412 réponses à ce sujet

[xnarcosysx]

There seems to be confusion. Forgotten Ones are the elven ones, Forbidden Ones are the four powerful demons that are credited to have taught mortals blood magic(and we have "killed" three of them so far)

No.

Forgotten ones: subset and maligned portion of elven pantheon
http://dragonage.wik..._Forgotten_Ones

Forbidden ones: 4 demons. Could be linked to elven.
http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones

but there are the creators, good ones. Forgotten ones, bad ones. Forbidden ones. ..???

Creators locked in their heaven. Which they loved being in the physical realm so I think they are the dragons (old gods) that get blighted and become archdemons. Forgotten ones locked in abyss and are evil. Everything bad about magic is learned from tapping into the fade so I assume they are there. Forbidden ones may be the 4 more powerful forgotten ones.

[Steelcan]

Unless she has managed to save the souls of the others through means other than the Dark Ritual (and I strongly believe that the Archdemon's soul will end up being saved by Flemeth somehow regardless of whether the Dark Ritual has been performed), then Mythal has five allied god souls and two more in the wings. 

 

They are attributed with leading the Magisters to the Golden City and we assume they know what was in it. Either of those could be wrong, and I personally believe that it was actually demons posing as the Old Gods that were actually responsible (no real proof that I show, but nothing really against it either).

 

While we haven't seen an Old God in its lair uncorrupted, we have seen an uncorrupted Old God that is awake. Keiran has an Old God soul and there is nothing in the game (at least that I came across) that indicates that either Orlais or Skyhold ever saw increased darkspawn activity from the darkspawn trying to reach him. And that is an Old God soul that they don't have to dig through tons of rock to reach. If the Old Gods wanted to found by the taint, there should have been waves of Darkspawn attacking either location because to the mindless Darkspawn it should have been the loudest version of the song. But it wasn't, Keiran's Old God soul wasn't singing to the Dark Spawn. I don't think the song is the Old Gods, I think that whatever it is that holds them in slumber is the source of the song. I think the song is what went wrong, whatever is the source of the song, is what betrayed Flemeth, which is not the Old Gods. As Flemeth says, "Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance.".....and I don't think the connection I am trying to make there translates well from my head to words.

The only archdemon that might also have been DR'd was Dumat, and that soul is unaccounted for.  There's also the "8th" Old God Draconis who is hinted at in a few places.

 

We can reason that the Magisters knew what a demon sounds like when it tempts you.  Also, Corypheus before turning didn't use Blood Magic, so he'd have been unlikely to be listening to whispers unless he had a very compelling reason to believe it was genuinely the Old Gods.  He wasn't the mosnter he became until he did the ritual.

 

We've been told the Darkspawn and Wardens hear the songs of the old Gods numerous times, I see no reason to doubt it.  The Architect tells us this, numerous wardens tell us this, the Mother implies it heavily.  Morrigan probably had ways to keep the Darkspawn from "hearing" Keiran

[Dune01]

You know, I was thinking about Eluvians the other day, when a thought came to mind. What if Merrills/DalishOrigin Eluvian is actually the one that leads to the Black City? It spread the taint, did it not? And I noticed it during the scene with Morrigan in the background. Something stinks there, not a single other Eluvian spread the taint. As far as I know at least.

[Mr.House]

No.

Forgotten ones: subset and maligned portion of elven pantheon
http://dragonage.wik..._Forgotten_Ones

Forbidden ones: 4 demons. Could be linked to elven.
http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones

but there are the creators, good ones. Forgotten ones, bad ones. Forbidden ones. ..???

Creators locked in their heaven. Which they loved being in the physical realm so I think they are the dragons (old gods) that get blighted and become archdemons. Forgotten ones locked in abyss and are evil. Everything bad about magic is learned from tapping into the fade so I assume they are there. Forbidden ones may be the 4 more powerful forgotten ones.

You just posted what I just said, just longer with links.

[Tielis]

No.

Forgotten ones: subset and maligned portion of elven pantheon
http://dragonage.wik..._Forgotten_Ones

Forbidden ones: 4 demons. Could be linked to elven.
http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones

but there are the creators, good ones. Forgotten ones, bad ones. Forbidden ones. ..???

Creators locked in their heaven. Which they loved being in the physical realm so I think they are the dragons (old gods) that get blighted and become archdemons. Forgotten ones locked in abyss and are evil. Everything bad about magic is learned from tapping into the fade so I assume they are there. Forbidden ones may be the 4 more powerful forgotten ones.

