind him that he can act in his own interest.

I can't see a happy ending where you would accept to be someone's mistress. Maybe you and others can but I can't. I think that is wishful thinking on your part but if you can make it work, more power to you. It wouldn't be the first time court life has been more ....flavorful, to say the least, but I think it's a weird notion to think that there is a wife (power hungry or not) that would be happy knowing her husband is cheating on her. She may be able to swallow it in return for the power given to her but that doesn't make your cheating the right thing.

And, yes, it's still cheating even if all three of you agree to it. Which is why I said that little bit about me being traditional and morals. It's still cheating. Do I feel guilt about pixel cheating? Sometimes, but then I reload the game to become a pixel virgin again and still get to keep my acheviements.

So to clarify to everyone, I PERSONALLY think that being a mistress is more selfish than being a barren wife, because you break a marriage and possibly a family.

This was me rebuking a poster that said people who become queens are selfish. I believe a person who becomes a mistress is more selfish. She has her reasons as I've given mine.
 
But that whole speil I went on wasn't about what is more right or wrong or acceptable - all these things, marriage, mistresses, loyalty, etc, everything that my original super long post encompassed, was about concepts. There is no one canon Warden, or one canon ending. There is only what each of us got from the game personally, and how she grouped things as more appropiate or not and how a TRUE GW should act really irked me. I'm not here trying to convince people that my way is more right than others so I honestly don't know why you quoted and replied to me.

[ejoslin]

Ah, ToH, unfortunately your arguments I agree with at some level because I do not like Alistair as a romance partner. For many of the reasons you state. There are very few circumstances which I romance him at all, and he always ends up dumped when the PC understands he is not looking to the future with her, but is just living in the present.



However, when I play HNF, I do marry Alistair as a political arrangement and stay with Zevran. And I disagree that it's cheating if all agree to it. It's not an arrangement you would pick, but my HNF believes very strongly that her country needs her and this is the best way to unite Ferelden and rebuild it, but at the same time is completely in love with someone else. And since Alistair doesn't seem to mind her being with someone else and trying to create an heir that way (since they can't have one together), then it's a question, does she serve her country the best she can and have happiness, or does she shirk her duty for her own happiness, or does she give up the one person who matters to her and loves her completely just to serve a country and remain faithful to someone who doesn't even ask that of her.

[Addai]

Thief of Hearts, I'm not going to argue it with you as you obviously have strong opinions (even if you then say "play it as you want").. I was pointing out that it does not "break a family" nor "break a marriage" in a feudal society if the lord or lady has a paramour. You're imposing a modern mindset onto the situation that is not inherent. It's true that there could certainly be people in that context who are especially jealous, and in Maric's case everyone bent over backwards to protect Rowan (who probably was not as stupid as they all believed). However is that type of person going to knowingly enter into a political marriage wiith someone who is honest about the fact that his heart belongs to another? Arranged marriage is a pretty crude institution in itself, but the advantage is that you can come in with fewer stars in your eyes. I would not want to be the wife who realizes years down the road that Alistair has loved another woman during their whole life together. Even if he was faithful.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:11 .

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

Ah, ToH, unfortunately your arguments I agree with at some level because I do not like Alistair as a romance partner. For many of the reasons you state. There are very few circumstances which I romance him at all, and he always ends up dumped when the PC understands he is not looking to the future with her, but is just living in the present.

However, when I play HNF, I do marry Alistair as a political arrangement and stay with Zevran. And I disagree that it's cheating if all agree to it. It's not an arrangement you would pick, but my HNF believes very strongly that her country needs her and this is the best way to unite Ferelden and rebuild it, but at the same time is completely in love with someone else. And since Alistair doesn't seem to mind her being with someone else and trying to create an heir that way (since they can't have one together), then it's a question, does she serve her country the best she can and have happiness, or does she shirk her duty for her own happiness, or does she give up the one person who matters to her and loves her completely just to serve a country and remain faithful to someone who doesn't even ask that of her.

And that's fine, that's where we disagree.  

