421 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

Notice ho w much more heavilly they were used in Leviathan than Liara? 

 

Of course. They're the only 3 you can't kill till the end of the game. You can rely on them. That's not a real issue, especially for DLC where the budget is more limited. And double especially for James, who seriously needs the content to make up for appearing in the last game, without a loyalty mission. James even is used as a replacement for Wrex saving you for the Citadel DLC if Wrex is dead.

[Valmar]

yeah it definitely seems that way her "friendship" scenes feel more like romance scenes to me especially in ME3

 

 

I didn't feel that way. Maybe you should try playing a bit more renegade. I suspect if I applied your line of reasoning to the other characters I could say Tali's friendship and Steve's friendship played more like romance. Hell, even the VS that you take to dinner. I mean, you physically comfort both Tali and Steve if you're a paragon. ~ Can you feel the love tonight ~

 

 

 

But Liara is still the post popular LI of the trilogy by far so I guess some liked her in ME3

 

Again you make these wild allegations without any evidence to back it up. Based off of what? A lot of the polls I've seen actually suggest the 'general public' (not just those active fanbases who wave banners around forums) actually favor the Miranda romance considerably. Probably because of her appearance, if I had to make a guess. [1]

 

I strongly disagree with your agenda that Liara is "by far the most popular". Strongly. For someone who supposedly hates Liara you sure do give her a LOT of credit. You sound more like a Liaramancer than those you accuse of it. All I hear from you is how wonderful she is and how shes the favorite and most popular and how she has, apparently, just sooo much romance content. Hell, if I didn't know it was all hyperbole I'd be tempted to switch my romance out with her just to get this plethora of romance.

 

 

even if you felt that the romance with Liara wasn't satisfying in ME3 still doesn't change the fact that she got the most screentime and importance in the main story by far

thats why she remains the writer's pet

don't like Liara? screw you you gets shoved in your face anyway

 

Her importance in the story has absolutely nothing to do with her being a favorite or a romance. She is the series' prothean expert. Her significance to the story is not "hey, shes blue and has ******! ka-ching!". Of course Liara, the prothean expert, is important to a story that has you uncovering a prothean device. Shock and awe! Who would have ever guess the series prothean expert would be involved in a prothean research project. Mystery of the ages, that one.

 

You're right though, since you didn't like Liara they should had came up with an entirely different plot that didn't involve protheans at all so we wouldn't need the prothean expert. Yeah, THATS whats wrong with the crucible plot: Liara. /end thread

 

 

she is the freaking shadow broker (the most powerful information broker in the galaxy) AND finds the plans for the Crucible (with which they defeat the reapers) compared to that the other squadmates get shafted

Her importance in the story does not translate to romance content, which is the bases of your argument. Her being Shadowbroker, btw, actually is very much downplayed in ME3. To the point that you don't even need to do the DLC in ME2 and it really changes nothing. So she's the shadowbroker. Big deal. Tell me where that was really important in the story. They did as much with the shadowbroker arc as they did with Miranda's Cerberus ties. Wasted potential all around.

 

As for the crucible again we have a case where the trilogy's biggest prothean expert researcher is involved in the studying of prothean archives. Like, ohmigod! Favoritism! Why is Legion the one we talk to with the geth? Favoritism! Why does Mordin cure the genophage? Favoritism! Why is Wrex leading the krogan? Favoritism! Why is Shepard leading the charge against the reapers? Favoritism! Let's just overlook the fact that the story explicitly wrote these characters to fit the very specific roles that they currently fill. It all boils down to favoritism because they should all be replaced with [insert personal favorite character here] because they're clearly the best. It's only favoritism if its a character I don't like, after all. Favor the right character, Bioware!

 

 

Miranda instead of having an important role in the Ceberus arc of the game saves her sister again..(rehash of her loyalty mission just great) thats just lame

Jack gets two scenes at best and lets not speak of Thane (poor Thanemancers)

 

She can have an important role in the Cerberus arc. I agree with the sentiment that she was very under utilized and deserved more than she got but lets not pretend she has no importance. She can be the one who gets you the lead to the Illusive Man's hideout. If not for her we might never had been able to take down Cerberus. Don't bring metagaming into this.

 

Careful though, admitting how miniscule the romances for Jack and Thane were might distract from your "woe is Miranda" agenda. At least Miranda, if she's alive (which she probably is considering how hard it is to kill her), is mandatory in the storyline. Thane and Jack are completely optional, as if they completely forgot about them until the last moment.

