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[Dean_the_Young]

Personally, my theory (since the revelation that Dalish tattoos are slave brands) is that prior to the creation of the veil, elves and dwarves were a single species. The ones who became dwarves were protected....from something by the lyrium by cutting them off completely from the fade, and thus they abandoned their old gods and venerated the stone. It could help explain why the old elvish empire can't be found, it is all underground.
 

 

That may be reasonable- especially if the proto-Dwarves were the elves associated with the Formless Ones/rival Pantheon. It would help mesh the elven civil war idea with the evils from the earth.

 

It's still unclear about the soulless earth-movers of the Pillars of Earth, though. Separate beings? Are dwarves a hybrid of Elf and an original proto-dwarf species, whether biological or magical in corruption?

 

 

A random thought regarding the veil, before the creation of the Veil, what actually distinguished living creatures from spirits? After the veil they are primarily distinguished by where they lived, but before the Veil were all living creatures actually just spirits? If so, what distinguished a spirit that became an elf from a spirit that became a human? Alternatively, if living creatures were distinct from spirits due to their complexity, then where did living creatures gain their complexity if the world molded to their will?

 

Permanency, I suspect.

 

Solas talks abit about how the world would be if the fade were meshed with reality, but it doesn't really challenge that aspect of the difference between the mundane and the magical. He sees the difference as meaningless, not non-existent.

 

Though it does beg a question... if the Dwarves were the elves who were utterly disconnected from the Fade when Solas raised the Veil, might Spirits have started as the elves who were similarly 'trapped' on the other side of the Veil? Lyrium severed the Dwarves and makes them uber-'real', but elves on the far side of none of that?

 

If Dwarves were made when the Veil was raised, that would support the idea that Humans came from Elves at the Fade Distinction... some point a few thousand years before the Tevinter invasion of Arlathan in the suspected history.

[LOLandStuff]

That whisper in Red Lyrium is rather creepy. Makes it sound like someone stole some other beings' powers, imprisoned them and the Blight is the only way they can get revenge.

 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Permanency, I suspect.

Solas talks abit about how the world would be if the fade were meshed with reality, but it doesn't really challenge that aspect of the difference between the mundane and the magical. He sees the difference as meaningless, not non-existent.

Though it does beg a question... if the Dwarves were the elves who were utterly disconnected from the Fade when Solas raised the Veil, might Spirits have started as the elves who were similarly 'trapped' on the other side of the Veil? Lyrium severed the Dwarves and makes them uber-'real', but elves on the far side of none of that?

If Dwarves were made when the Veil was raised, that would support the idea that Humans came from Elves at the Fade Distinction... some point a few thousand years before the Tevinter invasion of Arlathan in the suspected history.

I suppose that permenancy is the distinction, but the question is why would some creatures have permenancy and others do not when a mere thought can reshape the world and those around you?....actually which side of the divide really has the permenancy? Creatures in "reality" have physical forms that change based on the cycle of time but aren't influenced directly by the thoughts of others. While fade creatures are eternally the same until someone with a stronger will/magic tells them they are something different. So reality has permenancy of self while the fade has permenancy of form (assuming no outside interference).

Regarding elves trapped on the other side, that is an interesting thought. I figured that spirits trapped in reality became humans based on the fact that Cole was able to became one and Solas in a banter says he never expected to witness it, as though he knew it was possible). So I think spirits existed before the veil....but if there was a distinction between spirits and elves before the veil as some of my theories assume, then something would have had to have happened to those who were left behind....I really don't have any good ideas on this one, unless they are all hiding/sleeping in the golden city so whatever they became has been hidden from view.

[Dean_the_Young]

I suppose that permenancy is the distinction, but the question is why would some creatures have permenancy and others do not when a mere thought can reshape the world and those around you?....actually which side of the divide really has the permenancy? Creatures in "reality" have physical forms that change based on the cycle of time but aren't influenced directly by the thoughts of others. While fade creatures are eternally the same until someone with a stronger will/magic tells them they are something different. So reality has permenancy of self while the fade has permenancy of form (assuming no outside interference).
 

