158 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Maybe you think it's not so much a foreign concept that a wife in a political marriage, just be fine with everything that goes on, but I believe the opposite. Even despite knowing "the whole truth" that the wife isn't hurt in some form or way. I don't know why you are adament in trying to prove to me otherwise when I've stated repeatedly that this is my personal belief and no amount of replies can convince me otherwise.

You're giving your perspective and I mine.  As for whether the political wife is hurt or not, pardon my bluntness but so what?  In the game situation where Alistair doesn't want to be king but is doing it out of duty, there is no Hollywood ending.  Actually, there is no Hollywood ending, period.  On the one playthrough where I made Anora sole ruler, I hated hearing Alistair disclaim his rightful throne for himself and his heirs.  It just felt so wrong.  Someone gets hurt or has to adjust to the less than ideal any way you play it.

I do agree with you that the poster who said it was horribly selfish to make yourself queen was being heavy-handed in judgment of the situation.  Just pointing out that you are, too, in your own way.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:55 .

[Thiefy]

Addai67 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Maybe you think it's not so much a foreign concept that a wife in a political marriage, just be fine with everything that goes on, but I believe the opposite. Even despite knowing "the whole truth" that the wife isn't hurt in some form or way. I don't know why you are adament in trying to prove to me otherwise when I've stated repeatedly that this is my personal belief and no amount of replies can convince me otherwise.

You're giving your perspective and I mine.  As for whether the political wife is hurt or not, pardon my bluntness but so what?  In the game situation where Alistair doesn't want to be king but is doing it out of duty, there is no Hollywood ending.  Actually, there is no Hollywood ending, period.  On the one playthrough where I made Anora sole ruler, I hated hearing Alistair disclaim his rightful throne for himself and his heirs.  It just felt so wrong.  Someone gets hurt or has to adjust to the less than ideal any way you play it.

I do agree with you that the poster who said it was horribly selfish to make yourself queen was being heavy-handed in judgment of the situation.  Just pointing out that you are, too, in your own way.

I'm sorry, but no, you are taking my post out of context, and I believe you know it. That whole thing about selfish or not - it was example, as I've stated many times. I could just as easily made an example about wandering off with Alistair in the sunset as a GW couple, but the other came to find first and seemed more appropiate.

Everything that you've posted is a tangent off what I was trying to point out, and considering I've explained several times that my personal opinion on the matter won't change, I don't see why you feel the need to push the issue, unless you just like all the arguing. You're lectures about the past and Hollywood endings really don't matter because as I've stated from my very first post, that is what *I* find to be more selfish. You may disagree, others may disagree, but this ALL traces back to my main point of there is no "canon" warden or ending. No where did I say my opinion was more correct than anyone elses OR that if you were a "real" GW you should act a certain way. Please, point out to me where I did and I shall correct myself.

I really don't see why you have this need to warp my post out of context. If my opinion on marriage bothers you THAT much, perhaps I should just use a different example? Somehow my message of "this game is open to player interpretation" got lost amoungst the discussions of video game ethics...

The difference is that Rowan and Maric were betrothed as children. Alistair has never been betrothed- there is nobody in Thedas who has a claim to him. And isn't the die already cast for whoever he marries, anyway? The woman he would let go for propriety is 1) his first love 2) a comrade in arms 3) his constant companion through some deeply horrible situations 4) the reason he realizes his own self-worth and becomes a stronger person and a good king (if you harden him) and 5) a conquering hero who saved his country TWICE. Who in the world is going to stack up to that?

Convincing Alistair to stay with you is not hard because it's what he really wants. Conversely, convincing him to do the Dark Ritual is more difficult if he's hardened, because he doesn't want to do it. The result of that has even more potential to hurt his hypothetical family because that is something he might not disclose and the Old God child will always be a threat to his heir, if he has one.

I don't think that the difference matters, because there's still potential for betrayal, but you are right that the die has been cast for Alistair once he is made King. Still I think a warden who would choose to be a mistress knowing she will be "the other woman" is far more selfish than a warden who is going to be queen in order to 1)help rebuild the country she loves and protect it, 2) be with the man she loves, even if she may be barren.

You're also right about the ritual as well. That is extremely selfish. Maybe I should have just gone with that particular example more in my first post and expanded on it instead of talking about marriage. It seems my poor choice of examples is prime bait for miscontruing.

But seriously, regardless of whatever we pick, there is no one singular 'best answer' that wins the prize. *sigh* I really hate sounding like a broken record.

[Addai]

ToH, it does seem ridiculous to argue about it (and I said I wouldn't *sigh*), particularly as we both agree that the other poster's statement about wanting to be queen being egregiously selfish was off-base. I suppose I found your way of expressing your take, to the point of seeming to even question players' personal morality regarding marriage, a bit dogmatic. No harm no foul.

[Sandtigress]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

You're also right about the ritual as well. That is extremely selfish.

Not trying to argue at all, but I think even the ritual can be up for debate on its selfishness.  Probably a lot of it depends on the PC's influence and affection with Morrigan.  Most of mine have at least been moderately friendly by this point (giving the mirror is a huge boost to this, and most of them have just been nice people) so Morrigan's assurances that the child will not be used for an overtly evil purpose, nor will he be used against Ferelden have made the deal seem not so bad.