 

Okay, what if we have it backwards?  Wouldn't be surprising at all since most of the lore we've been given is wrong, according to Solas.

 

Elven Creators are the Old Gods trapped in the Abyss due to red lyrium poisoning, and that's why Solas doesn't want the Grey Wardens to kill them.  Forgotten Ones are trapped in the Black City because they're... um... bad?

[Mr.House]

The Old Gods are clearly connected to elven lore, Solas is just WAAAAY  too defensive about it and even outright says killing them all could cause more issues.

[Mr.House]

The only archdemon that might also have been DR'd was Dumat, and that soul is unaccounted for.  There's also the "8th" Old God Draconis who is hinted at in a few places.

 

We can reason that the Magisters knew what a demon sounds like when it tempts you.  Also, Corypheus before turning didn't use Blood Magic, so he'd have been unlikely to be listening to whispers unless he had a very compelling reason to believe it was genuinely the Old Gods.  He wasn't the mosnter he became until he did the ritual.

 

We've been told the Darkspawn and Wardens hear the songs of the old Gods numerous times, I see no reason to doubt it.  The Architect tells us this, numerous wardens tell us this, the Mother implies it heavily.  Morrigan probably had ways to keep the Darkspawn from "hearing" Keiran

Also people who have red lyruim also hear the song, now that we know what red lyruim really is, it makes alot of sense.

[xnarcosysx]

After reading more there is like 12 total gods. Nine elven pantheon and 3 forgotten ones. But everyone talks of there being 7. Are we not counting Ghilan'nain and Fen'harel as part of the 7 creators. Or am I getting it confused with 7 blight because Fen'harel and mythal aren't locked away sleeping. This assuming the creators are the same as the old gods.

[xnarcosysx]

The Old Gods are clearly connected to elven lore, Solas is just WAAAAY too defensive about it and even outright says killing them all could cause more issues.

Because the old gods are the 7 creators in the elven pantheon. I can almost guarantee it.

[Tielis]

Because the old gods are the 7 creators in the elven pantheon. I can almost guarantee it.

 

Yep.  Solas goes, "There's nothing in the lore connecting my people to the Old Gods."

 

[xnarcosysx]

Yep. Solas goes, "There's nothing in the lore connecting my people to the Old Gods."

It's just not outright said. So I can only guess he gets ticked about killing the old gods is because it's his fam.

[Reznore57]

Well that could be motivation to kill Mythal, Andruil killed Mythal to steal back the memories of how to reach the void.

 

I also found this in Mythal temple :

 

Spoiler

 

 

Anyway this is confusing but it seems Andruil had some golden/darkness theme going on in her tales.

I suspect she got tainted at one point , also "blood" "sacrifice"....

I sort of feel like the elven Gods had a similar story to Corynoob and co , they saw themselves as Gods , and out of pride they got caught in something dangerous.

 

Mythal/Flemeth says she will bring reckoning to the "Heavens" and she complains "as long as the music plays , we dance".

Back then it seems she was keeping things in check and was able to rescue Andruil from whatever.

She also saves an old gold soul from the "clutch of darkness" (Blight).

When she got killed , it seems things got out of hands .

 

The Blight in the Golden City started to really spread once the magisters went there , and the red lyrium was also hidden somewhere.I assume the Blight was a problem known to the elves (well maybe only their rulers knew) and they tried to contain it.

Maybe their Gods were beyond redemption (again same as Cory even if he got tainted , he still want to go back to the Golden City , what a tool) so they locked them away.

 

Anyway I think no one really knows what the Blight is , and the more scary thing is no one knows how to get rid of it

[Ranadiel Marius]

The only archdemon that might also have been DR'd was Dumat, and that soul is unaccounted for.  There's also the "8th" Old God Draconis who is hinted at in a few places.

 

We can reason that the Magisters knew what a demon sounds like when it tempts you.  Also, Corypheus before turning didn't use Blood Magic, so he'd have been unlikely to be listening to whispers unless he had a very compelling reason to believe it was genuinely the Old Gods.  He wasn't the mosnter he became until he did the ritual.

 

We've been told the Darkspawn and Wardens hear the songs of the old Gods numerous times, I see no reason to doubt it.  The Architect tells us this, numerous wardens tell us this, the Mother implies it heavily.  Morrigan probably had ways to keep the Darkspawn from "hearing" Keiran

I said through means other than the DR. We know that a warden killing an archdemon prevents the archdemon from respawning. We don't know why. They say it is because two souls cannot exist in a single vessel, so the grey warden's soul causes the archdemon's soul to explode, but we also know that is complete bs as we have seen a bare minimum of two characters in DA with two souls in their body (possibly three depending on the speicifcs of Solas's situation post-DAI). Therefore, we don't know the actual mechanic of what is going on there when the archdemon doesn't respawn. Therefore it is within the realm of possibility, that the archdemon's soul survives and it is possible to recover it.

