421 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

I think the parallel is that the ME2 squad got a similar treatment to much of the ME1 squad (Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, and Liara pre LOTSB)
 
I was fairly certain going in that the ME2 squad would get a similar treatment.

Me, too.

ME2 demonstrated the fact that squaddies would change from game to game - I wouldn't have expected to see any of them again, especially since there were so many. Team dextro were the only ones available in all 3 games. Tali had the most plot-relevant content available overall.

[Valmar]

Not sure that Tali being on the lower end of the popularity scale means people didn't like her, they just liked other characters slightly more. 

 

Plus the character  is only available halfway through the game. I don't know if they factor that into their ranking system or not, though. They don't give us specifics on how they determine these numbers.

 

 

Me, too.

ME2 demonstrated the fact that squaddies would change from game to game - I wouldn't have expected to see any of them again, especially since there were so many. Team dextro were the only ones available in all 3 games. Tali had the most plot-relevant content available overall.

 

I'd argue they were still more significant to the story in ME3 than they ever were in ME2.

 

In ME2 you could, in theory, never meet Wrex or Liara. You could ignore them, I believe. The virmire survivor is the only one forced into the main story and that role is just to spit at Shepard for a brief moment.

 

In ME3 many of the characters both from ME1 and ME2 actually have roles in the mainstory and cannot be skipped.

[ZipZap2000]

Plus the character  is only available halfway through the game. I don't know if they factor that into their ranking system or not, though. They don't give us specifics on how they determine these numbers

 

Squad usage would also explain it. Tali is really only useful against Geth for the greater part of the series. 

[Allison_Lightning]

I just wanted Miranda on my squad out of the squadmates from the second game, outside of Garrus and Tali, and she made the most sense to have on your crew roster, especially since she's one of the hardest to kill off in Mass Effect 2. A point like Rannoch was for Tali would have kept her in the squad and the risk of her dying on Horizon with the wrong decisions. Liara was rather pointless, and for the Shadow Broker, she should have been doing that rather than constantly poking her way into the story like a poor self-insert in the third game. Priority: Thessia would have been amazing, with her in a meet up several times beforehand and then having one afterwards where she responds depending on your prior conversations and your responses and actually reacted to an idea of 'everything for Earth, but not my homeworld?'

 

Kaidan was fine, even as not a love interest squadmate but Ashley is now dead on Virmire or committed as a war asset for the most annoying squadmate award. I like Liara more than her and that's because at the few, appropriate moments for Liara's character, she was decent but her problem was massive overuse coupled with being a writer's pet. Ashley had zero character growth and regressed heavily in the third game. Tali's drunk moment happened because her father experimented on Geth and unresolved issues that she's assigned to Miranda actually dealing with her dad- Ashley's? Because, while Femshep crying or too emotional is seen as inappropriate, it's appropriate for an Alliance officer and Spectre to be lying on the floor as she's incapacitated by hangover. 

 

Apart from Miranda, Tali and Garrus- I really didn't mind where squadmates either had story reasons and higher purposes than re-joining my squad or I hated them to start with... which was Jacob. I actually dislike him so much there were no romances before I learnt he cheats on Femshep. I may just do a playthrough where he is romanced and then she romances Traynor in the third game before they meet again.

[Iakus]

Plus the character  is only available halfway through the game. I don't know if they factor that into their ranking system or not, though. They don't give us specifics on how they determine these numbers.

 

 

 

I'd argue they were still more significant to the story in ME3 than they ever were in ME2.

 

In ME2 you could, in theory, never meet Wrex or Liara. You could ignore them, I believe. The virmire survivor is the only one forced into the main story and that role is just to spit at Shepard for a brief moment.

 

In ME3 many of the characters both from ME1 and ME2 actually have roles in the mainstory and cannot be skipped.

In as far as anyone in ME2 could potentially be dead in ME3.

 

Plus by ME3, the only ME1 characters guaranteed to be alive are Liara and Kaidan or Ashley (but not both)

[KaiserShep]

Squad usage would also explain it. Tali is really only useful against Geth for the greater part of the series. 

 

Pretty much this. In ME1 it's kind of a toss-up, because the variety of armors and ridiculously powerful Spectre weapons allows you to turn her into a techno-tank with a shotgun, but ME2 and 3, she's sub par against anything that isn't a synthetic.

