412 réponses à ce sujet

[xnarcosysx]

Love reading through this but some of you are thinking that the archdemon's/old gods are the forgotten ones and that the creators or good elven pantheon is locked in the fade. It's the other way around. Solas locked then all away and made the forgotten ones go to the abyss and made the creators sleep.

Closest thing to an abyss is the fade. Closest thing to sleeping is the actual sleeping old gods. Only the elven pantheon were allowed to turn into dragons. Plus the Dalish history says they mostly forgot about the forgotten ones outside of their dreams. That's in the fade.

The forgotten ones are in the fade. Locked away from the mortal world.
The creators/elven gods/old gods are the sleeping dragons. They get tainted by the blight and turn into archdemons.

[azarhal]

Love reading through this but some of you are thinking that the archdemon's/old gods are the forgotten ones and that the creators or good elven pantheon is locked in the fade. It's the other way around. Solas locked then all away and made the forgotten ones go to the abyss and made the creators sleep.

Closest thing to an abyss is the fade. Closest thing to sleeping is the actual sleeping old gods. Only the elven pantheon were allowed to turn into dragons. Plus the Dalish history says they mostly forgot about the forgotten ones outside of their dreams. That's in the fade.

The forgotten ones are in the fade. Locked away from the mortal world.
The creators/elven gods/old gods are the sleeping dragons. They get tainted by the blight and turn into archdemons.

 

DAI Andruil's codex talks of the Forgotten Ones living in the Void (which is also called the abyss in the codex) well before anything happened to Arlathan. It was one of Andruil's hunting ground, until the other gods decided to make her stop going there because it was making her crazy. No mortal or god could remain in the Void, so I don't think it was the Fade, especially if back then the Veil didn't exist.

[myahele]

Also there was a time way before the veil existed and it was that time that dragons ruled. And if shapeshifting into a dragon was reserved for the gods and their chosen.... Then maybe ancient dragon gods predated the elven ones

With the dragons decline, elves rose.

[xnarcosysx]

DAI Andruil's codex talks of the Forgotten Ones living in the Void (which is also called the abyss in the codex) well before anything happened to Arlathan. It was one of Andruil's hunting ground, until the other gods decided to make her stop going there because it was making her crazy. No mortal or god could remain in the Void, so I don't think it was the Fade, especially if back then the Veil didn't exist.

So they called it something else.

[madrar]

What I find confusing is that Blood Magic would be attributed to Ethereal beings at all. Regardless of the Old Gods' whispers from the Fade or demonic tampering by the Forbidden Ones, Blood Magic essentially stunts progression as a mage by locking you out of the Fade or so Solas says. Why would beings from the Fade or locked in the Fade know or want to teach that type of "physical" magic?

Sorry to harp on this, but I'd give anything to get my hands on that Solas quote. I can only recall him firmly defending the use of blood magic as no more inherently "wrong" or corrupt as any other source, (as opposed to blight magic, which seems to be anathema) but if that's not the whole story...

[Steelcan]

It's in that same conversation. He said he never pursued blood magic because it would lock him out of the Fade. But I was working off of the context that he was just a really old elf and not some elven god spirit entity so I assumed it applied to all mages. I could be wrong about this and it could just apply to Solas specifically. Sorry I didn't get at you sooner. 

I don't see why it wouldn't apply to all mages, as he says earlier "magic is magic, just as water is water" if anything he'd be above that because you know, god and all

[Monica21]

This thread is fantastic. And in much the same way I felt after playing DA2, I wish for a Lore forum so threads like this don't get buried in campaign/quest help and romance threads.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't see why it wouldn't apply to all mages, as he says earlier "magic is magic, just as water is water" if anything he'd be above that because you know, god and all

 

Apparently not.

 

Which makes me wonder just how powerful those elven gods were considering Flemeth has been bested over the centuries admittedly though thats just some loose fragment of a "God".

 

I buy into the thinking that these are and were just fairly powerful individuals that were attributed to godhood.

 

Like Greek and Roman Mythos.

