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[Hellion Rex]

Portraying your deities as being physically similar to your race is very common.

Perhaps they manifested themselves as such when dealing with their worshippers, hence the depiction.

[Br3admax]

Portraying your deities as being physically similar to your race is very common.

Except we've already met one. 

[MisterJB]

I found some smaller versions that aren't nearly as grainy, and it's blatantly obvious that the gods took elven shape.

 

They have pointed ears, yes. I'm saying that this could simply be the elven interpretation rather than their actual shape; if they had one.

Naturally, the elves would picture their gods in the shape that they were familiar with, their own.
 

edit: This wasn't mean for me, sorry.

[Hellion Rex]

Except we've already met one. 

Ah, but she possessed a human though, so that's understandable, to me. Though, as a shapeshifter, Flemeth/Mythal could probably assume elven shape if she so desired. Though at this point, I don't think she particularly cares about it.

[Colonelkillabee]

I doubt the elven gods have any more connection to elves than anyone else. They're spirits, ones that can take form of what they will, and merge with others if given willingly. The old ones were also once elven gods according to the artrariums.

[Br3admax]

Ah, but she possessed a human though, so that's understandable, to me. Though, as a shapeshifter, Flemeth/Mythal could probably assume elven shape if she so desired. Though at this point, I don't think she particularly cares about it.

I meant Solas, who is described as "kin to the gods." I think that the people of Elvhenan saw their gods as like them, in the physical. They did actually speak to them, at one point.  

[Hellion Rex]

Mythal was killed though. She only has a human form, because a fugitive sorceress named Flemeth found her in the Kocari Wilds.

Technically, no, because Abelas didn't know that she was still alive.

 

Mythal came to Flemeth as "a wisp of a being".

 

To Abelas and other older elves, it would have appeared that Mythal died, but she didn't. Although it sounds like she came very close to perishing though.

[Jazzpha]

I meant Solas, who is described as "kin to the gods." I think that the people of Elvhenan saw their gods as like them, in the physical. They did actually speak to them, at one point.  

 

Could also be a case of the old "I appear to you in the form you want to see me as/a form you can comprehend" idea. Although personally, I'm fond of the idea that "God" in this sense just means "obscenely powerful beings who could do all sorts of funky magic modern civilizations can't touch".

 

Basically The Ancients from Stargate, I suppose.

[Colonelkillabee]

Basically The Ancients from Stargate, I suppose.

I love this forum. So many Stargate fans.

[Hellion Rex]

Just listened to some Solas/Cole banter

 

Cole: They are not gone, so long as you remember them.

 

Solas: I know.

 

Cole: But you could let them go.

 

Solas: I know that as well.

 

Cole: You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them.

 

Inquisitor: Solas, what is Cole talking about?

 

Solas: A mistake...one of many made by a much younger elf that was certain he knew everything.

 

 

 

and this one:

 

 

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same. You're real and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't. They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them....(Solas does something to kick Cole out of his head).

[Ranadiel Marius]

I meant Solas, who is described as "kin to the gods." I think that the people of Elvhenan saw their gods as like them, in the physical. They did actually speak to them, at one point.

I'd also like to point out that in one of his conversations with Cole, Solas refers to what Cole is talking about (which seems to be him sealing the other gods away) as having been a mistake by a younger elf (or something like that). So Solas considers himself an elf. Question is was he considered a god before he sealed the other gods or did he only gain a seat in the pantheon as a post facto justification for how he was able to seal the others away.

Side note, I'm thinking Sola's might be the one who abandoned his name twice in the translated temple of Mythal texts.
Edit: Talk about good timing, convo I was referring to is right above.

[myahele]

There are apparently 3 named forgotten ones that still whispers to elves. Interestingly enough were 3 remaining old gods when the codex was written.

I always believed the betrayer was the unnamed and unworshipped sun diety that was Mythal pleaded mercy for from Elgarnan

[MisterJB]

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same. You're real and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't. They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them....(Solas does something to kick Cole out of his head).

"everything sang the same" = when there were only elves.

 

"You're real and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything." = If he is alive, could the others be too?

 

"masked in a mirror" = Eluvians?

 

"They sleep" = The Old Gods?

 

Eluvian + Old Gods = possible connection with the Eluvian in the Dalish Elven Origin?