 

We can reason that, sure. We can also reason that no two demons temp you the same way, so a particularly crafty demon might have been able to trick them despite them being used to dealing with demons. 

 

They attribute the song to the Old Gods because it is coming from the location of the Old Gods, that doesn't meant that it has to be coming from the Old Gods. Also I am going to point out that there is a codex entry in DAI that mentions that the song at close range was loud enough to cause a cave in when the Grey Wardens were trying to reach one of the Old Gods. You say that Morrigan just happened to have ways to keep the Darkspawn from hearing Keiran, but I would counter that an Old God should be stronger than Morrigan and Morrigan is sometimes half a continent away from Keiran. Unless the game directly states that she is blocking the singing or at least implies it, I don't think there is anything to support that Keiran's Old God soul is singing (or would be if it could). Therefore, I am standing by my position that the Old Gods do not want the Blight (although I acknowledge that my idea of the song being part of their prison could be wrong and it could just be an unintentional thing).

[Aurok]

The vints didn't destroy Arlathan; the 'god' elves bounced it out to the Fade (using the lake it is seen sinking into like a giant eluvian mirror) to try and put it out of reach of their enemies and preserve the purity of the elves. Perhaps with the intention of waiting out the shortlived humans before returning.

Once there in the Fade -as aka the Golden City- they couldn't figure out how to get back again and -already tainted by their contact with humans- they began to fester and became increasingly desperate to get back. S*** goes bad until eventually they become the blight. There they remain trapped until the vint mages open a path to the now Black City in the fade and accidentally release them upon the world, where they set about finding their slumbering god elves (archdemons). The blight song being just a corrupted/vengeful version of the 'song' the elves used to have. They collectively no longer want to wait out humanity so much as scorch the earth and start over.

[xnarcosysx]

I said through means other than the DR. We know that a warden killing an archdemon prevents the archdemon from respawning. We don't know why. They say it is because two souls cannot exist in a single vessel, so the grey warden's soul causes the archdemon's soul to explode, but we also know that is complete bs as we have seen a bare minimum of two characters in DA with two souls in their body (possibly three depending on the speicifcs of Solas's situation post-DAI). Therefore, we don't know the actual mechanic of what is going on there when the archdemon doesn't respawn. Therefore it is within the realm of possibility, that the archdemon's soul survives and it is possible to recover it.

We can reason that, sure. We can also reason that no two demons temp you the same way, so a particularly crafty demon might have been able to trick them despite them being used to dealing with demons.

They attribute the song to the Old Gods because it is coming from the location of the Old Gods, that doesn't meant that it has to be coming from the Old Gods. Also I am going to point out that there is a codex entry in DAI that mentions that the song at close range was loud enough to cause a cave in when the Grey Wardens were trying to reach one of the Old Gods. You say that Morrigan just happened to have ways to keep the Darkspawn from hearing Keiran, but I would counter that an Old God should be stronger than Morrigan and Morrigan is sometimes half a continent away from Keiran. Unless the game directly states that she is blocking the singing or at least implies it, I don't think there is anything to support that Keiran's Old God soul is singing (or would be if it could). Therefore, I am standing by my position that the Old Gods do not want the Blight (although I acknowledge that my idea of the song being part of their prison could be wrong and it could just be an unintentional thing).

The mechanism is there. Flemythal Daud thru had to be willing.

Grey wardens aren't willing hosts.
With the OGB the soul went to inhabit him but because he was not a fully developed child, he wasn't able to be willing or unwilling. So the archdemon's soul was just cohabiting the same body. Thus Kieran saying he missed the voices or whatever after flemythal took the old god soul out. If the Old gods soul was In charge, Kieran would no longer be there. Much like flemythal taking over her daughters. The daughters are essentially no longer there.

So it's not bs.

[Hellion Rex]

The vision reference is from Caridin's journal.

Good Lord, that guy was a piece of work.

[Hellion Rex]

The only archdemon that might also have been DR'd was Dumat, and that soul is unaccounted for. There's also the "8th" Old God Draconis who is hinted at in a few places.

We can reason that the Magisters knew what a demon sounds like when it tempts you. Also, Corypheus before turning didn't use Blood Magic, so he'd have been unlikely to be listening to whispers unless he had a very compelling reason to believe it was genuinely the Old Gods. He wasn't the mosnter he became until he did the ritual.