I do think my morals play into that as well. Not an excuse or justification, etc, just an explanation.

Your flavor and my flavor have always been two different things ejoslin, and I repsect that. If I came off preachy, I did not mean to. I know I can come off pushy sometimes.

[Thiefy]

Addai67 wrote...

Thief of Hearts, I'm not going to argue it with you as you obviously have strong opinions (even if you then say "play it as you want").. I was pointing out that it does not "break a family" nor "break a marriage" in a feudal society if the lord or lady has a paramour. You're imposing a modern mindset onto the situation that is not inherent. It's true that there could certainly be people in that context who are especially jealous, and in Maric's case everyone bent over backwards to protect Rowan (who probably was not as stupid as they all believed). However is that type of person going to knowingly enter into a political marriage wiith someone who is honest about the fact that his heart belongs to another? Arranged marriage is a pretty crude institution in itself, but the advantage is that you can come in with fewer stars in your eyes. I would not want to be the wife who realizes years down the road that Alistair has loved another woman during their whole life together. Even if he was faithful.

I dont think it's a modern mindset at all that people marry for love and remain faithful to each other. Nor do I think that loyalty in a marriage even without love at the beginning is a modern concept.

The "my idea doesn't apply because of the time setting" philosphy is a little arrogant. Kings have married for love just as they have for politics. You may argue about ratios between the two but that isn't important so much as the idea. Likewise there have been (a few) kings that have stayed loyal to their wives, political or no. The arguement that "it was in the past so it's ok" isn't really a solid one. Granted that is how it was, but that doesn't make it ok. Murder and rape were also key themes in the past, especially during war since lands taken over were considered subhuman, but that didn't make ok, then or now. That's just how things were, I get it. I get that you are telling me that. I've gotten it for a loooong time, trust me.

You pointed outself a prime example of why a political marriage is a bad idea - Rowan and Maric. Besides everyone trying to coddle one or both of them, Rowan still felt betrayed when Maric "cheated" on her with Katriel. No, they didn't love each other, but it was always expected that they would be together, and have only each other, or so Rowan at least thought. She still felt second rate compared to his "true love".

Maybe you think it's not so much a foreign concept that a wife in a political marriage, just be fine with everything that goes on, but I believe the opposite. Even despite knowing "the whole truth" that the wife isn't hurt in some form or way. I don't know why you are adament in trying to prove to me otherwise when I've stated repeatedly that this is my personal belief and no amount of replies can convince me otherwise.

What kind of wife you would prefer to be and the kind I would are two different things. I say "play as you want" and I mean it. I'm not here to judge people or rant about morals, but if you keep bringing it up I will not back down from my position. My intial post wasn't even about that so I don't know why you felt the need to single out one part of it, a part that was moot at best.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:44 .

[ejoslin]

Keep in mind I would never cheat on my husband -- but in a fantasy world with fantasy characters in imperfect situations, what my character would do is often different. *grin* And the Zevran romance is unexpectedly the closest one to a fairy tale, true-love ending -- just too good to pass up! Even if I feel my character must be queen!

And yes, that's the fantastic thing about this game -- you can play it so many ways, and often find richer stories after a few run throughs. I find the epilogue cards oddly satisfying as well, WHEN they're not bugged!

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:44 .

[errant_knight]

AnniLau wrote...

odiedragon wrote...

I highly doubt that the point of traveling, especially as king and queen, is for the purpose of showing off.  FIrst and formost, they have to deal with rebuilding from the Blight.  People are going to have more respect for rulers that actually come to them and see how they're faring and help them with their plight.  Ones that hole themselves up behind palace walls become distant and forgotten at best, hated and plotted against at worst.
I never saw that ending as a "vacation" or "frolicking" - nothing a monarch does is without political implications.
And besides, that's the job Eamon wanted when he pushed for Alistair to take the throne.  He states that he and Teagan have a claim through marriage, but Alistair's claim is better.  So he goes with the better option, most likely knowing that Alistair would keep him around to advise or be his regant.

