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[Hellion Rex]

One should also note that there seems to be some sort of connection between the Taint and Dragons, if we were to take the Architect's breeding of them and performing experiments on them as any indication. Indeed, Dragons were able to use blood magic in Awakening, which is strange.

Also, the Red Lyrium Idol, when it was broken, managed to thin the Veil. Indeed, I'd argue the Veil thins naturally as a result of Red Lyrium, due to the high amount of Shades in the Primeval Thaig.

I'd say red lyrium almost appears to be a consequence of an already thinned veil. Kirkwall's end of the Veil was already terrible long before the idol shattered. As for shades in the PT, I could also see that being a result of a major level hunger demon running the show down there.

[Antergaton]

There's also an interesting text piece in the fade (during here lies the abyss quest) which doesn't leave a codex entry;

 

Whispers Written in Red Lyrium:

WE ARE HERE
WE HAVE WAITED
WE HAVE SLEPT
WE ARE SUNDERED
WE ARE CRIPPLED
WE ARE POLLUTED
WE ENDURE
WE WAIT
WE HAVE FOUND THE DREAMS AGAIN
WE WILL AWAKEN

 

(It's written with caps in-game.) Something to do with the old gods or the profane, perhaps? I found a screencap of it here; http://i.imgur.com/QS0kHnH.jpg

 

I like the idea that it is the old gods trying to communicate again. They are trapped so they first remind people they are there, waiting and sleeping. Sundered, crippled and polluted by the Blight. Endured it, waited more, dreaming again and will awaken again is not as obvious, they are being awoken by the Darkspawn but there are only 2 left. Fits the 'We'. I guess.

[Antergaton]

An interesting amount of theories here. I can see many being true but I do not believe Arlathan was/is the Golden City (and therefore is now the Black City). As based on the timeline it was destroyed after the Golden City existed. Although I do feel it is a representation of it.

 

My main issue with any theory is that Thedas is not the only continent, Humans and Qunari came from different ones. I think in this world, all were created by the Maker, the fade, it's spirits and each continent and it's beings. The Maker sat in the Golden City (which is always visible in the fade) to look upon the fade easily, it was his first creation. However, when the 2nd lot of Maker's creations tried to enter the Golden City a failsafe/trap triggered causing the Blight, instantaneously turning it Black. 

 

Corypheous claimed it was already black and no one was on the seat. So that says that a seat exists, it's just the Maker wasn't it in it at the time. The reason Corypheous thinks it was already Black is just it change so quickly he couldn't comprehend it and the Maker wasn't there because it is said he didn't like the Fade and it's spirits so left to create the world. See the issue is that who threw the Magisters out of the Black City? Wouldn't they still be there if there was no Maker. Darkspawn seek out the old gods as the Magister's minds were turned simplistic driven by basic desires (their thoughts were on the old gods). 

 

The old gods and Elven gods are 2 side of the same coin. One bunch just more malevolent than the others, I also think the old gods fear the Blight as much as everyone else because it's means their demise but they are helpless trapped where they are.

 

All completely wrong obviously but I did think Flemeth was more than just a witch extending her life and I was right about that (Okay so I though she was an old god produced in the same ritual that Morrigan did/wanted to do). 

[Dean_the_Young]

It'll be late in the game, but I could tell you where if you want. I'm actually surprised you haven't played DAII yet, good sir! I thought you had partaken in the various lore discussions back in the day, or does my memory deceive me?

 

 

I have, multiple times. I meant 'play again.'

 

 

Indeed. There's something to be said about Malvernis, who for what it's worth took an interesting form. Aside from a vaguely humanoid shape, he turned himself into a Dragon.

 

Currently, I'm making a sort of quasi-semi-partial-masterpost of anything that might be related, whether it's for Dwarves or Elves or whatever. At the very least, for reference material for me to make my theories later (since the DA wiki bogs down my computer something awful).

 

 

This thread is a gold mine of deep lore tidbits right now. Well worth bookmarking for future reference.

[Hellion Rex]

Question, bc I haven't played DA2 in eons: what was the significance of Malvernis again?

[Ajna]

I love this thread.

 

Carry on.