 

 

I also never point blame to any other LI's because they can all die don't like Garrus? kill him off in ME2

don't like Liara? screw you you gets shoved in your face anyway

 

You don't point blame at others LI yet your entire little tirade has been venomously exaggerating and blaming everything on Liara "favoritism". I think we're done here.

 

 

Liara on the other hand is completely mandatory in both ME1 and 3, and starting from ME2, Shepard is forced to like this mandatory character no matter what.

 

And a lot of her content in ME3 isn't really optional. She's forced on you for three missions including Eden Prime, and the "write your name in the star scenes" is completely unavoidable if you linger on her email for a second too long and then want to call other people up to your cabin.

 

I didn't get that impression, personally. Though I was pretty heavily renegade towards her through the entire trilogy and ignore her in other playthroughs.

 

You don't have to do the Eden Prime mission. Though even still at least in this context makes sense for her to be there. Lets not forget that Liara is THE prothean expert. Of course you should take her down to investigate a prothean digsite. I would had preferred if they somehow worked out a "four squad" system so she could tag along with two others, though. I hate having squad choice decided for me. Though this complaint goes all the way back to ME2's loyalty missions.

 

Somewhat unrelated but I'm reminded of Tali's introduction in ME1. She's still present at the scene, doing her thing, while Shepard and squad come in guns blazing. Didn't have control of her and she wasn't in your party but she was present in the scene. I would had liked if a similar approach was taken with the loyalty missions and the missions in ME3 that force your hand on party decisions.

 

Also, in a similar vein, is it really fair to say she is forced in a mission where shes really your only option? It's like complaining Miranda or Jacob are forced on you until your recruit someone else.
 

[themikefest]

You don't have to do the Eden Prime mission. Though even still at least in this context makes sense for her to be there.

Did she really need to be on that mission? What was it that required her presence? The only thing is she mentions to not open the pod otherwise it might kill the Prothean. Couldn't the edibot tell Shepard that from the Normandy like it told Shepard about the terminator on the collector base and how to destroy it?

Lets not forget that Liara is THE prothean expert.

Let's not forget that during Thessia, the player learns that she's not the expert we're led to believe. She needs to do some more studying.
 

[von uber]

You're obsessed with her. Just give in and do a trilogy romance, it'll make you feel better.

[Valmar]

Did she really need to be on that mission? What was it that required her presence? The only thing is she mentions to not open the pod otherwise it might kill the Prothean. Couldn't the edibot tell Shepard that from the Normandy like it told Shepard about the terminator on the collector base and how to destroy it?

 

Certainly not. Though this is metagaming, a practice I'm not particularly fond of. The point was that having her be part of the mission to explore a prothean digsite makes narrative sense. She is the prothean expert so of course her presence makes sense. The fact that the actual game did a horrible job of utilizing that knowledge is another matter. This is an execution failure rather than a narrative one. It makes sense for her to be there, they just didn't do anything with it that made it feel justified.

 

One would assume having the prothean expert with you when exploring a critical prothean digsite with possibly game-changing information would be the wisest move and lead to good things happening. In the end, it was made irrelevant since nothing she did was really special or necessary. That doesn't mean having her there doesn't make sense, it just means they did ****-all with it. Bioware are rather good at wasting character potential (even so-called "favorites") though, so not a big surprise there is it.

 

 

 

Let's not forget that during Thessia, the player learns that she's not the expert we're led to believe. She needs to do some more studying.
 

 

Certainly. Infact I've taken some heat on the forum before for mentioning how incompetent I think Liara is, overall. That doesn't really change the fact that within the lore she is the prothean expert. She's dedicated her life to studying the protheans. We can't think too harshly on her not knowing things that are so very classified by the Asari government. At least not from a researcher-level. It does bring more scrutiny to her effectiveness of a shadow broker, though.

 

Honestly I still feel like making her the shadow broker was a mistake. They should had stuck with her just being a prothean researcher and not tag on the extra baggage. Miranda would had suited the role better, imo.

 

 

Why do you keep denying the obvious facts (that she was forced on the player in ME3)?
You keep comparing her with Mordin and Legion and its just beyond silly its like you don't even read my posts (or from the others here who have also made some good points)

 

I deny nothing. It is a lore fact that Liara is a prothean expert. It is a lore fact that it makes sense for her to be part of a prothean research project. It is a lore fact that some of your complaints were about completely OPTIONAL content that you can avoid altogether. I never denied that there are interactions forced on you (the waking up after nightmare scenes), I only argue that she isn't forced in the story. You're the one who keeps acting like the story favors her and makes her important for no reason.