Well, like I said, phrasing. And maybe a personal aversion to the idea of more traveling after they've just spent a year hiking back and forth across the countryside. 

 They don't have newspapers. Gossip will spread the word that they have a new King and, in this case, that he has taken a Princess-consort who is the hero of Fereldan, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to let the people see their king and feel reassured about the stability of the nation. Especially after the civil war and the blight. That kind of tour is entirely pragmatic and has legitimate political function. It also lets the new king drop in on his nobility and get a feel for their loyalty or lack thereof. Not to mention letting them have a look at the troops escourting him.

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 janvier 2010 - 01:29 .

[Bratt1204]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

I don't think a twice-blighted Alistair WOULD be able to have kids with a fellow grey warden....just too much *hmm let's ignore one of the major the premises of the storyline* (recall, Alistair's mother was an elf Grey Warden, and Alistair was able to sense darkspawn/be sensed by them pretty dang fast compared to other GW recruits) (and DG has mentioned in other threads that two GWs cannot have kids.....so I'm going with what the writer says here)

Er, I believe you mean tainted - which is incorrect. Children who are born from GW do no carry the taint. That and it hasn't been proven that Fiona is Alistair's mother.  There is dialouge in game that mentions Alistair was hidden from Rowan's knowledge in order to preserve her dignity. At the time of Fiona's child's appearance, Rowan is dead. They could be doing a cover up after her death for the sake of her dignity but considering that Loghaine says something along the lines of Rowan being reduced to a concubine in the eyes of other nations because of Alistair's birth, I highly doubt it. There's a lot of things that don't add up, like Goldana's story and I think things were left ambigeous for a reason.

And it's natural for a HNF to marry (after all, what is a HNF for except to tie together houses and build relationships between Banns and other countries?), they aren't there just to become Queen. heck, it would be politically expedient and better for Ferelden, if Alistair was married off to a forgein princess. 
/

Ah, no. Actually it would not. Considering they just over threw a nation that took over them, it would not. That and Fereldans are very proud people. They pride themselves on their loyalty and ability to fight. I'm sure that after a revolution, a civil war, and a blight, they would feel most secute with one of their own - a strong Fereldan woman, to steward them and keep their interest at heart.

And you can support/aid Alisatir as King just as much, maybe even more, by being Chancellor as you could Queen, or by NOT being involved with the court at all, or only superficially. After all, not being mired so deeply into the politics, you'd be able to move more freely, and possibly hear more information that may be of use to the throne.

 
That is a lot of assuming. Sure Alistair would listen to you as a chancellor just as he would you being a Queen, but let's face it, without him you are just another voice trying to grab at the crown. There is a certain amount of absolute power that comes with being a Queen that you do not have as a Chancellor. Saying that you are more limited because you are Queen is foolish to me. You can be just as shady and use questionable means as a Chancellor...and have more oppertunities - not that you will always need to anyway. Especially because she is at the heart of politics she would be more aware of and more capable than a Chancellor. Look at Bhelen from dwarves - you really think his second did all the planning and decision making? No, he may have been the go to man but Bhelen was the power.

And the whole point of the Landsmeet, was not only to checkmate Loghain, but it was to ensure that *can't recall name, Ferelden uniter, first King*'s bloodline remained on the throne.

Therien.

That's how you personally played, but many people didn't. It's a little insulting when you go around and tell other players that they played 'the wrong way'. Some people felt Anora was a fine enough ruler to leave on the thrown. Personally, I would have loved another choice between Anora and Alistair and I would have jumped at the chance - failing that I put Alistair on the thrown because he was the better pick of the two. His bloodline had nothing to do with it, and none of my PCs would ever look at it that way especially since they know how much he hated the thought of people looking at him based on blood.

So I still stand by my assertion, that making yourself Queen, is a very selfish act. And, really, if you're playing a PC who has understood WHAT the grey wardens ARE, it's also a very unhonorable thing to do.