 

If you don't like 'permanency,' 'independent reality' might be a better description. Fade creatures (and the Fade) change merely by the perception and interaction with others- at least as Solas tells it, the Fade and its beings will change to match your perceptions, even on the level of basic interaction. Fade beings are only permanent in a sense of 'they won't change without interaction,' but any interaction can slightly change their form and nature.

 

Non-fade things are 'real' in a matter of degrees, but basic observation doesn't change the character or composition of the non-Fade.

[Tielis]

I just stumbled over this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat observations while I catch up.

I'm not sure I'm fully on board with that last idea, but it's worth examining, certainly. The evidence is limited and circumstantial, but it may not be coincidence that humans are the only race that has been demonstrably able to exert direct control over blight magic.

Consider, for a moment, lyrium as the literal living blood of two primordial, pre-elvish Pantheon entities recorded in the Dalish mythology as the sun and earth. Blue lyrium, the blood of the earth. Red lyrium, that of the sun.

If memory serves, in the tale of Alger'nan in which he casts his "father" down, the sun's blood spatters the heavens, ostensibly becoming the stars. Now examine that in the context of the new codex information we have from the temple of Mythal, in which "she shook the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold."

Sounds like weaponized red lyrium at this point, doesn't it?

Another elegant explanation, or perhaps just a "real world" wink from the writers: Andruil's weapon as a nuclear (hydrogen) bomb. Describing it as a golden shaft filled with the "grains" that make up stars seems leading in the extreme, to begin with. Add in the mutative effects of blight, the fact that Solas refers to blight magic as "unnatural" and "poison", and there's either something there, or it's a pretty elaborate red herring.

 

You mean Andruil's weapon is a red lyrium reactor and it's leeeeaaaaking.  Oh dear.

[Tielis]

There's also an interesting text piece in the fade (during here lies the abyss quest) which doesn't leave a codex entry;

 

Whispers Written in Red Lyrium:

WE ARE HERE
WE HAVE WAITED
WE HAVE SLEPT
WE ARE SUNDERED
WE ARE CRIPPLED
WE ARE POLLUTED
WE ENDURE
WE WAIT
WE HAVE FOUND THE DREAMS AGAIN
WE WILL AWAKEN

 

(It's written with caps in-game.) Something to do with the old gods or the profane, perhaps? I found a screencap of it here; http://i.imgur.com/QS0kHnH.jpg

 

Okay, so I've said semi-jokingly before that "Lyrium is people" and now this has pretty much solidified another crackpot theory for me.

 

What if lyrium is actually spirits bound into the earth?  And like spirits in the Fade (which is a reflection of the earth, according to Solas), lyrium can be either pristine or corrupted (blue or red).

 

I still don't know how this relates to the Fade, in all honesty, but I think it relates to how Elgar'nan threw down the first gods.  Perhaps those first "gods" were spirits, since the Chantry says that they are the Maker's first children.

[Minooshka]

If the Fade is a reflection of thoughts and intentions. Why is the Black city omnipresent? (that's an interesting thought).

 

Suppose that outside of it being physically there, it is a thought continuously omnipresent and being produced? What could be generating that thought? The Darkspawn-taint seems to be omnipresent. Could it be that? The Architect did say that they (the darkspawn) wish to join perfection, drawn by a 'terribly beautiful song' that is the old gods. Perhaps its their collective need to reach the Black city through the Old gods? 

 
I have a theory based on this premise;

• Solas:"Spirits wish to join the living, and a demon is that wish gone wrong."
• Corypheus' dragon is not an archedemon but a blighted dragon which he has invested a part of his being. To emulate the old gods.

 

So what is an 'Archdemon'? They call it a demon, but it is an old god's soul which calls upon the blight and can control those affected by it. 

 

"A soul is never forced upon the unwilling" - thus the grey warden's ability to destroy them. Since Corypheus is a magister (who I believe created the blight as a form of blood magic) he can control the wardens.

 

I believe that the Old gods and Elven gods are either similar or separate entities (but all of them powerful spirits from the Fade). I read an interesting theory that is the blight may have been developed by the Magisters of Tevinter using both blood-magic and lyrium with the help of 'whispers of the old god Dumat' to facilitate the crossing over of 'the old gods'. Thus making all of the things it taints willing to possession. If Mythal can turn into a dragon, so could other elven gods, or the old/forgotten ones. So I don't see how they are different entities other than the Blight factor.