 

It /is/ comparable to Mordin and Legion within the context of my argument. You're simply wrong for thinking otherwise - I have lore facts on my side. She is the prothean expert. It flows with reason that she is involved or important with subjects regarding prothean research. It is the role her character was designed from the beginning of the series to fulfill. Just as Mordin was destined to be the one who brings closure to the genophage and Legion is the one destined to be involved in brokering peace with the geth. None of that story significance was forced. 

 

 

you seem to forget (conveniently) that they can die (Mordin and Legion in ME2 and Wrex in ME1) so no in one of my playthroughs Mordin didn't cure the genophage Padok Wiks did, I talked to the Geth VI and Wreav was the leader of the krogans, Liara is always the prothean expert that is forced on me in ME3

I forget nothing. At risk of sounding boastful, I know quite a bit of the Mass Effect lore. It's a bit of a passion of mine. So no, I didn't forget they could die. Your argument is on a metagame level and is absolutely irrelevant. Just because the characters can be replaced if they're dead does not suddenly and magically mean they have no importance of significance to the story. That is an outrageous allegation.

 

Mordin cures the genophage if he is alive. That /is/ significant to the plot. That is important. You talk as though the only way for someone to be important is if they have to be there no matter what you do. In which case, not even Shepard is important. Shepard can die in ME2. Majority of the DLC isn't important either since Shepard is replaced with npcs that did the mission for him. In my story Mordin and Legion played crucial roles to the story. That doesn't magically change just because certain playthroughs replace them. They're still significant.

 

This is the same kind of mindset certain forum goers have when they argue against there being a 'happier' ending for Mass Effect because they think it will take away from theirs. Just because a character is dead and has no importance in YOUR playthrough does not mean they're made irrelevant in mine. In your playthrough the Mordin-standin played and important part. Good for him. Good for you. In my playthrough Mordin plays the important part. That role is not diminished just because some players have a different version than me. Do not underplay these character's importance to the story just because you don't necessarily have the same outcome. 

 

Coincidentally when you consider how Miranda is practically impossible to kill in ME2 you could even argue that, for the majority of players, she is mandatory to the plot. Something that sounds like what you'd consider "important".

 

 

And so what if Liara is a Prothean expert? She didn't do much with it her knowledge in ME3 (be it Eden prime or Thessia) she somehow found the plans before the game starts (I think its explained in the comics) and thats it

But nope Liara can't die (unless you want to fail the game) she is forced on the player until the very end and thats why she was definitely favoured by the writers

 

So what? So it means it makes sense that the prothean expert is involved in prothean research projects. Are you serious? She didn't do much with her knowledge, no. Like I mentioned earlier, I think shes pretty incompetent. Though the same can be said about many characters that Bioware failed to use to their full potential.

 

Also you need to keep me in context. I never argued she should be in involved with the thessia mission. Frankly I wouldn't take her down there due to her emotional problems.

 

Finally, no matter how many times you ritualistically chant it she wasn't favored by the writers. Which can be proven with actual factual evidence. Pointing at ME2 as a whole, for example. Your precious Miranda Lawson received more screentime and story significance in ME3 than Liara did in ME2. Miranda was also on the cover art of the game. There is no favoritism. Theres just you being upset that you didn't get more out of your preferred LI. Again, join the freakin' club.

 

 

And wow Miranda (ca. 20 minutes in the last game of the trilogy) has more screentime than Jack and Thane (not even that) as opposed to Liara who has how much screentime again? And also don't forget she is the only character you can romance in all three games

 

I never said Miranda received a lot of screentime. The majority of the LI in the game get very little screentime in general. I was just pointing out that relative to most of them Miranda received a fair bit of favoritism. Lol, snap.

 

I'm not sure how much mandatory screentime Liara gets outside of the main mission line but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't as drastic as you make it out to be. I could probably watch a youtube video of all the scenes and count the time but I rather not. I'm not as obsessed with Liara as you seem to be.

 

As for romancing in all three games... lol. Maybe with the DLC installed and in a lesser capacity. You're really underestimating how forgotten and shafted Liara was in ME2. In the same vein you can romance Kaidan/Ashley in all three games, if you consider just five minutes of screentime and a picture in your cabin to be significant romance. Which, without the DLC, is essentially all Liara is reduced to as well.

 

Tali,Garrus and Thane, imo, are the only "consistent" romances. I struggle to give credit to Thane too, given how woefully forgotten the character was. 

