29 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

NOW WITH VIDEO

 

sorry about the low res and the slowdown, I haven't upgraded my video card in years so I run the game at only like 40 fps even without anything running, fraps hogged up what little wiggle room I had hence half to record at half resolution and still getting a fair bit of slow down, either way it isn't pretty but it serves the purpose.

 

Los and tac cam testing

 

 

my tactics settings in action

 

 

 

There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there about how the hold command works and how the follow behavior works as well. I've been testing this for a while tonight and have come to some conclusions.

1. The hold command is NOT overridden by AI behaviors like follow/defend.
2. Hold commands issued in tac cam are NOT overridden by switching back to action cam.
3. Hold commands are NOT overridden by line of sight

I tested all of these things by double click moving (which makes them hold once they get to where you moved them) Sera and Dorian behind a wall where I knew they would lose line of sight in tactical cam while having both of their behaviors set to follow the PC and then switching to action cam and engaging a group of enemies. Both of them stayed where I had placed them. I further tested it by engaging the entire group to begin the fight, then double click moving them both out of los in the middle of combat and again they stayed where they were. They even tried attacking without los as I was able to see Dorian cast a few lightning cages and Sera consume a few flasks off in the corner where they couldn't actually fight.

4. The hold command will be overridden if ANY other COMMAND is issued.

And I do mean ANY other command. Attack my target? Kiss your hold goodbye. Manually cast lightning cage on your ranged buddy? Kiss your hold goodbye. Hold will only really work if you've properly set up your tactics so that you don't have to micro-manage that lightning cage to begin with.

Conclusion, if you want to make use of the hold command in order to not have to micro-manage, then you need to STOP MICRO-MANAGING and it will actually work. And the beauty is with the right follow instructions and tactics you shouldn't need to micromanage them any way.


Lastly an example of a simple fight and the tactics used.

Dorian -- follow tank -- preferred -- static cage, horror enabled -- walking bomb, barrier
Sera -- follow tank -- preferred -- flask of lightning stealth enabled -- every other ranged ability
Tank -- follow tank -- preferred warcry enabled -- payback strike, shield bash, shield wall disabled -- challenge better to save challenge for stragglers that go after your ranged folk
PC -- ai disabled


A simple set up for lone wolf characters like rogues. Send in the tank, war cry, and set him to attack a target. Once that is done, your tank doesn't require any further micro-management since they will retaunt with war cry and by setting him to follow himself he will continue attacking whoever you sicced him on until they're dead and will then move on to the next target in range. Your ranged folks will focus down whoever the tank is beating on since they're set to follow tank allowing you to go from mage to archer to mage obliterating them in real time while your team sits back blissfully free of micromanagement.

With the abilites I've set to preferred the ai is usually smart enough to have Dorian cast a static cage early in the fight trapping everyone the tank taunted, and Sera and the tank are smart enough to use their available detonators on anyone paralyzed/panicked if I'm not doing it myself on my rogue.

Oh and for when worst comes to worst and something like a dragon jacks up your hold by pulling people in, going in tactical and double click your people out of harms danger and they'll go right back to being on hold.

I'm sure plenty of people have figured this all out on their own but with as often as I see people complaining and posting misinformation about it well there it is.



p.s. Defend -- Self behaviors aren't compatible with hold. When set to defend characters won't attack unless they're being targeted or you tell them to attack, if you tell them to attack it clears out the hold and if they're defending themselves your tank is doing his job so it's a lose/lose.

 

addendum

 

1. Hold commands WILL undo themselves after combat, but pre-combat holds should not undo themselves by going into combat.

 

This only seems to really be an issue during dragon fights as they can fly far enough away during battle that your team will be considered out of combat. Standard fights against mobs don't have this issue.

 

2. Hold commands ARE subject to path finding teleports if you stray too far from your group. I can see how people can find this irritating, but I also definitely see why it's in the game and prefer a teleporting party to AI getting stuck on things or whatever. I don't see this as all that big an issue cause you really do have to be pretty far from your group for this to be an issue and all you really need hold commands for is to stop your party from running into melee range or getting to close to the tank and falling victim to aoe. You don't need to be a city block from your tank to avoid either of these things.