 

Because who would ever be willing to join itself with an elder evil? Perhaps that is why they are 'Forgotten' by the Elven... but called 'Old' by Tevinter. Would you not wish to forget 'Fear' to become courageous? However it is also an 'Old' emotion which powers the will to live.  It always seems that the Fade where things are 'evil, corrupt and decrepit' is where the Black City is found. When exploring the Fade Solas says; 'this area of the fade'. So there are many areas? This is interesting to me. Cole also mentions that it 'wasn't like this, not as he remembered'. So there are areas.

 

Suppose Solas did trap them 'In the beyond' a deeper part of the Fade? The Black city could be the vestiges of 'the area of the fade' that the old gods come from. Perhaps the root/kingdom of all evils? Wasn't the Dread Wolf friend to both? Could he not travel between the Elven gods and the 'Forgotten ones'. Perhaps to save the other spirit-entites (elven gods) The fade and veil needed to be created.

[gothicshark]

Was there a third kind?

first, interesting hypotheses, and it is something I have wondered about. Not that I think the Blight turned ancient elves human, but I do think Elves and Humans are linked in a way not yet explained.

Second your question. Yes there is a third and forth kind.

Third, if the Veil didn't exist then magic would bind with all Elves and they would be immortal.
Forth, Magic used to slow the effects of aging. Seen in DA:O Warden's Keep DLC, Avernus uses blood magic to live for 150 years alone alone in the keep.

(Sophia Dryden joins the Wardens in 7:5 Storm, the fifth blight was 9:30 Dragon, or 150 years)

[Ranadiel Marius]

If the Fade is a reflection of thoughts and intentions. Why is the Black city omnipresent? (that's an interesting thought).

Suppose that outside of it being physically there, it is a thought continuously omnipresent and being produced? What could be generating that thought?

Oh that is an easy one, the entire population of Andrastian Thedas. They are told from birth that the Magisters entered the gold city and turned it black. So that should be enough of an omnipresent thought to make anything permenant in the fade. The question is what was sustaining it before then, and was it always as omnipresent in the Fade. I know that either World of Theda's or a Dev stated there were reports of the golden city in the fade before the Magister's incursion, but that doesn't necesarily mean it was always visible from everyplace on the fade.

Actually, a thought, do we know for a fact when the first recording of the golden city being black was? It just occurred to me that it may have been the Chantry teachings that turned the city black. Cory apparently says something about walking through the golden halls, so maybe when he says it was supposed to golden and not black, he is referring to the power he found (the blight) and not the city itself.

[razzy1319]

.

 

I have been reading a lot of threads lately here and on reddit about the various theories regarding the Old Gods/Elven Gods and I'm on the side that says that the Gods are one in the same. The 9 elven gods minus Mythal and Fen'harel equals the 7 Old Gods/Archdemon stuff sounds very good to me. My current theory is Fen'harel split the fade from the world so that he can lock the Old Gods in the real world as the Archdemons. While their physical bodies are asleep, their presence in the fade are trapped in the black city. Thats why the black city exists. Its because it is the dreams of the elven gods of the Arlathan.

 

Now as to why the Old Gods asks/whispers to the 7 Magisters to siege the black city, if they are also the 7 elven gods, then the answer is simply because they want to be free and return to the physical world to wreak havoc. As flemeth says "a reckoning that will shake the heavens".

[madrar]

Speaking of Solas and his views on spirits...I'm reminded of a Sola's/Cole banter after completing the Solas romance. In it Cole reads Solas's thoughts and says that he was starting to see the Inq as being real which means that they are all real which changes everything. So....he doesn't view modern as elves/living creatures as "real"? Evidence that the original elves were actually spirits? So the quickening was actually elves losing their eternal existence as spirits to gain a mortal life that was unknown, at least to them, prior to the creation of the Veil?