[TEWR]

I'd say red lyrium almost appears to be a consequence of an already thinned veil. Kirkwall's end of the Veil was already terrible long before the idol shattered. As for shades in the PT, I could also see that being a result of a major level hunger demon running the show down there.

 

True, but if you take Anders to Bartrand's mansion he says the Veil is very very thin there, even for everything Bartrand did (or something along those lines IIRC). It's possible it could be circular though. A thin Veil feeds the red lyrium which thins the Veil further, though I doubt it as this seems to be the result more of Bartrand breaking the idol in two pieces (which Anders notes made it all the more potent then when it was whole)

[TEWR]

Question, bc I haven't played DA2 in eons: what was the significance of Malvernis again?

 

Legacy. A walking pestilence worse then the Darkspawn that the Dwarves managed to seal in a contraption and guard, knowing that they'd be on the surface in so doing.

 

Also an anagram of Silverman.

 

 

We called it Malvernis. The Pestilent One. It devoured thaigs, turning our fairest work into a noxious waste. It consumed living warriors, turning their bodies to slime, and when its hunger was not abated, it consumed the bones of our ancestors.

 

Foulness came from its touch, poison and filth and desecration. It threatened the Stone itself. The Shapers bound it. Chained in lyrium stained with the blood of a hundred warriors. But within the orb, it hungered, it waited.

 

We carried it here to the wasteland of the surface, where it can threaten nothing of value. The Stone will live. The Stone must live. We have sworn to defend it from the Foul One at any price.

 

=================================================================

 

You who must serve beneath the empty sky, you stand between this Poison and the Stone. The Ancestors will remember when all others have forgotten your name. Remember your oath: it must endure even beyond death itself. Be vigilant.

 

If the Pestilent One awakens, you will know it by these signs: The air will fill with the scent of putrefaction. You will hear a sound like the cadence of drums. Malvernis the Defiler will try to weaken your will and compel you to bear the orb out of Amgeforn, but you must hold fast.

 

This is the sacred duty that cannot be forsworn lest the Stone fall to poison and death.

 

=====================================================================

 

One watcher each generation will be chosen from the Warrior Caste. He will stand guard until his death.

 

Only the constant vigilance of the Stone's Children can keep the foulness of Malvernis at bay. The burden of living in exile beneath the sun is terrible, but this sacrifice, this amgeforn, will ensure the sanctity of the Stone forever.

 

Valos atredum.

 

—By decree of Paragon Ilona

 

I bolded one line in particular considering the Wardens use it as well. Make of it what you will.

 

It's possible the idea of the Gangue -- the waste and unstable rock -- might have some minor correlations.... maybe. Or not, but have a Gangue reference anyway.

 

 

The Stone has a will that surrounds and directs; she guides even when we are willfully blind to her influence. But she is not pure. The Stone bears a corruption as old as balance. For the dwarves to prosper, the gangue--the waste and unstable rock-- must be cut away. But like the Stone, the gangue also has an influence. Each of us must face this, must carve the worst of ourselves away, but the Legion of the Dead bears a unique responsibility. Only the fully adorned of the Legion can face the gangue, can cut into darkness that afflicts the raw Stone. She encircles us, and we must protect her, here where darkness meets light.

--A Legion of the Dead inscription, undated

 

 

[TEWR]

****....

 

So the Hero of Ferelden drank from an Ancient Elven Well laced with godly wisdom and maybe a geas in the fine print....

 

Before it was cool.

 

Xanthos Aeducan, the Hipster of Thedas.

 

I'm adopting this idea for my headcanon though.

[Jaison1986]

****....

 

So the Hero of Ferelden drank from an Ancient Elven Well laced with godly wisdom and maybe a geas in the fine print....

 

Before it was cool.

 

Well, at least he wasn't bound to his mother in law. That would have been really awkward.

[TEWR]

For all we know we're bound to Solas.

 

That'd make for an interesting clash. Flemeth vs Solas, Mythal vs. Fen'Harel, Nasir vs. Xanthos.

 

ROUND 1.... FIGHT!!!

 

(though to be honest, we don't know enough about the Wells)

[Dean_the_Young]

I think we need to break out the dwarf lore. It seems clear to me now that the Primevial Dwarves were related to the Ancient Elves somehow, and that there was some sort of overlap of their mythologies and histories well before official Dwarven History.