[Swin]

The problem is, when you micro manage and use the tactical camera a lot it's annoying to not be able to hold your characters AND issue commands. Having my ranged follow the tank is not going to cut it in my party. My ranged are often told to disable archers, cast spells here, finish that critter with low health off while I start attacking another, manually cast barrier since I only use it manually when the wrong person gets aggro.

 

I just hate having to reposition them all the time. Issuing an attack command followed by a hold can work, until they lose line of sight because of a pebble, but it's tedious!

[sinosleep]

That's the thing though, LOS doesn't affect hold commands, only PC initiated attack commands. The AI will go through all it's attacks without overriding hold and without being affected by LOS as long as you aren't the one manually issuing the attacks. In your situation, yes, the hold command is borderline useless because as soon as you micromanage your attacks the hold is going to undo itself. But since I've seen so many people complaining about it because they don't want to micro-manage then I thought I would point it that the less micro-managing you do the more effective the hold command actually is.

[mutantspicy]

I agree with the OP.  I've experimented a lot with the tactics, and behaviors.  I tend to have my characters follow themselves.  By doing so I usually don't need to issue hold commands, my archers and mages will keep there distance.  The trick is in Tactics, turning off a lot of the skills, and only picking a few favorites, and a couple of active but not preferred. and ones that will not cause them to run into melee. The more things you turn on the more erratic the AI becomes.  Keep it simple. Obviously tactics are different for tanks, where you would favorite War Cry or something.   

 

I would request one further behavior that I think we are missing/needed.  We should be able to set preferred target type.  I think that would make a lot of people happy including me.

[Swin]

I agree, line of sight doesn't override hold commands. What I meant was, it's very annoying when they just stop attacking, or attack something else that they can attack, when there's nothing but a stupid pebble in the way. 

[sinosleep]

I agree, line of sight doesn't override hold commands. What I meant was, it's very annoying when they just stop attacking, or attack something else that they can attack, when there's nothing but a stupid pebble in the way. 

Oh, ok lol. Sorry, seen many people complain that los was the reason that their hold command was broken and was why their archers were running into melee range. Didn't think you meant they stopped attacking.

[kstarler]

I never thought to disable AI on my PC. It's funny how things that should be quite obvious sometimes escape us. Thanks for the tip!

[sinosleep]

I agree with the OP.  I've experimented a lot with the tactics, and behaviors.  I tend to have my characters follow themselves.  By doing so I usually don't need to issue hold commands, my archers and mages will keep there distance.  The trick is in Tactics, turning off a lot of the skills, and only picking a few favorites, and a couple of active but not preferred. and ones that will not cause them to run into melee. The more things you turn on the more erratic the AI becomes.  Keep it simple. Obviously tactics are different for tanks, where you would favorite War Cry or something.   

 

I would request one further behavior that I think we are missing/needed.  We should be able to set preferred target type.  I think that would make a lot of people happy including me.

 

I suppose you've got to pick your poison. If you set them to follow themselves they do better when they get attacked by guys your tank doesn't have aggro on cause they'll switch targets, but they won't burn down targets together unless you tell them to attack from target to target since otherwise they're just picking their own as los allows. And occasionally they'll still get themselves into a melee situation any way.

 

That's why I prefer to use hold commands in combination with follow tank. That way they burn down targets together without my having to micromanage their attacks and all I really have to be on the look out for is any stragglers which I either handle with challenge since I only allow the ai to use warcry I always have one handy or I'll pick them off with my PC.

[mutantspicy]

It probably depends on what you play.  Right now, I play DW rogue, so I like to flank certain targets with my Tank.  and prefer to do my own killing.    also training myself for a FF playthrough.

 

Though I see what you're doing and it makes sense. 

[Molohk]

There is some kind of override based on combat status, though. Here's an example:

1. I was at the cave entrance to the frostback area in Hinterlands (I was waiting for the dragon to make it's rounds, so I could run into the area safely).
2. While controlling Blackwell, I told my followers to hold position around the corner, out of reach of the dragon's fireballs, while blackwell was ahead and shield walling fireballs.
3. They'd stay there for a bit, but a few seconds after the fireballs, all followers would stop holding position and catch up with blackwell, only 2 or 3 yards ahead, around the corner.

I think it might be due to the fact that you enter combat briefly while the dragon flies by, and then exit combat when he's very far away.