[Dean_the_Young]

Dean, perhaps the Golden Spear is related to the weapon Fen'Harel used as a bargaining chip to convince the upper and lower 'Gods' to stop feuding? I'm inclined to agree with your corruption idea, but considering we've seen history of Andruil and Fen'Harel's complex relationship before (from Felassan, the story of Fen'Harel bound to a tree and forced to serve Andruil for a year), maybe Fen'Harel built the weapon for Andruil as power capital to hold as leverage over the other 'Gods', but then things went south and the Spear got corrupted?

 

I'm not familiar with that story- could you recount it?
 

[Colonelkillabee]

There are apparently 3 named forgotten ones that still whispers to elves. Interestingly enough were 3 remaining old gods when the codex was written.

I always believed the betrayer was the unnamed and unworshipped sun diety that was Mythal pleaded mercy for from Elgarnan

Interesting indeed. Just as the stars suggest, old gods were elven gods, the forgotten ones.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is an interesting assumption. And would make sense of Abelas' liberal (or what could be considered by a Dalish to be liberal) use of the word Shemlen. Everyone born after the sundering of the 'two worlds' are 'quicklings'. This also coincides with the translated codex entries.

 

It doesn't help that the question of the nature of Elven immortality is still vague- and that there appear to have been multiple forms of immortality.

 

We have immortality by possession- this is the what Flemeth does to her daughters, what the elven priest apparently does to his new one, and what Corypheus and the Old Gods do. The elven/Flemeth one seems to have raised people for the purpose of taking them over- a more voluntary version, compared to the 'transfer and takeover at death' that the Blight enables.

 

We have immortality by stasis. This is what Abelas and the u-whatever you say it, the long sleep. These elves are immortal, kind of, but spend most of it asleep.

 

Was there a third kind?

 

 

I really need that quote in which Gaider mentions that Humans are fundamentally corrupted, because I'm starting to wonder if the rise of Humans in the islands to the North were a result of Primeval Blight/corruption being carried there by ancient Deep Roads.

 

If Primeval Blight (the Blight of the Red Lyrium, which doesn't seem to form from the conventional Blights) was the 'corruption' that characterizes humans, then a good part of the human/elf question on origin would be resolved. Humans could be elves who inherited the Primeval/Red Lyrium Corruption- which, if originated in the Primeval Deep Roads during an elven conflict with the earth movers and dwellers of the primeval deep roads, could explain how humans came to be in both the mainland Thedas fighting alongside (the arcane warrior memory conflict) and in the islands to the north (where no elves have ever been known). That Original Corruption, carried along the Deep Roads of the Primeval Era, could spread across Thedas and to the islands where Humans are believed to have originated. Then, when those corrupted humans entered the Black City, the corruption inherent to them then corrupted the Golden Power of the Elven Gods, creating the Blight and Blight Corruption that we know today (but which never seems to have re-infected lyrium).

 

In other words-

 

-All of Thedas is elves, though not all elves are Arlathan Pantheon followers.

-Arlathan Pantheon decides to invade the Pillars of the Earth of the Primeval Deep Roads. The force there may be predecessors to the ancient dwarves (or darkspawn, or both).

-Massive conflict occurs. (Elves fighting against Darkness from the deep.)

-The Original Corruption occurs. Red Lyrium is created. Elves infected by Original Corruption who survive become the first humans, but the corruption makes all their descendants human. Humans none the less help in the fight against the Darkness.

-Primeval Deep Roads and Corruption Carriers make way to northern islands across the sea. Unknown elven population there, unassociated with Arlathan, turned into humans.

-Ancient Elven Doomsday weapons are made for the war. The Golden City serves as an armory for a weapon of last resort.

-The war ends, and the corruption is beaten back. Red Lyrium is contained and thought destroyed. The Darkness recedes. (Possible rise of 'modern' Dwarves?) Elven gods still exist.

-The corruption in the form of humans remain. Humans on mainland Thedas are unclear- possibly exterminated to the point of marginalization, possibly expelled and turned into barbarian tribals at the edges of the Elven city spheres of influence, possibly both. Humans in the northern islands, predecessors of Tevinter, remain unnoticed due to lack of elven presence.

-Elven racial purity more or less restored, but the empire is weakened internally. Political strife follows.

-Murder of Mythal begins Elven internal war. Possible factions include Arlathan Pantheon and the Formless Ones (assumed to be Old Gods).

-Humans carrying the corruption return from the North. Elven society is unable/unwilling to exterminate.