[Reznore57]

Not sure if somebody already talked about this :

 

Spoiler

 

You can only read that by drinking the well of Sorrow , it's some text you can find with veilfire in the temple of Mythal.

I'm not sure exactly what it's supposed to mean , and not really related to the Black City but whatever.

 

Anyway that's what I think it could mean:

 

I suppose one elf , slave or priest of Dirthamen (Gods of secrets ) figured out how to shapeshift into a dragon.It seems the practise was forbidden except for a few chosen ones.(Makes sense, you don't want your people to do that , imagine the chaos during a war if everyone can shapeshift into a flying monster...)

 Ghilan'nain told the elf to do that , and the Goddess of the Halla story is...she wasn't always a god , she gained their favors (possible she was a follower of Andruil) and then yeah godhood!

So it's possible at one point , some people figured out elven "Godhood" wasn't so hard to achieve.

Mythal refused to judge or save the man , and let Elgar'nan deal with it.

I find that interesting , Elgar'nan is an ass (true story) he is all about retribution , vengeance , punishment .Justice is really not his thing.

So did Mythal refuse to get involved because she couldn't be "fair" , and used Elgar'nan to do the dirty work?(to stop the "we'll all going to be Gods" nonsense)

 

Then the "mass with blazing eyes"?It could be the elven people starting to get a bit pissed off and starting to rebel against the Creators.

[Br3admax]

Apparently not.

 

Which makes me wonder just how powerful those elven gods were considering Flemeth has been bested over the centuries admittedly though thats just some loose fragment of a "God".

 

I buy into the thinking that these are and were just fairly powerful individuals that were attributed to godhood.

 

Like Greek and Roman Mythos.

Flemeth never even fought Conabar. Sure she faced the Hero of Ferelden, and I accept that as an honest victory despite all the reasoning she'd have not to kill them, but that is a player character. They also face down archdemons that no one else can stand against. That aside, Flemeth is not as powerful as Mythal, just as Solas is not as powerful as the Fen'harel. They're far above mortals. Being able to be defeated does not stop one from being a god anyway. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Back to the topic of the Black City...

 

I do not necessarily believe it's Arlathan, but my theory is similar to others' in that I believe the Blight was already within.  It could have been Arlathan, it could have been a dwarven city (the ancient thaig in DA2 suggested dwarves once had magical abilities, and it might somehow be connected), but whatever it was then, the Blight had appeared inside it.

 

For the safety of the rest of the people, the city with its blighted core was sealed away.  The Veil was created to separate reality and the Fade, most likely for the purpose of sealing away whatever city the Black City once was.  At first, you could only see the golden walls... but the Blight grows over surfaces and spreads, so in time the Blight grew over the outer walls, turning the Golden City to black.

 

I don't think Corypheus was lying when he said that the city was already black when he went there.  Most likely no one expected it to be contagious, but it was:  a disease that basically embodies hatred, rage, and all of the other violent and negative emotions that people can experience.

 

I'll toss out another theory for you:  that the Black City is the source for both the Blight and for red lyrium, and it is likely connected somehow with the Void that Andruil and the Formless One were both connected to.  The Fade itself is not the Void, or the Abyss.  The Fade is simply a construct, and perhaps without it even dwarves would dream.

 

The fact that dwarves do not dream (and possibly also qunari) is part of what makes me suspect that the Black City is not elven but dwarven in origin.

 

We know what was in the Black City, and I think it's unlikely that there's any godly throne there that can grant people divine power over all things.  And yet, there is probably something there--a weapon, a powerful magical artifact, etc.  There was something there that Dumat apparently wanted, or at least something he believed to have been present.

 

Also, we know that Corypheus was one of the seven Tevinter magisters to visit the Black City.  One is said to have been possibly eaten by the others.  Another may be the Architect, but this is unclear.  But, we are told that darkspawn basically poured out of the Black City, not just the magisters.  This tells us that either at least one magister was a woman, who warped into a broodmother, or that the Black City was in fact not empty at all--and it does seem unlikely that everyone could be evacuated before it was sealed into the Fade.