 

Another example, but harder to test/replicate/explain, was during the Frostback fight, when the dragon lands on top of a platform, I ordered my followers to move and hold position bellow that platform (in tac cam, I was controlling Blackwall). All my followers obeyed except for my mage, who would move a few yards, then stop half-way and attack the dragon on top of the platform. The only difference I can think of, is the fact that my mage was set to follow self, while the others were set to follow my mage (Blackwall was set to defend himself).

 

Generally, I agree that hold works fine. But in these specific circumstances I've noticed strange behavior.

[mfmaxpower]

Wait, why disable the PC AI?

[sinosleep]

Wait, why disable the PC AI?

That's optional I suppose, I just like doing it cause I control the PC 99% Of the time and only really switch to the others when absolutely necessary to either reposition characters that have been pulled out of position or to catch any stragglers with a challenge from my tank . At any other time I'm manually controlling the PC so leaving the AI on for them is a waste.

With the AI behavior the way I have it set up other than the initial taunt with the tank I don't really need to micromanage much anything. The tank will attack los, the ranged attack whatever the tank does for focus fire and go off and do my own thing.

[sinosleep]

There is some kind of override based on combat status, though. Here's an example:

• I was at the cave entrance to the frostback area in Hinterlands (I was waiting for the dragon to make it's rounds, so I could run into the area safely).
• While controlling Blackwell, I told my followers to hold position around the corner, out of reach of the dragon's fireballs, while blackwell was ahead and shield walling fireballs.
• They'd stay there for a bit, but a few seconds after the fireballs, all followers would stop holding position and catch up with blackwell, only 2 or 3 yards ahead, around the corner.

I think it might be due to the fact that you enter combat briefly while the dragon flies by, and then exit combat when he's very far away.
 
Another example, but harder to test/replicate/explain, was during the Frostback fight, when the dragon lands on top of a platform, I ordered my followers to move and hold position bellow that platform (in tac cam, I was controlling Blackwall). All my followers obeyed except for my mage, who would move a few yards, then stop half-way and attack the dragon on top of the platform. The only difference I can think of, is the fact that my mage was set to follow self, while the others were set to follow my mage (Blackwall was set to defend himself).
 
Generally, I agree that hold works fine. But in these specific circumstances I've noticed strange behavior.

Losing holds when going out of combat is definitely a thing I guess I just didn't mention it because most of the time it's a non-issue since you generally don't fall out of combat until the fight is actually over. I suppose I did not take that aspect of dragon fights into consideration I should probably include something about that in the original post.

[mfmaxpower]

That's optional I suppose, I just like doing it cause I control the PC 99% Of the time and only really switch to the others when absolutely necessary to either reposition characters that have been pulled out of position or to catch any stragglers with a challenge from my tank . At any other time I'm manually controlling the PC so leaving the AI on for them is a waste.

 Wouldn't it be better though to just disable all skills except for defensive skills, so they're not sitting ducks? 

[sinosleep]

Wouldn't it be better though to just disable all skills except for defensive skills, so they're not sitting ducks?

If I left my pc to their own devices for any significant length of time sure but I don't. Nothing is going to happen to the PC in the length of time it takes me have the tank throw out a challenge at a straggler.

Plus even if you only have defensive skills enabled it doesn't stop AI controlled characters from auto attacking and on a melee rogue that you've left on stealth that's a problem. They will auto attack the closest thing in sight and waste your stealth so I just leave my pc disabled.

[kstarler]

Wait, why disable the PC AI?

 

Using my rogue as an example, if I switch to my tank to taunt a target, or my mage to dispel/barrier/etc without entering Tac Cam, then I have to wait for the animation to start before the action sticks. When I switch back to my rogue, I often find that the AI has blown stealth/Mark of Death/Hidden Blades for no good reason. Turning off AI will fix that issue.

[mutantspicy]

Using my rogue as an example, if I switch to my tank to taunt a target, or my mage to dispel/barrier/etc without entering Tac Cam, then I have to wait for the animation to start before the action sticks. When I switch back to my rogue, I often find that the AI has blown stealth/Mark of Death/Hidden Blades for no good reason. Turning off AI will fix that issue.

I have my rogue's(controlled character) AI set to Stealth and Evade Preferred, everything else on disable.

in behaviors I set to defend (controlled character).  If I do switch to say cast a revive spell or something, by the time I get back she is usually just standing there in stealth.