 

Like that reference about Caradin's golem being built off of a myth, or him having an inspirational vision. I certainly can't remember that.

 

I like the idea that it is the old gods trying to communicate again. They are trapped so they first remind people they are there, waiting and sleeping. Sundered, crippled and polluted by the Blight. Endured it, waited more, dreaming again and will awaken again is not as obvious, they are being awoken by the Darkspawn but there are only 2 left. Fits the 'We'. I guess.

 

I don't think that works well for the Old Gods- one of the defining characteristics of them vis-a-vis the ArchDemons is that they aren't corrupted, which Red Lyrium explicitly is.

 

Lyrium is better tied to a separate Pantheon, the Dwarven stone. Red Lyrium is... some link between the dwarven and the elven, going by the implicit elven themes with the Primevial Thaig. (Click that link that was provided- even the loot and internal game files distinguish it from the regular thaigs!)

 

But then, there's a singing. Lyrium is tied to the Old Gods by singing, the Old Gods seem to be tied to the Elven Forgotten Ones by animosity towards the Arlathan Pantheon,  the ancient god war of the Arlathan Pantheon seems to have been against the evil darkness underground that was depicted riding as Halla (an Elven-specific imagery)...

 

And, of course, the 'modern' Dwarves who fought the Being of Pestilance (pestilance being one of the themes of the elven forces of evil/Formless Ones).

 

 

 

At this point, I think understanding the ancient dwarves is our key to understanding what the Arlathan elves fought against, and why. It's not clear if there were two forces involved (Arlathan Pantheon, Formless Ones aka Old Gods), three forces (Arlathan Pantheon, Formless Ones, Stone), or four (Arlathan, Forgotten Ones, Old Gods as a speparate force from the foregotten ones, and Stone).

 

I'm wondering if the elven lore overlaps the Stone and the Old Gods in a seperate category of the Formless Ones.

[TEWR]

The vision reference is from Caridin's journal.

 

 

940, 45th day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: I have done it. The vision the ancestors gave me has come to fruition. Today a man sat up from my forge, a man of living stone and steel. I called him golem, for the legend of those great statues animated by the dead. They are our future and our salvation.

 

940, 60th day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: It is a horrific process. Not every man could do such a thing and survive with his mind intact. I am honored that the ancestors believe I have the strength to bear this burden and forge Orzammar's defenders.

 

Nothing so great may be achieved without sacrifice. Nor may stone and steel walk without a spirit to animate them.

 

940, 73rd day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: I have asked for volunteers. Some few answered, men of the Warrior Caste, younger sons with no property, no chance for marriage. They want to defend Orzammar from the horrors these humans have unleashed. They want to live forever in a body stronger than the finest armor. They do not ask to speak with those who have gone before.

 

I have put off saying this, even in these pages. But I must say it now. My golems will be powered by their deaths. These brave warriors come to me, naked as the day they were born. I dress them in a skin of armor, so large it makes the burliest look no more than a babe, the anvil their first and final cradle. We are surrounded by a mile of earth on all sides. No one hears the screams as I pour molten lyrium through the eyeholes, the mouth, every joint and ****** in the armor. They silence quickly, but the smell lingers, just a trace of blood in the greater stench of hot metal. I must work fast. The armor is malleable now, as I shape it with hammer and tongs.

 

It is not long before it moves beneath my hands, writhing and twisting with every blow. It speaks again now, a low moan, but I have learned to tune it out. I can afford no error in this craft. There can be no melted slag blinding the eyes, nor an unhewn bit of granite shackling the leg. They groan at my work, but would they rather be broken, crippled? Those I have spoken to tell me of the pain, but could they see themselves, they would see perfection.

 

-- From the journal of Caridin.

[TEWR]

oh! Also, Dagna has some interesting things to say about lyrium and Tranquil and Dwarves and stuffz.

 

 

God I wish I could remember which threads I posted my old theories in, where I kept saying the PT is related to the emergence of the Blight and the Darkspawn.