-Solas raises Veil to end civil war, to save friends on both sides. Arlathan Pantheon faction dominant, but loses their gods.

-Old Gods (possible defeated Formless Ones) make contact with dreamers, make alliance to raise first Archons and start of Tevinter.

-Arlathan, weakened, enters another crisis (or continues crisis from before).

-Old Gods push Tevinter into attacking during period of elven weakness and in-fighting.

-Arlathan, torn apart by internal conflict, falls to external invasion. Arlathan elves enslaved by humans carrying the corruption.

-Tevinter consolidates.

-Old Gods share knowledge of the ancient elven armory of the weapon of the god, the Golden City. Old God worshippers agree to seek it.

-Magisters, humans descended from corrupted elves and still carrying the Original Corruption, breach the city. The Original Corruption affects the Golden Spear, creating the Blight and turning the Golden City Black.

-The Magisters return to Thedas as the First Darkspawn. From the Primeval Deep Roads, they corrupt the first waves of Darkspawn.

-The Original Corruption continues to exist in the form of Red Lyrium, while the Blight (a corrupted elven super weapon) is unable to infect Lyrium (at least not easily).

[Br3admax]

Side note, I'm thinking Sola's might be the one who abandoned his name twice in the translated temple of Mythal texts.
Edit: Talk about good timing, convo I was referring to is right above.

I believe that one is actually Abelas himself, "Sorrow."

[Willowhugger]

I wouldn't be surprised if the elves are the result of spirit/human hybrids like Wynne breeding with each other.

Which is why Solas thinks of spirits better than people.

[jellobell]

I'd also like to point out that in one of his conversations with Cole, Solas refers to what Cole is talking about (which seems to be him sealing the other gods away) as having been a mistake by a younger elf (or something like that). So Solas considers himself an elf. Question is was he considered a god before he sealed the other gods or did he only gain a seat in the pantheon as a post facto justification for how he was able to seal the others away.

Side note, I'm thinking Sola's might be the one who abandoned his name twice in the translated temple of Mythal texts.
Edit: Talk about good timing, convo I was referring to is right above.

I thought that was Abelas (since Abelas translates directly to "sorrow").

 

Also, Solas doesn't seem to think of the Creators as gods.

 

Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?

Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist

Caasndra: That is not what I meant

Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same

Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.

Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.

 

Plus, we know that Ghilan'nain was somehow raised up from being a regular(???) elf to being a "god". So perhaps the elven gods got their power from some sort of artifact, like the well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dumat's tie to demons and blood could very well be Chantry propaganda. Blood magic supposedly came from the Forbidden Ones (Gaxkang, Xebenkeck, Imshael, and Formless One). 

 

Wasn't there a claim made by the Dalish at one point that Humans/Tevinter learned magic from the Elves?

 

It was a weak claim (a bit self-serving, in a 'they only beat us because we taught them how' way), but it's worthy considering.

[Colonelkillabee]

Wasn't there a claim made by the Dalish at one point that Humans/Tevinter learned magic from the Elves?

If the old gods really were elven gods as suggested, then that claim in a way would be true.

[Hellion Rex]

Wasn't there a claim made by the Dalish at one point that Humans/Tevinter learned magic from the Elves?

 

It was a weak claim (a bit self-serving, in a 'they only beat us because we taught them how' way), but it's worthy considering.

Looked it up, and it says that the Imperial Chantry was the one to claim that they learned it from elves. Now, the source referenced for that claim is the Dragon Age: Origins: Collector's Edition: Prima Official Game Guide, so YMMV.

[Jazzpha]

I'm not familiar with that story- could you recount it?
 

 

Did some more due diligence research, and I was a bit mistaken in my recollection of the story (this is what I get for postulating on the tail-end of an all-nighter during finals). Apparently, Fen'Harel hunted Halla without Andruil's permission, so she tied him to a tree and declared he'd have to "serve her in bed" for a year and a day to pay her back (Odysseus style). Then the "Dark God" Anaris found them, and Anaris "swore he would kill Fen'Harel for crimes against the Forgotten Ones." So Andruil and Anaris dueled, Fen'Harel played both sides against the middle, chewed through his ropes and escaped.

 

I was conflating that with Merril's story that Fen'Harel promised a "blade that would end the [god] war" as a means for tricking the gods into separating.

 

What's interesting to note about the Tree story, though, is that it gets told by Felassan to Briala... and Felassan, as we know, is no ordinary Elf. He remembers the old Empire too, to boot.