412 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

All of the elven gods aren't worth saving because of infighting, so the ones he sealed away were, and while the Golden City may indeed be a quarantine zone, I find it hard to believe this was actually when the split between this world and the Fade happened. Humans already were in some number in Thedas. The Veil clearly existed then already. The betrayal had not yet happened, and Tevinter was still some backwater tribe. The elven gods likely weren't sealed away until the Imperium's conquests began.

 

I believe it's vague, but I disagree- I think the Fall of the Elven pantheon occurred well before the rise of Tevinter.

 

For one, I don't actually believe that all of Thedas was elven before the Tevinter tribals from the north. We know now that the Elves, while having many settlements, weren't a contiguous empire- these were a people so magically advanced that they burrowed through reality and parallel planes with Eluvians rather than build roads between their cities.

 

Rather than 'all of Thedas was elf,' I suspect it was 'elves had dominant cities across all of Thedas,' with the interspacing regions left to the barbarians... some of who may have been dissident/refugee elves fleeing to the geographic margines, but who also could have been humans. This would be supported by the Arcane Warrior quest-encounter in DAO, in which both elves and humans were remembered to be fighting against a common catastrophe of some sort. (The ancient elven-era blight associated with Red Lyrium?)

 

Gaider has let it slip, and Solas seems to support, that being elven (having elven blood) is a magical distinction from being human, which suggests that humans and elves aren't so different after all. Ancient Elves could well have been magically modified humans- which, if true, would mean that the co-existence of humans and elves would have been independent of the Veil.

 

Or, in other words, the elven-human separation may not be a relevant distinguishing factor in the timeline. Humans may pre-date the Veil, even on main-land Thedas.

 

(Plus, the Blight quarantine theory wouldn't work well unless there was a meaningful barrier like the Veil to prevent access to the Golden City. The difference now is that we could have a distinguishing point of a time it was an 'armory' for the weapon of the elven god, and a possible separate point at which a Veil was raised for 'quarantine.')

[Br3admax]

I doubt it simply because the destruction of Arlathan coincides with the "betrayal" committed by Fen'Harel. Which is really the only monkeywrench I see in a otherwise sound theory. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Did anyone else read that text in the Western Approach? It showed that the Song they heard from the old gods wasn't just something in their own heads, and that actually shook the earth so strong that the unstable deep roads caved in. The old gods are the ones calling out.

 

The text was by one of the big holes.

[Nyctyris]

The secret to elven immortality is baldness. 

 

If all elves shaved their hair like solas does, they'd become immortal again.

[Hellion Rex]

I doubt it simply because the destruction of Arlathan coincides with the "betrayal" committed by Fen'Harel. Which is really the only monkeywrench I see in a otherwise sound theory. 

Is it though? Are we sure that the two occur during the same relative time frame?

[Hellion Rex]

 

Gaider has let it slip, and Solas seems to support, that being elven (having elven blood) is a magical distinction from being human, which suggests that humans and elves aren't so different after all. Ancient Elves could well have been magically modified humans- which, if true, would mean that the co-existence of humans and elves would have been independent of the Veil.

 

Or, in other words, the elven-human separation may not be a relevant distinguishing factor in the timeline. Humans may pre-date the Veil, even on main-land Thedas.

Could not the reverse also be possible? Humans being a derivation of the elves?

[Dean_the_Young]

Yassssss, Dean. I love watching you theorize about all of this juicy lore.

 

Haven't you confessed your love for me before? Repeatedly?

 

 

 

And I totally agree with your analysis of it all. Is it possible that the Old Gods (the rival pantheon) went to Tevinter after being cast out/struck down by the "good" pantheon? And their biggest attempt at revenge was the Breaching into the Fade?

 

Possible? Certainly, though there's doubtless far more nuance than that.

 

I suspect that the Tevinter incursion was more of a power grab than revenge- at that point the Elven pantheon and it's adherents had pretty much been smashed and enslaved. If you consider the power dynamics of the Blight and the Old Gods, it could have been a deliberate attempt by the Old Gods to get what, if you ignore the ugly grotesque aesthetic, a pretty sweet power deal: godhood, immortality, and freedom over a subserviant hive mind that basically can not be destroyed?

 

The question comes in about the nature of the Corruption, and the tie-ins to lyrium. The Blight-infected Red Lyrium (probably) pre-dates the Blight by however old the Primevial Thaig is, which suggests that the corruption has also been around since then as well. And since the corruption seems to have been what made the city black...