 

Darkspawn have also been seen coming from eluvians.  There's probably still a path open somewhere into the Black City via eluvian--or one of the remaining magisters may have been able to unlock an eluvian from some unknown region in the Deep Roads.  If there is an eluvian (or more than one) connected to the Black City, that obviously makes it seem more likely to be an elven city (and backs up the Arlathan theory) than a dwarven one, but we also know that dwarves and elves once worked together and may have once been the same people.

 

I actually posted a similar thread a while back regarding this theory, but it got no replies and was buried by other threads pretty fast.

[Mr.House]

There seems to be confusion. Forgotten Ones are the elven ones, Forbidden Ones are the four powerful demons that are credited to have taught mortals blood magic(and we have "killed" three of them so far)

[Reznore57]

MMm it seems there's another text you can get in the Arbor Wild :http://dragonage.wik...d_Elven_Writing

 

This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old as to be incomprehensible.

There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the Earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."

For one moment there is a vivid image of two overlapping spheres; unknown flowers bloom inside their centers. Then it fades.

 

                                                         

 

The "two overlapping spheres" is interesting because it's something we've heard about before : in a strange book in the Black Emporim , you could read :

Two shadowed spheres among stars subtitled "An eclipse as Fen'Harel stirred"

                                                

 

Anyway the main text is obscure "Hunt the Pillars of the Earth"...I assume we're talking Gods here , their "workers" I guess are the followers or faithful (or slaves) ...And someone killed or wanted to kill the Gods.

I think it's something Fen Harel said at one point , he was a God of rebellion afterall.

[Steelcan]

We know Corypheus and the other Magisters took the Blight in willingly, and we can infer that the Blight was already present in the Black City.

 

Its reasonable to assume that the Blight was contained there for purposes of isolating it from the rest of the world.  Now we need the reason why it was contained, perhaps it was used as a weapon by the Forgotten Ones in their war against the Elven pantheon, explaining why darkspawn predate the Magister's trespass.  And if the Tevinter Old Gods = Forgotten Ones, it'd be reasonable to believe that they sent them there to get the Blight. 

 

Why do that?  Perhaps because they knew they'd spread the Blight and free them from their prisons.

 

Alternatively the Old Gods could be the Elven pantheon, but I'm unsure why they'd want the Blight to spread

[Brass_Buckles]

We know Corypheus and the other Magisters took the Blight in willingly, and we can infer that the Blight was already present in the Black City.

 

Its reasonable to assume that the Blight was contained there for purposes of isolating it from the rest of the world.  Now we need the reason why it was contained, perhaps it was used as a weapon by the Forgotten Ones in their war against the Elven pantheon, explaining why darkspawn predate the Magister's trespass.  And if the Tevinter Old Gods = Forgotten Ones, it'd be reasonable to believe that they sent them there to get the Blight. 

 

Why do that?  Perhaps because they knew they'd spread the Blight and free them from their prisons.

 

Alternatively the Old Gods could be the Elven pantheon, but I'm unsure why they'd want the Blight to spread

 

The problem with this theory that the Forgotten Ones were the Tevinter Old Gods and somehow wanted the magisters to bring back the Blight is that they also ended up blighted... I can't imagine that they ever would have wanted to contract the Blight, themselves.  And it does seem as if the Old Gods are subject to some directive from the taint as well, even though they direct the lesser darkspawn.

[Steelcan]

The problem with this theory that the Forgotten Ones were the Tevinter Old Gods and somehow wanted the magisters to bring back the Blight is that they also ended up blighted... I can't imagine that they ever would have wanted to contract the Blight, themselves.  And it does seem as if the Old Gods are subject to some directive from the taint as well, even though they direct the lesser darkspawn.

Well as was mentioned earlier, it is actually kind of a neat deal for the Archdemons

[TEWR]

DAI Andruil's codex talks of the Forgotten Ones living in the Void (which is also called the abyss in the codex) well before anything happened to Arlathan. It was one of Andruil's hunting ground, until the other gods decided to make her stop going there because it was making her crazy. No mortal or god could remain in the Void, so I don't think it was the Fade, especially if back then the Veil didn't exist.