[sinosleep]

I have my rogue's(controlled character) AI set to Stealth and Evade Preferred, everything else on disable.
in behaviors I set to defend (controlled character).  If I do switch to say cast a revive spell or something, by the time I get back she is usually just standing there in stealth.

That will not stop them from auto attacking and blowing stealth if an enemy is nearby though. I don't like to risk it.

[mutantspicy]

True this happens from time to time.  A work around though is to evade or go stealth out of melee dropping aggro before switching characters.  Generally I don't switch for very long at all so I get your point, but some times you switch out to find out you have to wait for stamina to build to cast whatever.  I don't like leaving my guy to just stand there downing heal potions to live.  Alas, I think the main point here is that as simple as it seems the tactics behavior model in this game is a lot more powerful than what a lot people giving it credit for.

[Firky]

So. The OP is a bit over my head.

 

I'm playing on nightmare. (Still only level 6 - but have played the other DA games on nightmare.)

 

I have all behaviours turned off.

 

People move ALL the time. For example. I just wanted to shoot someone from afar with full draw while my other party members waited behind a wall for the encounter to come to them and they kept teleporting to Varric's little sniper position.

 

Why is this happening? He's to far away from them? Or - "Hold command will be overriden if any command is issued?" I don't understand.

 

(PS. I mostly play in tac cam, but I sometimes roll forward into over the shoulder because it's easier than mucking around with the camera. I have noticed this seems to pop everyone out of what they are doing.)

 

I suppose I may as well give more info.

 

- I use the double click to move in tac cam to hold position. I'm trying not to move them too far away from each other. (Because I have noticed that if you grab one player and run away from battle, everyone else will die and then teleport to life when your character gets far enough away. - I'm not proud of myself - )

[sinosleep]

If they are teleporting to you, you're too far from them. Also, the simple act of popping in and out of tac cam shouldn't be having any effect whatsoever on hold commands. I've tested that extensively on PC. You should be able to issue a hold in or out of tac cam, then go back into our out of tac cam and still see the hold icon next to your team.

 

Hold commands WILL be undone if you go out of combat however.

[StopCallingMeHarold]

Harald to team: "Sit. Stay."
Walk, walk, turn to see everyone moving
Harald: "I said stay!"
Team: "I wasn't moving were you moving"
"Nope. I wasn't moving. I don't think we were moving boss"
Harald: "I'm pretty sure I saw you moving"
Walk, walk, turn to see them moving again all whistling and staring at their feet.
Harald: "Just do whatever you like. I'm done with all of you"
"Really, Harald, we were definitely not moving."

[Firky]

If they are teleporting to you, you're too far from them. Also, the simple act of popping in and out of tac cam shouldn't be having any effect whatsoever on hold commands. I've tested that extensively on PC. You should be able to issue a hold in or out of tac cam, then go back into our out of tac cam and still see the hold icon next to your team.
 
Hold commands WILL be undone if you go out of combat however.

Sometimes they teleport and sometimes they just start moving.

I wonder if what I'm seeing when I go out of tac cam is because I sometimes just roll forward to move people and I'm making too much distance. Having large distances between characters is how I play, but perhaps my playstyle is not meant to be.

One of the other things I use over the shoulder view for is revival, because I can't figure out how to make it fire in tac cam view. When I go back to tac cam, though, everyone has forgotten what they were doing. (Sometimes, sometimes not.)

Thanks for reply. I'm still getting used to it. I do have some odd bugs, too. There was one where my party kept trying to climb invisible ladders to shoot elevated enemies. (But only in one area which had lots of ladders.) and Charging Bull which occasionally lasts for a really long time.

[Siven80]

So, is this right? (The lack of ingame descriptions is terrible).

 

Defend - Self acts like Passive behavior in previous DA games? Doesnt attack without command, but fights back if attacked in melee? 

 

Follow - Self acts like Aggressive/Ranged (weapon dependant) behavior from previous DA games? Attack visible enemies, chases, fights back?

[sinosleep]

So, is this right? (The lack of ingame descriptions is terrible).

 

Defend - Self acts like Passive behavior in previous DA games? Doesnt attack without command, but fights back if attacked in melee? 

 

Follow - Self acts like Aggressive/Ranged (weapon dependant) behavior from previous DA games? Attack visible enemies, chases, fights back?

Yup.