 

 

...****, a thought just occurred to me. Can anyone find the Gaider quote in which he mentioned that humanity in Thedas was inherently corrupted somehow? A link to the context in which he said it?

 

 

(Tenuous Thought: The Primevial Blight, the Corruption that first created the Red Lyrium in the Primevial Thaig, is the inherited corruption that turns elves into Humans, and which turned the power within the Golden City into the corruptive Blight when the Magisters carried it in with them.)

[Br3admax]

Is it though? Are we sure that the two occur during the same relative time frame?

The codex seems to suggest as much, and Abelas seems to support that the fall of Arlathan came with the murder of Mythal. These two fit together, and while a lot of elven lore may be, well, garbage, this still seems to hold up. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Could not the reverse also be possible? Humans being a derivation of the elves?

 

It's possible. A previous theory of mine was that, since humans lack some of the magic the elves have, the point that the Veil was raised and sundered off the Fade may have been the point that the magic started to fade from elves, created humans, and immortality was lost. Correleation then confused with causation, and so elves remembered blaming humans for making them lose immortality, rather than seeing humans as a consequence to the lost of immortality.

 

What I couldn't quite square was how the human tribes in the islands to the north might be factored in. We know now in DAI (thanks to Bull) that Deep Roads went across the waters to there, but never have we heard anything about elven influence or presence there.

[Jazzpha]

The codex seems to suggest as much, and Abelas seems to support that the fall of Arlathan came with the murder of Mythal. These two fit together, and while a lot of elven lore may be, well, garbage, this still seems to hold up. 

 

But Abelas also says that Fen'Harel had nothing to do with Mythal's murder.

[Jazzpha]

It's possible. A previous theory of mine was that, since humans lack some of the magic the elves have, the point that the Veil was raised and sundered off the Fade may have been the point that the magic started to fade from elves, created humans, and immortality was lost. Correleation then confused with causation, and so elves remembered blaming humans for making them lose immortality, rather than seeing humans as a consequence to the lost of immortality.

 

What I couldn't quite square was how the human tribes in the islands to the north might be factored in. We know now in DAI (thanks to Bull) that Deep Roads went across the waters to there, but never have we heard anything about elven influence or presence there.

 

Perhaps a separate branch of human evolution? Or maybe offshoots/descendants of a different tribe of humans that came from somewhere beyond the Elven empire?

[Br3admax]

But Abelas also says that Fen'Harel had nothing to do with Mythal's murder.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, tbh. We're establishing a timeframe. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I doubt it simply because the destruction of Arlathan coincides with the "betrayal" committed by Fen'Harel. Which is really the only monkeywrench I see in a otherwise sound theory. 

 

Hm. I think I see your point, but could you elaborate a bit?

 

The codex seems to suggest as much, and Abelas seems to support that the fall of Arlathan came with the murder of Mythal. These two fit together, and while a lot of elven lore may be, well, garbage, this still seems to hold up. 

 

I'm not so sure. In my playthrough, Abelas was more about how the elves destroyed themselves, rather than the fall of Mythal in particular led to the fall of Arlathan.

 

In other codexes (such as the admittedly flawed elven ones, which mention no internal division at all), the fall of the Gods is believed to have predated the fall of Arlathan. There seems to have been a time period between the fall of the gods and the fall of Arlathan.

 

 

My vague sequence of events is-

 

-Red Lyrium Blight: at some point, the Red Lyrium Idol in the Primevial Thaig is created. (I believe there is also a codex of the ancient elves fighting figures of Darkness?)

-Creation of the Blight in the Gold City. The Golden Spear is made and placed in the Golden City deliberately.

-Elven internal strife results in the murder of Mythal.

-A possible god war of sorts between pantheons, with possible actors being Arlathan pantheon, Formless Ones/Old Gods, and the underground people (primevial Dwarves or Darkspawn serving Lyrium/the Stone). This is the multi-racial conflict referenced by the Arcane Warrior remnant.

-The Veil is raised, probably by Solas, to deliberately seal away actors (the Elven Pantheon) and forces (the Blight). Surviving Pantheons are trapped in the Fade (the force in the Golden City) or underground (the Old God Prison, Lyrium).

-The Veil limits magic and starts to degrade elven magical society. Immortality is lost, the Gods and Elders who provided guidance are gone, Humans begin to appear in even greater numbers (with some forming Tevinter). Arlathan exists, but is in decline and gravely weakened.

-Ancient Tevinter, sponsored by the Old Gods after contact in the Fade is made by Dreamer Archons, invades the Arlathan elves. Weakened by the pantheon conflict, the raising of the Veil, and the loss of their pantheon, the elves are defeated and enslaved.