[wright1978]

I think the parallel is that the ME2 squad got a similar treatment to much of the ME1 squad (Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, and Liara pre LOTSB)

 

I was fairly certain going in that the ME2 squad would get a similar treatment.  

 

I didn't think going in they'd be so biased. Some of the ME1 squad came across to ME2, which was the parallel i was expecting for ME2 squaddies in ME3.

[Valmar]

In as far as anyone in ME2 could potentially be dead in ME3.

 

Plus by ME3, the only ME1 characters guaranteed to be alive are Liara and Kaidan or Ashley (but not both)

 

Yes, those who are dead obviously are not part of the story. I rather assumed that would be obvious though - didn't think it needed pointing out.
 

 

I didn't think going in they'd be so biased. Some of the ME1 squad came across to ME2, which was the parallel i was expecting for ME2 squaddies in ME3.

 

Garrus and Tali don't count? I thought they were in ME2.

 

There isn't really any bias when you factor everything in.

 

ME1: Garrus, Wrex, Liara, Tali, Kaidan/Ashley

ME2: Garrus, Tali, Wrex (minor conversation only), Kaidan/Ashley (minor conversation only)

ME3: Garrus, Tali, Liara, Wrex, Thane, Miranda, Legion, Mordin, Kaidan/Ashley (relative - multiple outcomes)

 

When you look at all the context, it isn't as bad as you keep painting it out to be. The ME2 characters get love. As for the squad roster well its pretty even. You can get two ME2 characters and potentially two ME1 (exclusive) characters. Hard to see it as fair to accuse them of bias when you get even amounts on both sides in the squad department and overall more story-catering to ME2 squadies.

 

Thane, Miranda, Legion, Mordin. There, four ME2-exclusive characters that got story-significance in the game. Whereas in ME2 what did we get for our old squad? We got a spit in the face and a short hacking quest,

 

 

I wish some of the ME2 squad were part of our party in ME3 instead of them shoehorning in three new squadmates at the last moment. That being said I do feel Bioware aren't getting as much credit as they deserve and that the problem is being blown out of proportion due to emotional reasons.

[themikefest]

 

Garrus and Tali don't count? I thought they were in ME2.

 

They were. 

 

Lets reword it. How about having ME2 squadmates on the Normandy in ME3 that weren't in ME1?

[wright1978]

Yes, those who are dead obviously are not part of the story. I rather assumed that would be obvious though - didn't think it needed pointing out.
 

 

 

Garrus and Tali don't count? I thought they were in ME2.

 

There isn't really any bias when you factor everything in.

 

ME1: Garrus, Wrex, Liara, Tali, Kaidan/Ashley

ME2: Garrus, Tali, Wrex (minor conversation only), Kaidan/Ashley (minor conversation only)

ME3: Garrus, Tali, Liara, Wrex, Thane, Miranda, Legion, Mordin, Kaidan/Ashley (relative - multiple outcomes)

 

When you look at all the context, it isn't as bad as you keep painting it out to be. The ME2 characters get love. As for the squad roster well its pretty even. You can get two ME2 characters and potentially two ME1 (exclusive) characters. Hard to see it as fair to accuse them of bias when you get even amounts on both sides in the squad department and overall more story-catering to ME2 squadies.

 

Thane, Miranda, Legion, Mordin. There, four ME2-exclusive characters that got story-significance in the game. Whereas in ME2 what did we get for our old squad? We got a spit in the face and a short hacking quest,

 

 

I wish some of the ME2 squad were part of our party in ME3 instead of them shoehorning in three new squadmates at the last moment. That being said I do feel Bioware aren't getting as much credit as they deserve and that the problem is being blown out of proportion due to emotional reasons.

Garrus and Tali are from the ME1 squad, so yeah they don't really count. All the ME2 exclusives got shafted into cameo content, whilst 3 of the remaining ME1 cast returned as full squaddies alongside the continued presence of Garrus and Tali. So that's 5 of the 6 from ME1, whereas if you liked the ME2 squad you get 0, that's biased. Their cameo treatment was treated marginally better but with odd exception their actual content was poor and none of them got an entire DLC devoted to them as Liara did, so swings and roundabouts. Like you i wish they hadn't shoehorned in a bunch of new squadmates but equally even given that decision they should have had at least a single representative of the ME2 exclusives rather than jettisoning them all and hoping that by treating them all equally badly they'd avoid criticism.