We've been told the Darkspawn and Wardens hear the songs of the old Gods numerous times, I see no reason to doubt it. The Architect tells us this, numerous wardens tell us this, the Mother implies it heavily. Morrigan probably had ways to keep the Darkspawn from "hearing" Keiran

Uh, yeah...did you forget that the first Breaching required the blood of hundreds of slaves and half the lyrium in the empire? That's heavy duty blood magic. So yes, Cory used blood magic before he became darkspawn.

[xnarcosysx]

You just posted what I just said, just longer with links.

Thought you were calling the forgotten ones the 7 good elven pantheon (creators)

[xnarcosysx]

Okay, what if we have it backwards? Wouldn't be surprising at all since most of the lore we've been given is wrong, according to Solas.

Elven Creators are the Old Gods trapped in the Abyss due to red lyrium poisoning, and that's why Solas doesn't want the Grey Wardens to kill them. Forgotten Ones are trapped in the Black City because they're... um... bad?

I don't know if there is any period that they are trapped because of red lyrium. Red lyrium is just blighted lyrium. If they were constantly around it like they are, They would look like Cory's dragon.

[Colonelkillabee]

You know, I was thinking about Eluvians the other day, when a thought came to mind. What if Merrills/DalishOrigin Eluvian is actually the one that leads to the Black City? It spread the taint, did it not? And I noticed it during the scene with Morrigan in the background. Something stinks there, not a single other Eluvian spread the taint. As far as I know at least.

Thank you. People seem to be ignoring this. That and the fact that the old gods' song isn't something of the taint, but an actual signal sent from the old gods. The old gods were from the elven pantheon. The eluvians can reach the fade and one has a source on the taint, likely from the fade, even the black city itself. And these old gods are seeking said taint.

 

This to me shows the old gods want to be woken, and it points to the elven gods being the ones that locked up the taint in the first place, whatever or whoever it is associated with directly.

 

I think a good question to ask now is, what exactly links the old gods to the taint, and why can tainted creatures hear their song? Seems to point directly to the possibility that the taint, like lyrium, is something alive itself. I think it's suspicious that followers of the old gods can receive dreams from them, and all tainted creatures can hear their song, then even receive dreams from them once they too are blighted. The taint could be the essence of an old god.

 

Hell, even lyrium could. Of some long dead god that no longer exists, like the maker even. Would be appropriate given that templars use it for "holy" powers. Seekers also receive similar anti demon magic abilities from spirits of faith. And after all, if lyrium is a thing alive, where the hell did it come from? Where did the taint come from?

 

Something else to think about, is benevolent spirits normally don't seek to possess anything, but demonic spirits do. Lyrium on its own does not grow, but when tainted, it does. And the taint "possesses" and corrupts everything it touches. The taint is linked to the old gods, one of which is Dumat who has a tie to demons if we're to believe that he gave the tevinter blood magic, which they themselves believe. So in other words, red lyrium, the taint in general could be linked to an old god, one that's more demonic in nature, since even gods are just powerful spirits of a sort and thus open to the same rules, and lyrium would represent the opposite, possibly showing it's the essence of a very powerful old benevolent spirit's energy.

 

Maybe.

 

Rambling end. Whether true or not, it is suspicious that lyrium is something alive, and the taint seems to be as well, and they share some connection of some kind. Both being found in the ground possibly predating the taint found in the Black City. Confusing.

[Angloassassin]

(Has been lurking for quite some time, arriving a midst poorly made wind noises)

 

Well, after DA:I -- especially seeing the Red Lyrium in the Fade; rather close to the Black City in the Nightmare Den might I add, I was thinking that perhaps (Save the Primevil Thaig where Ancient Dwarves might have revered the Song), that most - if not all the Red Lyrium we see has been introduced to the world through the Breach - given the cropping of rifts into different areas. Since the veil has been torn asunder and all that.

 

Hearing that it had the Blight made me stop for a long moment and think, a lot of the thoughts from this Thread really resonating with me.

 

The thought I had was what if the Black City was full of the stuff? Or at least meant to contain it - if Cory had arisen with it embedded in him in DA2, I think that'd be a 3-pointer for that theory. Given the blue, almost metallic look of the stuff that was sticking from him though when we first see him, I'd say that it's a stretch on my part. 