 

Interestingly, the Void is a term used by the Chantry to denote where those cast out of the Maker's favor go upon death.

 

Perhaps there's a link?

[Master Warder Z_]

Flemeth never even fought Conabar. Sure she faced the Hero of Ferelden, and I accept that as an honest victory despite all the reasoning she'd have not to kill them, but that is a player character. They also face down archdemons that no one else can stand against. That aside, Flemeth is not as powerful as Mythal, just as Solas is not as powerful as the Fen'harel. They're far above mortals. Being able to be defeated does not stop one from being a god anyway. 

 

Godhood implies something to the contrary in my own opinion anyway; it sort of indicates that being as being undefeatable and all knowing.

 

Which is why i attribute them more to the Roman and Greek Pantheon in which in their Mythos Gods can be bested, Gods can be defeated, And in rare instances.

 

Can die.

[Brass_Buckles]

Well as was mentioned earlier, it is actually kind of a neat deal for the Archdemons

 

I don't think it really is, though... the Blight is basically an infection comprised of rage, hatred, self-loathing, etc.  I believe the Archdemons are effectively just as much victims as any other entity--the darkspawn dig them up, they become blighted and tainted, and then they are no longer themselves.  They command the other darkspawn, sure.  They become powerful, sure.  But they also seem to be following directions from something else.  Perhaps the Blight itself is sentient.  We don't know.

 

Just because they seem to get a sweet deal, doesn't mean they really do.  If you read the books... well, the taint definitely isn't something pleasant to have, even if you're a brand shiny new Warden.

 

What I take from it is that someone or something is directing the archdemons, who are given a certain degree of free will and intelligence in order to enable them to direct the course of the Blight.  It would make sense if the Blight were intended as a weapon, but I almost think it's something that was already present, something that came from the Abyss.  Remember Andruil's Abyss armor from the codex that was causing her to go insane?  Hm, sounds suspiciously like Samson's red lyrium armor, doesn't it?  And what is red lyrium?  Ah, yes, blighted lyrium...  There's something to it.  Eventually we'll know what. But we don't have all the puzzle pieces, just yet.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Well as was mentioned earlier, it is actually kind of a neat deal for the Archdemons

If the Blight is such a sweet deal for the Forgotten Ones AND they created it, why didn't they just infect themselves with the Blight when they created it? I do not buy for a second that the Old Gods want to be infected by the Blight. In fact I am going to counter that whoever or whatever the souls that inhabit the Old Gods are, they are allied with Mythal and the Blight is counter to their plans (whatever those may be).

 

When you find Keiran in the Fade, if he has an Old God soul, he mentions that he is there because it is time. He is there because Flemeth is ready to claim the Old God soul and it wants to be claimed by her. I don't see any other explanation as to why Keiran would think it was time since he hadn't even met Flemeth beforehand. So what implications does this have?.....I have no freaking clue. Well okay, we know Mythal wants revenge, so if she has allied with the Old Gods then they probably are not allied with whoever killed her. So if the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones like so many people seem to think, then that would probably mean that one of the proper Elven gods is behind Mythal's murder....or perhaps all of them. Although I guess that doesn't really fit with Mythal just accepting whatever Solas does is the ending since his goal seems to be to save the Elven Gods stuck in Eluvians (probably in the Black City). If we go with the theory that the Old Gods are dragons that have a portion of an Elven God's soul bound to it, then I guess the pieces would fit together somewhat nicer as then Solas and Flemeth have goals more closely aligned. Incidentally, that theory could explain why a portion of Mythal's soul survived as well (it was in her dragon when she was slain). But then that train of thought leaves open the question of who and where the Forgotten Ones are.....and I went on a tangent there.

 

Bottom line of my thoughts, Mythal and the Old Gods are aligned, and the Blight seems to be interfering with their plans(although I guess they might be using it as a way for Mythal to find and awaken the Old Gods).