She has one line where she says, of the Old God, that "some things in this life are worth preserving" and even I as the gamer can somewhat see her point.  So when you view it as a potentially neutral situation (not intrinsically good or evil) weighed against factors like 1) Ferelden keeps its king 2) Anora doesn't get to be queen   3) someone Ferelden survives to rebuild the Grey Wardens 4) Ferelden keeps its queen    I think there are reasons to say that even the dark ritual is an acceptable choice.


None of that might matter if PC doesn't trust Morrigan, or won't take the risk of the child no matter what, but most of my characters have been willing to do the ritual without feeling horrifically guilty about it afterwards, whereas they would never have sacrificed Isolde or killed Connor, for instance.

[SurelyForth]

I personally don't believed the Dark Ritual is that selfish in theory- and as a male PC I would never hesitate. My PC's always like and trust Morrigan and one sees very positive potential for the child. My biggest quandry is having to make Alistair participate despite the fact that he seems distinctly uncomfortable with the idea.



I just think it's more selfish, and potentially threatening from a political stanpoint, then being Alistair's mistress, is all. Neither would make me lose sleep, however.

[Sandtigress]

lol One thing I haven't gotten to try yet because I can't find the dialog path I need to take...apparently as female PC you can tell Alistair that you would do it only you don't have the "right equipment" for the job.



I didn't feel so bad having Loghain do it my first run through (when Landsmeet shocked the heck out of me - wasn't expecting that to happen!). Alistair is a more difficult one to put through it, for sure, though for me, again, if it comes down to Ferelden losing its king and having to go back to Anora, I'd be willing to convince him to do it. Another blow for the country, so to speak, since he does look pretty unwilling during that scene.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

lol One thing I haven't gotten to try yet because I can't find the dialog path I need to take...apparently as female PC you can tell Alistair that you would do it only you don't have the "right equipment" for the job.

Yes you can tell him that.    Don't use your first Persuade option, rather say something like "I honestly think it's the right thing to do."  The scene switches to where you are standing and he's sitting looking up at you, and that's when you have the option of saying "I would do this myself if I could."  He says the line about equipment.

You would think this situation is bad if you're in a romance with him, but it was even worse on my last character who romanced Zevran.  Knowing I was sending him off to Morrigan for his first time... ack, the poor guy!!!

Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:59 .

[errant_knight]

Sandtigress wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

You're also right about the ritual as well. That is extremely selfish.

Not trying to argue at all, but I think even the ritual can be up for debate on its selfishness.  Probably a lot of it depends on the PC's influence and affection with Morrigan.  Most of mine have at least been moderately friendly by this point (giving the mirror is a huge boost to this, and most of them have just been nice people) so Morrigan's assurances that the child will not be used for an overtly evil purpose, nor will he be used against Ferelden have made the deal seem not so bad.

She has one line where she says, of the Old God, that "some things in this life are worth preserving" and even I as the gamer can somewhat see her point.  So when you view it as a potentially neutral situation (not intrinsically good or evil) weighed against factors like 1) Ferelden keeps its king 2) Anora doesn't get to be queen   3) someone Ferelden survives to rebuild the Grey Wardens 4) Ferelden keeps its queen    I think there are reasons to say that even the dark ritual is an acceptable choice.


None of that might matter if PC doesn't trust Morrigan, or won't take the risk of the child no matter what, but most of my characters have been willing to do the ritual without feeling horrifically guilty about it afterwards, whereas they would never have sacrificed Isolde or killed Connor, for instance.

This is how I took it. Yes, it's a risk, and goes against protocol. In that sense, it's selfish, as was the desire to make sure they both lived, but it always seemed like choosing a lesser bad (in that it's a risk and not known to ve bad) over a really bad (in all possible ways).

Morrigan make a good point about preserving the old god. I felt pretty bad about their corruption from the beginning. My PC really doesn't want Anora to be queen, and wants to rebuild Ferelan and the grey wardens. She thinks both she and Alistair are necessary for that. The fact that it keeps them together is part of the decision, but only part. So while it's selfish in that it introduces an unknown into the equation, it's not necessarily any more selfish than depriving Fereldan of it's king because you're squeamish.

The only parts of this that really gave me pause were asking Alistair to do something he found so distateful, overwriting the personality of the 'child' (only the fact that it couldn't have progressed beyond a single cell and is not, to me, a child at this point allowed me to do this), and dabbling in something that seems so close to blood magic. The PC is a person that finds killing archdemons completely doable, after all. Why should a person with the soul of an old god be any different? If it becomes a problem, it's easy enough to kill it.

[odiedragon]

errant_knight wrote...

Morrigan make a good point about preserving the old god. I felt pretty bad about their corruption from the beginning. 

The PC is a person that finds killing archdemons completely doable, after all. Why should a person with the soul of an old god be any different? If it becomes a problem, it's easy enough to kill it.

Don't know if I agree with it, but your words here gave me a wonder...

I could see the PC thinking...
Did the Old God ask or desire to become tainted, or did they have the taint forced on them against their will?  If not... say, that sounds awfully familiar... and personal...

Basically, I could see the PC finding a sort of kinship with the Old God trapped within the archdemon.  You didn't ask to be burdened with the taint, and neither did the Old God.  If someone had the chance to free YOU of the taint through a ritual, would you want them to do it?

If your PC's answer is yes... then you should do the ritual.