 

Back then, I was called mad! But now I'm vindicated! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[azarhal]

There's also an interesting text piece in the fade (during here lies the abyss quest) which doesn't leave a codex entry;

 

Whispers Written in Red Lyrium:

WE ARE HERE
WE HAVE WAITED
WE HAVE SLEPT
WE ARE SUNDERED
WE ARE CRIPPLED
WE ARE POLLUTED
WE ENDURE
WE WAIT
WE HAVE FOUND THE DREAMS AGAIN
WE WILL AWAKEN

 

(It's written with caps in-game.) Something to do with the old gods or the profane, perhaps? I found a screencap of it here; http://i.imgur.com/QS0kHnH.jpg

 

That actually sound more like elves trapped being Eluvians being corrupted by the Taint to me.

 

We know from DAO Dalish Origin that some Eluvians are tainted and that Darkspawns use them. It is implied in DAI (Cole/Solas banter) that some of the "people" are sleeping behind certain Eluvians. It's not that far of a stretch that the Eluvians spread the taint to the people sleeping behind them.

 

Also, seems like the Darkspawns have access to the Crossroad.

[TEWR]

someone should post the Eleni Zinovia dialogues and the Nexus Golem remarks.

[Antergaton]

I don't think that works well for the Old Gods- one of the defining characteristics of them vis-a-vis the ArchDemons is that they aren't corrupted, which Red Lyrium explicitly is.

 

The old gods aren't corrupted themselves but the darkspawn taint the old gods making them ArchDemons. This is what happens does it not?

[Ajna]

The vision reference is from Caridin's journal.

I...I'd never read this before, I do believe I'm going to have nightmares...

[Ranadiel Marius]

I think we need to break out the dwarf lore. It seems clear to me now that the Primevial Dwarves were related to the Ancient Elves somehow, and that there was some sort of overlap of their mythologies and histories well before official Dwarven History.

Personally, my theory (since the revelation that Dalish tattoos are slave brands) is that prior to the creation of the veil, elves and dwarves were a single species. The ones who became dwarves were protected....from something by the lyrium by cutting them off completely from the fade, and thus they abandoned their old gods and venerated the stone. It could help explain why the old elvish empire can't be found, it is all underground.

A random thought regarding the veil, before the creation of the Veil, what actually distinguished living creatures from spirits? After the veil they are primarily distinguished by where they lived, but before the Veil were all living creatures actually just spirits? If so, what distinguished a spirit that became an elf from a spirit that became a human? Alternatively, if living creatures were distinct from spirits due to their complexity, then where did living creatures gain their complexity if the world molded to their will?

[Ranadiel Marius]

The latter paragraph brings up some interesting points and would explain why Solas has a tendency to treat spirits as people.

Speaking of Solas and his views on spirits...I'm reminded of a Sola's/Cole banter after completing the Solas romance. In it Cole reads Solas's thoughts and says that he was starting to see the Inq as being real which means that they are all real which changes everything. So....he doesn't view modern as elves/living creatures as "real"? Evidence that the original elves were actually spirits? So the quickening was actually elves losing their eternal existence as spirits to gain a mortal life that was unknown, at least to them, prior to the creation of the Veil?

[Dean_the_Young]

The old gods aren't corrupted themselves but the darkspawn taint the old gods making them ArchDemons. This is what happens does it not?

 

Right- but the message is in red, blight-infected Lyrium. It doesn't make sense as a medium for the Old Gods, because the Old Gods would (presumably) be corrupted the moment they came into contact with it. Whereas the message senders (the 'we') are already corrupted by their own admission.

 

It's far more suggestive of a separate group.
 

[azarhal]

Personally, my theory (since the revelation that Dalish tattoos are slave brands) is that prior to the creation of the veil, elves and dwarves were a single species. The ones who became dwarves were protected....from something by the lyrium by cutting them off completely from the fade, and thus they abandoned their old gods and venerated the stone. It could help explain why the old elvish empire can't be found, it is all underground.

 

I had a theory pre-DAI that every species were Elves before something caused them to split (or multiple something). I was thinking blood magic "plague" at the time, now I'm not too sure. Seems a bit more complicated.

 

Also, I find it interesting that in the Fade landmass float. What if, when the Veil didn't exist, everything was just floating and Thaigs were just built on the largest floating rocks. The Deep Roads were created later, when everything fell back down together because of the Veil.