[Steelcan]

Allying with the old gods is kinda pointless seeing as how there's at most three of them.

We also don't know much about their personalities before they were imprisoned. But we do know they are attributes for sending the magisters to the Golden City, and they had to know what was in it. The clearly didn't send them there to destroy the Blight or fight but to unleash it, and they probably wanted the power it gave them, speculation on the Blight's sentience aside, and ignoring the physical transformation it is a nice deal with them.

Other evidence would be the Old Gods calling to the Darkspawn, it may be an unconscious effort, but it might not be, we have yet to see an old god in its lair uncorrupted

[Ranadiel Marius]

Allying with the old gods is kinda pointless seeing as how there's at most three of them.

We also don't know much about their personalities before they were imprisoned. But we do know they are attributes for sending the magisters to the Golden City, and they had to know what was in it. The clearly didn't send them there to destroy the Blight or fight but to unleash it, and they probably wanted the power it gave them, speculation on the Blight's sentience aside, and ignoring the physical transformation it is a nice deal with them.

Other evidence would be the Old Gods calling to the Darkspawn, it may be an unconscious effort, but it might not be, we have yet to see an old god in its lair uncorrupted

Unless she has managed to save the souls of the others through means other than the Dark Ritual (and I strongly believe that the Archdemon's soul will end up being saved by Flemeth somehow regardless of whether the Dark Ritual has been performed), then Mythal has five allied god souls and two more in the wings. 

 

They are attributed with leading the Magisters to the Golden City and we assume they know what was in it. Either of those could be wrong, and I personally believe that it was actually demons posing as the Old Gods that were actually responsible (no real proof that I show, but nothing really against it either).

 

While we haven't seen an Old God in its lair uncorrupted, we have seen an uncorrupted Old God that is awake. Keiran has an Old God soul and there is nothing in the game (at least that I came across) that indicates that either Orlais or Skyhold ever saw increased darkspawn activity from the darkspawn trying to reach him. And that is an Old God soul that they don't have to dig through tons of rock to reach. If the Old Gods wanted to found by the taint, there should have been waves of Darkspawn attacking either location because to the mindless Darkspawn it should have been the loudest version of the song. But it wasn't, Keiran's Old God soul wasn't singing to the Dark Spawn. I don't think the song is the Old Gods, I think that whatever it is that holds them in slumber is the source of the song. I think the song is what went wrong, whatever is the source of the song, is what betrayed Flemeth, which is not the Old Gods. As Flemeth says, "Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance.".....and I don't think the connection I am trying to make there translates well from my head to words.

[azarhal]

Interestingly, the Void is a term used by the Chantry to denote where those cast out of the Maker's favor go upon death.

 

Perhaps there's a link?

 

I personally think there is a link, a lots of the current beliefs seem to be based on what was scavenged from the elven empire.

 

The Void is also called the abyss in some text. In the Chant of Light, the abyss is call the "well of souls" and it explain how life start from there. If the Void is where soul/spirit ends up before being "recycled" in the cycle of life, that might explain the term "forgotten ones and forgotten knowledge". The term was not about evil entities people shouldn't talk about, it was literal: the things in the Void are forgotten to time, because they are long dead. It is interesting that the Chant claims Andraste saw the abyss, maybe there is a link between Andraste and Andruil beside how the names start.

 

There is also the Anvil of the Void, which was create by a vision Caradin had (Dwarf don't dream right...) Caradin's journal is quite dark too, because the Anvil is something that work by sacrificing life. Andruil would approve...

 

I think the Taint might be related to the Void though. Which would make Andruil a prime suspect for it to be released, but at the same time Mythal stole her memories of how to get there...so...yeah...

[Ranadiel Marius]

I think the Taint might be related to the Void though. Which would make Andruil a prime suspect for it to be released, but at the same time Mythal stole her memories of how to get there...so...yeah...

Well that could be motivation to kill Mythal, Andruil killed Mythal to steal back the memories of how to reach the void.