[Jazzpha]

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, tbh. We're establishing a timeframe. 

 

True enough. Apologies.

[Hellion Rex]

(I believe there is also a codex of the ancient elves fighting figures of Darkness?)

I don't think there's a codex. But someone said there were mosaics in Mythal's Temple that depicted elves fighting creatures of Darkness. I never found the specific mosaic this user was referring to, during my own adventure in there.

[Jazzpha]

Something else that's interesting is Mythal's mention of denied vengeance and her desire to wage a Crusade against the forces of Heaven (as we see in her convo with Morrigan and Kieran). We know Fen'Harel had nothing to do with her murder, so who precisely is she gunning for? Likely those who betrayed her during the conflict that schism'd/destroyed the old pantheon (in whatever form they may have taken), but that also begs another question-- why wait this long? I assume Urthemiel's soul fragment has something to do with it, but beyond that, I don't know.

 

Maybe war against the other elven gods Fen'Harel sealed away? That would probably render Thedas unto dust, honestly. Both between the tearing of the Veil (again), and then the ensuing war.

[Hellion Rex]

Something else that's interesting is Mythal's mention of denied vengeance and her desire to wage a Crusade against the forces of Heaven (as we see in her convo with Morrigan and Kieran). We know Fen'Harel had nothing to do with her murder, so who precisely is she gunning for? Likely those who betrayed her during the conflict that schism'd/destroyed the old pantheon (in whatever form they may have taken), but that also begs another question-- why wait this long? I assume Urthemiel's soul fragment has something to do with it, but beyond that, I don't know.

 

Maybe war against the other elven gods Fen'Harel sealed away? That would probably render Thedas unto dust, honestly. Both between the tearing of the Veil (again), and then the ensuing war.

Well, Mythal and Flemeth seem to always play the long game, so my guess is that she's lining up all the pieces in such a way that she has every possible advantage.

 

Also, she spoke of how Mythal was a weakened "wisp" of a being, so perhaps she's needed this past millennia to truly regain her strength. That said, what we saw in DAI, especially with her redirecting an eluvian to the Fade, made me think that she's finally ready.

[Hellion Rex]

If Mythal was "betrayed" then it would have to have been by someone close to her. Elgar'nan comes to mind, but as far as I know references to him outside of Dalish bs is nonexistent. It would be cool if he beat the sun's ass or created the sun (imagine if the sun were an ancient elven artifact LOL), but I highly doubt that's the truth of the matter.

Well, Abelas claimed that Fen'Harel was for sure not responsible, and of course FH would be everyone's first guess, but I don't think Abelas was lying about this.

 

Perhaps Elgar'nan is responsible...

[Br3admax]

I don't think there's a codex. But someone said there were mosaics in Mythal's Temple that depicted elves fighting creatures of Darkness. I never found the specific mosaic this user was referring to, during my own adventure in there.

Before the Well of Sorrows, there are paintings on the walls of skeletal beings riding blackened halla clashing on opposite sides of the doors. 

 

Hm. I think I see your point, but could you elaborate a bit?

 

 

I'm not so sure. In my playthrough, Abelas was more about how the elves destroyed themselves, rather than the fall of Mythal in particular led to the fall of Arlathan.

 

In other codexes (such as the admittedly flawed elven ones, which mention no internal division at all), the fall of the Gods is believed to have predated the fall of Arlathan. There seems to have been a time period between the fall of the gods and the fall of Arlathan.

 

Morrigan spouts out the usual eleven lore of the Dread Wolf murdering Mythal at the fall of Arlathan, Abelas only counters with the fact that the Dalish are wrong and that the betrayal came from within Mythal's own circle. 

 

My vague sequence of events is-

 

*snip*

The elves seem to maintain that the betrayal of the elven gods is what lead to Arlathan's destruction. It makes sense, to me anyway, that this is the time that all the events come into motion, sometime after the elves destroy themselves from within.

[Hellion Rex]

Am I an idiot for just now noticing that the mosaics of the elven gods in DAI are all actually elves?

[Br3admax]

Well I can barely even see them in game, so no. 

[MisterJB]

Am I an idiot for just now noticing that the mosaics of the elven gods in DAI are all actually elves?

Portraying your deities as being physically similar to your race is very common.

[Hellion Rex]

Well I can barely even see them in game, so no. 

I found some smaller versions that aren't nearly as grainy, and it's blatantly obvious that the gods took elven shape.