Well maybe being a Grey Warden is different for everyone. But seriously? That was just crap and you know it. You're trying to justify why your play through is more correct and cannon than everyone elses. if you were truely playing as the HONORABLE warden who upheld the very basic codes of what it really meant to be a warden, this whole situation wouldn't even arise because either you or Alistair is dead, he is off in a foreign land somewhere drunk, instead of being a king, or he is insanely pissed off with you and married to Anora, who wouldn't take your advice to begin with. Grey Wardens don't even belong on the throne. It's been repeated over and over again that they should remain neutral. No doubt there will be a huge consequence for ignoring this little detail later on.

Taking Morrigan's ritual - everyone is at least a little selfish. You are either a sinner or a saint, and in Fereldan, just like the real world, NO ONE is a saint. My personal belief that choosing to be Queen and helping the people of Fereldan, along with Alistair who is unsure about governing is the best way to handle the situation. Marriage between himself - the last of the Therein line, with a Cousland, a family who has always done what was best for the people of Fereldan, before there was even a 'Fereldan' would hopefully unite the people and let them rest easy that they were in good hands. Espeically given that they are also the two heros of the blight. It would also give usurpers a pause knowing that they aren't just going to be able to take the crown considering there was a powerful family behind the new king.

What *I* find extremely selfish is that knowing Alistair has to let you go for the sake of propiety, you force and push him to keep the relationship going - knowing he has to get married somewhere down the line. It's not just that you are ok with being his concubine, shadow queen, or personal ****, but you do realize you are breaking someone's marriage, and possibly their family just for your own self satisfaction? What exactly is honorable about that?

And no matter, even if you DO have an heir appointed, there will still be a War of Succession, maybe not right away, but SOMEONE will be ticked off that they/their line wasn't picked to be the King's heir and will start to immediately undermine that new line's rule. (Hello English history, heck, Hello Dwarfs!)

That's still a lot of assuming and you don't know that for sure. But let's use meta game knowledge - no heir is appointed so therefor regardless of what you do, the country goes to hell.

But if we are going by assumptions, I'll make my own. It's only fair since you've made so many. I think that there won't be a war of succession. Because everyone is tired of war and approve of whatever means I use to get an heir. After all I have maxed out coercion and well over 50 cunning. That and my PC is good at non trival tasks. Getting knocked up should be easier than say...slaying an archdemon, even if she has to turn to Avernus or other questionable means to get knocked up. A miracle has happened before anyway - finding the Sacred Ashes and curing Eamon; that being said perhaps the Maker can grant a good PC one more favor and remove the taint either from herself or Alistair in order for conception to be possible. Maybe there can be intercession from Andraste to the Maker on our behalf. How likely it is to happen considering the PC made a god baby is another story though.

Or we can await for the expansion - where we see a big SNAFU - the dark spawn come once again.

Everyone is a different warden and everyone will react/think/play different. There isn't one way that is more right or wrong or cannon than the others. Bioware and their reps have made it clear that this is the *player's* story. Generalizing on what should and shouldn't be in the story based on your assumptions, of all things, is a very ignorant thing to do.

Could not agree with you more, well said.

[SurelyForth]

You pointed outself a prime example of why a political marriage is a bad idea - Rowan and Maric. Besides everyone trying to coddle one or both of them, Rowan still felt betrayed when Maric "cheated" on her with Katriel. No, they didn't love each other, but it was always expected that they would be together, and have only each other, or so Rowan at least thought. She still felt second rate compared to his "true love".

The difference is that Rowan and Maric were betrothed as children. Alistair has never been betrothed- there is nobody in Thedas who has a claim to him. And isn't the die already cast for whoever he marries, anyway? The woman he would let go for propriety is 1) his first love 2) a comrade in arms 3) his constant companion through some deeply horrible situations 4) the reason he realizes his own self-worth and becomes a stronger person and a good king (if you harden him) and 5) a conquering hero who saved his country TWICE. Who in the world is going to stack up to that?