Banter with Cole suggests that Solas, unlike the physical races of Thedas and the spirits of the Fade, may exist simultaneously and fully on both sides of the veil, making him "real" and "whole" in a way that other beings are not. There a lot of theory crafting in the Solas thread about this, but threads tend to get scattered and buried by the sheer volume of romance angst. A few links:

Why spirits want to across the veil

Solas as fundamentally distinct from the rest of the Elvish pantheon

Solas and Cole on spirits becoming "real" , pre-veil entities vs physical elves/spirit divide

[Steelcan]

ok now I've caught up on everything in this thread.

 

What do we know about the Forgotten ones, other than that they may be the Tevinter Old Gods?

[Steelcan]

there were 7 Tevinter Old Gods (8 counting Draconics), and 9 Elven Gods (8 if Fen'Harel isn't really a god)

 

They'd probably have symmetry between the two pantheons for numbers, so we can assume that there are 8 and 8 with Fen'Harel in the middle who is not quite either one.

 

But Solas tells us that he doesn't beleive the Elven Gods were really gods, so he's either lying, possible, or something else is up.  I'm partial to an explanation that the elven gods were supremely powerful mages that over time became considered gods, they might have been possessed by spirits/demons that are simply unrivaled in power by others.

 

Obviously they are somehow connected to the Blight, whether they created it or simply used it

[Aimi]

What do we know about the Formless ones, other than that they may be the Tevinter Old Gods?

The Formless One is the fourth member of the group of demons that supposedly came up with blood magic, along with Imshael, Gaxkang, and Xebenkeck. You're thinking of the Forgotten Ones.

[Steelcan]

The Formless One is the fourth member of the group of demons that supposedly came up with blood magic, along with Imshael, Gaxkang, and Xebenkeck. You're thinking of the Forgotten Ones.

my bad

[Ranadiel Marius]

ok now I've caught up on everything in this thread.

What do we know about the Forgotten ones, other than that they may be the Tevinter Old Gods?

We know the names of three of them, although I can't recall any of them off the top of my head.

[JustJennie]

Side note, I'm thinking Sola's might be the one who abandoned his name twice in the translated temple of Mythal texts.
.

My first thought too but I'm pretty sure its Abeles because it makes a reference to begin known by his sorrow which is his name....

[Aimi]

Gaxkang, Xebenkeck, Imshael, and the Formless One as has been pointed out by Eirene and numerous times in here already.
 
(Not trying to be a dick, just pointing it out. Big thread, i know.)

He might have actually been referring to Anaris, Geldauran, and Daern'thal, who are actually credited as Forgotten Ones. Their names are in Fen'Harel's Codex entry from Origins.

[myahele]

Hmmm, if the well of sorrows is the collective consciousness of Mythals followers once they died then I wonder if lyrium (red and blue) are something similar

I never likedd the thought of it, but seeing that Mythals temple was golden (and her followers wor golden outfits) then maybe the black city was once an elven construct? Corypheus did say he "walked the golden halls" kinda like when we entered the ruins of mythal

[Ranadiel Marius]

He might have actually been referring to Anaris, Geldauran, and Daern'thal, who are actually credited as Forgotten Ones. Their names are in Fen'Harel's Codex entry from Origins.

Yeah that is who I meant. I didn't even realize we knew any of them till I came across a purple staff in DAI that referenced Daern'thal in DAI and then googled him to see if his name was known or not.

[madrar]

If the Fade is a reflection of thoughts and intentions. Why is the Black city omnipresent? (that's an interesting thought).

Suppose that outside of it being physically there, it is a thought continuously omnipresent and being produced? What could be generating that thought? The Darkspawn-taint seems to be omnipresent. Could it be that? The Architect did say that they (the darkspawn) wish to join perfection, drawn by a 'terribly beautiful song' that is the old gods. Perhaps its their collective need to reach the Black city through the Old gods?

That's not quite right. Spirits are a reflection of thoughts and intentions. The Fade is a reflection of reality- no sentient influence required. Remember, the laws of the physical world may bend in the Fade, but they are not absolutely broken. The fact that the Black City exists at an equidistant but unreachable point in the fade suggests that its physical counterpart exists in the (similarly equidistant and unreachable from the surface) direct center of the planet. It is simultaneously the Fade-side "seat of the Maker" and the physical-side Deep abyss.