[God]

I don't know how to say on this. 

 

Some characters got the shaft. Others did in some aspects, while getting better treatment elsewhere.

 

After Citadel, Miranda's romance really actually feels like the best romance for Male Shepard. She gets a lot of quality content in there. Granted, I still think that she should have been the token ME2 squadmate of ME3.

 

Ashley meanwhile gets crap content past ME1.

[Valmar]

Garrus and Tali are from the ME1 squad, so yeah they don't really count. All the ME2 exclusives got shafted into cameo content, whilst 3 of the remaining ME1 cast returned as full squaddies alongside the continued presence of Garrus and Tali. So that's 5 of the 6 from ME1, whereas if you liked the ME2 squad you get 0, that's biased. Their cameo treatment was treated marginally better but with odd exception their actual content was poor and none of them got an entire DLC devoted to them as Liara did, so swings and roundabouts. Like you i wish they hadn't shoehorned in a bunch of new squadmates but equally even given that decision they should have had at least a single representative of the ME2 exclusives rather than jettisoning them all and hoping that by treating them all equally badly they'd avoid criticism.

 

 

If they don't "really count" as being ME2 members in ME3 because they're introduced in ME1 then even if the entire ME2 roster was in ME3 they shouldn't "really count" since they didn't originate in ME3. In that sense the only "real" squadmates ME3 has is James, EDI and Javik. Oh, wait, EDI was kinda in ME2 so maybe she shouldn't really count either.

 

So. ME3 only has two squadmates.

 

 

No, not "All the ME2 exclusives" got shafted into cameo content. Miranda, Thane, Legion, Mordin. All of those, if they're alive, are integral to the main story line. They're not just part of some random side mission you can avoid - which one can safely call "cameo" appearances. They're in the main, unskippable story. Again compare this to the treatment of ME1 squad in ME2 that could for the most part be ignored entirely or only exist for one scene for sake calling Shepard a traitor. Hell, at least your romances from ME2 get some attention. Not as much as they should, imo, but not as bad as what they did with our LI's from the first game in ME2. That was just dreadful, no matter how much Liara-haters would like you to believe otherwise.

 

I also disagree with the notion that they treat them all "equally badly". They've showed more "bias favoritism" towards the ME2 squad than they did the ME1 squad.

 

ME2 completely handwaved over half of your ME1 squad and all romance options. ME3 not only has side missions that include every single character (boy is there a lot of them in ME2) but SIX of them get special treatment. Garrus and Tali both there, can't miss them. Thane is there, saves the councilor. Wrex is there, big part of the genophage arc. Mordin is there, biggest part of the genophage arc. Legion is there, biggest part of the rannoch arc. Miranda is there for the start of the final Cerberus arc. That doesn't include the extra "optional" content they have.

 

Considering all these people could be dead we should be more impressed with just how much attention they actually received. It could had been so much worse... as ME2 taught us.

 

Being disappointed that your favorite ME2 squadies don't return to the gang in ME3 is understandable. Its a disappointment I share. That doesn't mean we should exaggerate the situation and stack the deck.

 

 

 

their cameo treatment was treated marginally better but with odd exception their actual content was poor and none of them got an entire DLC devoted to them as Liara did, so swings and roundabouts.

 

The Citadel completely obliterates the Shadow Broker dlc in terms of giving content to any one character. The SB dlc was not central focused on specifically Liara content. She played a role, certainly, but it was more on the SB story. The Citadel DLC for the most part exists solely for the sake of giving us more character interaction with all the characters with the story just being smacked on for the sake of saying it has one.

[Linkenski]

I agree. I think Miranda got the best romance arc (and best a$$) but she really deserved to be more of a main character in ME3 and part of the normandy crew instead of her daddy-issues 2.0 rehash.

 

I think they treated Thane really, really well. I've seen lots of people complain that he's forgotten after he died. Yes, you're right, it's a shame our crew don't ever comment on it but the little arc he got in ME3 until he's a goner including his death scene were all spectacular and perfect for what I was expecting really.

 

Mordin got a really good role, as did Legion... no wait, he didn't but whatever, they tried.