Convincing Alistair to stay with you is not hard because it's what he really wants. Conversely, convincing him to do the Dark Ritual is more difficult if he's hardened, because he doesn't want to do it. The result of that has even more potential to hurt his hypothetical family because that is something he might not disclose and the Old God child will always be a threat to his heir, if he has one.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Convincing Alistair to stay with you is not hard because it's what he really wants. Conversely, convincing him to do the Dark Ritual is more difficult if he's hardened, because he doesn't want to do it. The result of that has even more potential to hurt his hypothetical family because that is something he might not disclose and the Old God child will always be a threat to his heir, if he has one.

Hmmm, I've managed to convince hardened Alistair to sleep with Morrigan without using the persuade options, but you can't talk Alistair into keeping you as a mistress without using the persuade.  Alistair wants to be able to save you and Riorden, and will say so if you're not using the persuade check (I will double check this, but I remember trying to make him refuse to do the ritual and still he agreed to it).  You can get him to refuse it, but it's actually not that difficult, even with low coercion, to get him to do it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:59 .

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Convincing Alistair to stay with you is not hard because it's what he really wants. Conversely, convincing him to do the Dark Ritual is more difficult if he's hardened, because he doesn't want to do it. The result of that has even more potential to hurt his hypothetical family because that is something he might not disclose and the Old God child will always be a threat to his heir, if he has one.

Hmmm, I've managed to convince hardened Alistair to sleep with Morrigan without using the persuade options, but you can't talk Alistair into keeping you as a mistress without using the persuade.  Alistair wants to be able to save you and Riorden, and will say so if you're not using the persuade check (I will double check this, but I remember trying to make him refuse to do the ritual and still he agreed to it).  You can get him to refuse it, but it's actually not that difficult, even with low coercion, to get him to do it.

You can definitely get him to not dump you with no persuade.  There's two ways- one that doesn't get disapproval and one that gets you -5 (because it's a route that involves you saying "Whoever said we had a future?").

Getting him to sleep with Morrigan doesn't involve a persuade check, but if he's not hardened you can just tell him to do it and he will.  If he is hardened, he'll refuse unless you give him a better reason than "because I said so". I wasn't comparing the breaking-up to the ritual, but rather the differences between unhardened/hardened. When he's unhardened, it's impossible to get him to stay with you but it's easier to get him to do the ritual.  When he's hardened, he'll stay with you but he puts up more resistance to the ritual.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 28 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .

[Bratt1204]

If I am slowly building my romance with Alistair and do not want to take him to Redcliff Village on my 1st visit (want to flirt with Ban Teagan), will I still receive the 'talk' about him being Maric's illegitimate son if I go back to camp and bring him back quckly (after Bann Teagan)? From what I just read in the Wiki, I believe I loose that opportunity and will need to wait until after the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest. Because I always had Alistair in my party in all of my other plays, I would really like to experience some different scenes and dialogue options with Alistair if he is not always with me. I have also read that it is better to take to the romance slowly; that the dialogue options are more interesting. I would love some new experiences with him. I had completed the romance too quickly in previous plays and want to wait this one out but don't want to miss any key interactions. Sometimes I really feel like be terrible to him just to get some new dialogue but cannot stomach the massive -disapproval when doing so.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 28 janvier 2010 - 02:44 .

[SurelyForth]

If he's not with you when you first go to Redcliffe, you won't find out about his being Maric's son until you restore Eamon. When I was a mage and did this, I couldn't romance him past the conversation where he kisses you until after that point. This may have been a glitch as it did not happen to my HN who took the same route.

I recommend dragging out the relationship AND going for some of the less obvious/romantic responses in dialogue. The substance doesn't change too much, but it gives it a nice sense of progression. I save his personal quest until we go to Denerim for the Landsmeet (as much to give myself some options of for how I want the game to end as much as anything) so the PC in a relationship with him wouldn't even get invited to his tent until after that point (of course I almost always ask him first).

The hardest part is avoiding some of the triggers (I am a spazz and will wrongly activate my party members 5,000 times a playthrough). Nothing like getting the rose conversation just after you've completed one of the Proving fights!

Alistair:  Look at this, do you know what this is?
PC:  Something covered in dwarf blood? 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:12 .