 

And Liara even "wins" against the other LI's, Tali is locked until Rannoch and the VS is hospitalised but Liara is there since the beginning
 

 

Again you should probably play a trilogy with Liara as your LI. Maybe then you'd realize a few things. Just because Liara is in a scene doesn't mean you're romancing all up on her getting sloppy. You'd be surprised at how many of the romance scenes play out essentially the same as normal - this applies for all LI. Just because she in the game earlier doesn't translate to her having priority. That being said, I certainly do wish I could unlock Tali sooner - if only to have her in my squad from a earlier point. It's like ME2 all over again, lol.

 

Coincidentally, if you youtube "ME3 Liara all romance scenes" and "ME3 Tali all romance scenes" you'd notice that they're both a little over 15 minutes. That looks like a pretty fair and equal distribution of content, imo. Liara probably only stands out more to you because she's a squadmate sooner.

 

If you can't see by now that Liara was clearly (they didn't even try to hide it) favoured above all the other characters then you are just in denial (I wonder why though, you aren't a Liaramancer so what is this?)

 

I only see the lore and facts. Many of your claims and exaggerated assertions are proven false by the reality that is the lore. Everything I say (in relation to this Liara subject, anyway) is backed by the lore facts. It's truth, not speculation or opinion on my part. Much of what you say is contradicted by said facts.

 

I do not need to be Liaramancer to accept lore facts. I view the facts for what they are and accept them. I make strives to keep my personal bias out of the equation. The fact that you think you need to have a vested personal interest in a certain character to acknowledge facts is actually very telling.

[ashlover mark 2]

They were shafted because...

 

1.) They were cannon fodder in Mass Effect 2. A developer outright said after ME2's release that the reason Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara were sidelined during the suicide mission was so we couldn't get them killed because Bioware had plans for them in Mass Effect 3. Garrus and Tali were overwhelming fan favorites since the beginning, so they knew they weren't wasting rescources if they brought them back for ME3. The ME2 crew was supposed to make you feel attached -- so that when the game goes 'Saveing Private Ryan' on them you'll feel the weight of their deaths.

 

2.) Rescources. Whether it was time, money, or available manpower; there were just to many characters to go all out for. Especially if those characters were dead in alot of peoples games. Ashley was a squadmember and they barely manged to give her any story after the coup. 

 

Mass Effect 3 had alot of potential -- Bioware just didn't utilize it.

[Han Shot First]

 

Let's not forget that during Thessia, the player learns that she's not the expert we're led to believe. She needs to do some more studying.
 

 

Liara gets some details wrong on the Protheans, but that doesn't mean she isn't an expert on them. The Protheans were dead for 50,000 years, so the only thing the experts could know about them is what they could dig up out of the ground. Obviously that's going to leave some gaps in what is known.

 

That mirrors the real world as well. Historians and archaeologists still aren't entirely sure how the pyramids were built. There are competing theories. I'm sure if we could bring one of those ancient Egyptian stone masons back from the dead, he might also declare some of the modern theories incorrect.

 

There is no indication that Liara was less knowledgeable than her peers. When she is wrong about the Protheans, it is likely the entirety of the scientific and academic consensus of her era that is wrong. Of course Javik, as an actual Prothean, knows more about some details of his civilization than Liara does. All she had to go on was 50,000 year old ruins, while he lived in that civilization. Also it's not unusual for scientists to be wrong occasionally. It's part of the process of discovery. Even some of the most brilliant scientific minds in human history, like Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein, were occasionally wrong.

 

There is one instance in the series (Eden Prime IIRC) where EDI tries to correct Liara about the era the ruins of Prothean civilzation belong to, and the hyperadvanced A.I. gets schooled when Liara points out details on the ruins that make EDI's identification incorrect. EDI then concedes and states she was in error. So Liara is certainly no slouch.

[Iakus]

They were shafted because...

 

1.) They were cannon fodder in Mass Effect 2. A developer outright said after ME2's release that the reason Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara were sidelined during the suicide mission was so we couldn't get them killed because Bioware had plans for them in Mass Effect 3. Garrus and Tali were overwhelming fan favorites since the beginning, so they knew they weren't wasting rescources if they brought them back for ME3. The ME2 crew was supposed to make you feel attached -- so that when the game goes 'Saveing Private Ryan' on them you'll feel the weight of their deaths.

 

 WHile it is true they made that claim, it turns out it was only a claim. There was never a plan.

[themikefest]

There is no indication that Liara was less knowledgeable than her peers. When she is wrong about the Protheans, it is likely the entirety of the scientific and academic consensus of her era that is wrong. Of course Javik, as an actual Prothean, knows more about some details of his civilization than Liara does. All she had to go on was 50,000 year old ruins, while he lived in that civilization. Also it's not unusual for scientists to be wrong occasionally. It's part of the process of discovery. Even some of the most brilliant scientific minds in human history, like Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein, were occasionally wrong.