 

Though during the Shrine of Dumat quest in DA:I, he does say that he and his fellow Magisters (Possibly the Architect and several unknown others), willingly accepted the blight that was found there. Given their ability to effect Darkspawn and Wardens (I.E. Warden Prison during Legacy), 

 

 

And with Flemythal putting what looked like the soul of Urthemial in the Eluvian - I'm more than inclined to believe she might have sealed away a portion of her own soul there as well. Similar to the Elven Locket she gives you in DA2. "just a piece...a very small piece"

 

She never really leaves anything to chance - and always seems a step ahead of anyone else. She's definitely playing for the Long Game, and unless she plans on Hi-jacking or influencing Solas/Fen'Harel from the inside, I don't really see her relinquishing control so easily.

 

 

Those are my little thoughts so far, I'm probably going to fade into the black and just lurk some more... 

[Steelcan]

Uh, yeah...did you forget that the first Breaching required the blood of hundreds of slaves and half the lyrium in the empire? That's heavy duty blood magic. So yes, Cory used blood magic before he became darkspawn.

yeah as part of the ritual, but we have an account from a slave of his who said he never used it before

[Antergaton]

 

For the safety of the rest of the people, the city with its blighted core was sealed away.  The Veil was created to separate reality and the Fade, most likely for the purpose of sealing away whatever city the Black City once was.  At first, you could only see the golden walls... but the Blight grows over surfaces and spreads, so in time the Blight grew over the outer walls, turning the Golden City to black.

 

I don't think Corypheus was lying when he said that the city was already black when he went there.  Most likely no one expected it to be contagious, but it was:  a disease that basically embodies hatred, rage, and all of the other violent and negative emotions that people can experience.

 

I'll toss out another theory for you:  that the Black City is the source for both the Blight and for red lyrium, and it is likely connected somehow with the Void that Andruil and the Formless One were both connected to.  The Fade itself is not the Void, or the Abyss.  The Fade is simply a construct, and perhaps without it even dwarves would dream.

 

We know what was in the Black City, and I think it's unlikely that there's any godly throne there that can grant people divine power over all things.  And yet, there is probably something there--a weapon, a powerful magical artifact, etc.  There was something there that Dumat apparently wanted, or at least something he believed to have been present.

 

Darkspawn have also been seen coming from eluvians.  There's probably still a path open somewhere into the Black City via eluvian--or one of the remaining magisters may have been able to unlock an eluvian from some unknown region in the Deep Roads.  If there is an eluvian (or more than one) connected to the Black City, that obviously makes it seem more likely to be an elven city (and backs up the Arlathan theory) than a dwarven one, but we also know that dwarves and elves once worked together and may have once been the same people.

 

I actually posted a similar thread a while back regarding this theory, but it got no replies and was buried by other threads pretty fast.

 

All a good read but I have issues with many things, infact I have issue with many here never mentioning The Maker in any theory.

 

First paragraph, The Blight does not affect objects, you can't get a blighted wall or deskchair.

 

Second paragraph, I mentioned before, if The Maker exists, their comprehension is far beyond that of a man. What Corypheus may have seen as already black was turned black so quickly he could not tell.

 

Third paragraph, Black City is the source of the Blight, we are are all in agreement of that. Red Lyrium is just tainted lyrium, as mentioned in DA:I.

 

Fourth paragraph, why would just sitting on a throne give someone power (in this instance at least)? Being the person with power gives them power, a usurper would need to steal the very power of The Maker to gain that power. Dumat just wanted rid of The Maker.

 

Fifth paragraph, the question would be, did the Magisters know of the Eluvians? Their fights with the elves may have indicated they may have at least seen one. If so, why bother with loads of magic to tear into the fade and Golden City and not just step into it?

[Ranadiel Marius]

The mechanism is there. Flemythal Daud thru had to be willing.

Grey wardens aren't willing hosts.
With the OGB the soul went to inhabit him but because he was not a fully developed child, he wasn't able to be willing or unwilling. So the archdemon's soul was just cohabiting the same body. Thus Kieran saying he missed the voices or whatever after flemythal took the old god soul out. If the Old gods soul was In charge, Kieran would no longer be there. Much like flemythal taking over her daughters. The daughters are essentially no longer there.

So it's not bs.

The initial premise of two souls cannot inhabit a single body is bs. You are proposing a slightly different explanation than what the Grey Wardens believe. I don't really agree with it because you can play a power hungry warden in DAO, one who would probably accept the powers of an Old God, so it seems like it is introducing a whole new can of worms. Further if it is true, that doesn't address what happens to the Old God's soul.

[xnarcosysx]

Did anyone notice the winged and masked statues in the temple of mythal?