I believe they have more knowledge through the amount of time they spent studying the Protheans. Of course we have no idea how long Liara's peers have been studying, but its safe to say they know more than her since they had to know about them in order for the subject to be taught. Its unfortunate that there wasn't another Prothean researcher in the game to compare notes with. We're left with Liara and have to go by what she says.

[Vazgen]

2171

The University of Serrice agreed to sponsor me at the Prothean dig on Dretirop. Very exciting! Professor Henell is heading the expedition herself. Maybe I can even ask her for her opinion on my thesis outline.

(Attachment: Thesis on Prothean first-contact protocols)

 

2174

I believe Dr. Joshawn was right to suggest that the Prothean artifacts we unearthed are from the 3rd Age, not the 4th. What an embarrassing mistake! At least he seemed to approve of the rest of the paper.

(Attachment: Paper on a comparison of Prothean technology to modern asari circuit logic)

[von uber]

This is a new twist on liara hatred - doubting her in game credentials. Fascinating.

[God]

That's been around for a while dude. 

 

Liara herself even doubts her knowledge compared to what she learns about the Protheans from both Javik, and the other Asari (who reveal they know a lot more than they let on to her.)

 

And as far as her credentials go for being an information broker, she's very lacking. And not very good at it. Despite what she tells you.

[von uber]

I find this whole thing fascinating. It's lile some irrational obsession people have.

[Vazgen]

I find this whole thing fascinating. It's lile some irrational obsession people have.

I agree. I myself don't like that the game gives her more screen time than other characters that I like more, but this whole crusade against her is a bit weird. It seems irrational to me that people know that much about a character they don't like.

[themikefest]

I agree. I myself don't like that the game gives her more screen time than other characters that I like more, but this whole crusade against her is a bit weird. It seems irrational to me that people know that much about a character they don't like.

So if someone doesn't know much about a character, they need to hate that character? I hated Liara before ME3 was released. In ME3, she has scenes that have nothing to do with nothing except that she's put there for whatever reason and those are unavoidable

[Vazgen]

So if someone doesn't know much about a character, they need to hate that character? I hated Liara before ME3 was released. In ME3, she has scenes that have nothing to do with nothing except that she's put there for whatever reason and those are unavoidable

You misunderstood. I said that if someone hates a character he will not go and learn so much about him/her. I've seen arguments here that require quite a good knowledge of Liara's character and I don't think that someone who hated the character would've been interested enough to learn all that information, most of which is completely optional. 

[von uber]

Can't you avoid liara completely in me2? I'm sure I have before.

[themikefest]

Can't you avoid liara completely in me2? I'm sure I have before.

You can. But since I play on the ps3, she is always the one to tell Shepard that Joker is still in the c**kpit 

[wright1978]

So if someone doesn't know much about a character, they need to hate that character? I hated Liara before ME3 was released. In ME3, she has scenes that have nothing to do with nothing except that she's put there for whatever reason and those are unavoidable

 

Think her implementation fell between two stools.I personally found that her misuse in ME3 prompted negative feelings towards her that i hadn't previously felt.

The idea in the original endings that one of Shep's last thoughts is of her was kind of symptomatic of that misuse. The rational part of my brain realises the character herself isn't actually at fault but i'm constantly fighting the unwelcome feeling while playing.

[Daemul]

Can't you avoid liara completely in me2? I'm sure I have before.

 

You can. On my first play through of ME2, I completely missed any mentions of her(don't ask, I have no idea how), so it wasn't until the credits rolled at the end of the Suicide Mission, and I saw her name pop up, that I thought to myself, "Wait, Liara's in the game?"

 

When I found out that she was actually in the game, I felt so bad for missing her that I went back to ME1, and created my first ever Femshep to romance her.

 

In my defence though, I never really found Liara all that interesting, she was like that kid back in school, who was always in the background and ignored by everyone, so I never noticed until it was way too late, that I hadn't talked to her at all. Like I said, I felt really bad about it though. 

[themikefest]

...

. A developer outright said after ME2's release that the reason Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara were sidelined during the suicide mission was so we couldn't get them killed because Bioware had plans for them in Mass Effect 3.

That's hard to believe since they're the one's developing the game and have control of whether a character can die or not

[Daemul]

The idea in the original endings that one of Shep's last thoughts is of her was kind of symptomatic of that misuse.

 

I romanced Ashley, so I never knew until later on, that anyone who didn't do one of the three main ME1 romances, had Liara show up in their flashback.