 

As for Samara, Jacob, Grunt, Kasumi, Zaeed etc. I do agree... it's lame they didn't get anything really great in the main plot but when it comes to picking the characters to get the shaft Bioware sorted things out the best they could've IMO. I didn't think any of those I just mentioned really deserved anything major, the biggest being Samara though, and honestly Lesuss was great. The only thing I really disliked was her forced suicide attempt because "the code dictates I derp.", I thought it was lame... it makes sense but it felt so forced IMO.

 

 

EDIT:

Lol Valmar, you're not making sense now.

[Iakus]

Yes, those who are dead obviously are not part of the story. I rather assumed that would be obvious though - didn't think it needed pointing out.
 

What I'm pointing out is that they needed to account for them being dead.  Therefore, none of the characters that could be dead could have particularly important roles.  Thier jobs would have to be fillable by someone else.

 

Liara is the only squadmate from ME1 or ME2 who cannot possibly be dead.  Thus she gets to be the "favorite"  Ashley or Kaidan is also alive, thus they get to share a role (and look how well that worked out)

[Linkenski]

Garrus and Tali are potentially dead, yet they seemed to get great moments throughout ME3... but it's understandable with the size of ME2's crew that BIoware decided to sort in it.

 

I don't think this would've changed if the game had a longer dev cycle either. Look at how poorly DA:I incorporated potentially dead people: You save your merchant from Haven, then he gets replaced in Skyhold anyway.

[themikefest]

If anything, get rid of the platforrm called edi and have it remain as a hologram. Remove James even though I like the character and bring in Jack and Miranda in their place, that way both Miranda and Jack can be present at the memorial wall to hold Shepard's nameplate. 

[Iakus]

If anything, get rid of the platforrm called edi and have it remain as a hologram. Remove James even though I like the character and bring in Jack and Miranda in their place, that way both Miranda and Jack can be present at the memorial wall to hold Shepard's nameplate. 

And if either/both of them are dead?  They'd have to budget for them being there or not.  Don't get me wrong, LI representation should be there.  But every time a potentially dead squadmate makes an appearance, you have to account for their not being there as well.

 

Also, Bioware made sure you get at least three characters, a soldier, biotic, and tech specialist. Ditch James and EDI, and you've got three (or two or one) biotics.

[themikefest]

And if either/both of them are dead?  They'd have to budget for them being there or not.  Don't get me wrong, LI representation should be there.  But every time a potentially dead squadmate makes an appearance, you have to account for their not being there as well.

 

Also, Bioware made sure you get at least three characters, a soldier, biotic, and tech specialist. Ditch James and EDI, and you've got three (or two or one) biotics.

It would be a simple fix. Don't have Ashley/Kaidan injured by evabot that way they can remain on the ship. Have some random c-sec officer protect the council.

[Mordokai]

I agree. I think Miranda got the best romance arc (and best a$$)...

 

Oh I don't know... I think Liara has a pretty solid set of glutes on her as well...

 

Spoiler

 

Superior to Miranda even, I would say.

[Quarian Master Race]

Squad usage would also explain it. Tali is really only useful against Geth for the greater part of the series. 

 

 

Pretty much this. In ME1 it's kind of a toss-up, because the variety of armors and ridiculously powerful Spectre weapons allows you to turn her into a techno-tank with a shotgun, but ME2 and 3, she's sub par against anything that isn't a synthetic.

ME2's combat drone is pretty OP (especially against sub-bosses, particularly Scions) and ED is functionally a better overload. AI hacking is useless but that's why you don't spec it on her. She is good against pretty much every enemy type but Blood Pack, and even there the drone is good against krogan, particularly in explosive spec. 

ME3 she is probably the most overpowered squadmate ( along with Liara and other than anyone armed with a Typhoon) with a tech-biased shep simply because squadmate weapons fire is mostly terrible. Therefore best way to use squadmates is to setup combos, and she can set them up about twice as fast as anyone else (other than Liara's absurd 2 second singularity, which only applies to biotic kits) at around every 5 seconds or so. Sabotage's 6b Tech Vulnerability rank is also hilariously powerful, to the point where it got a nerf in the multiplayer from 100% extra damage to 50%.

She's probably down on popularity in that list for the same reason as the two VS, because at best you can get her at just past 1/3 of the way through the game, and realistically closer to halfway if you do the missions in a normal manner. 

 

[ZipZap2000]

ME2's combat drone is pretty OP (especially against sub-bosses, particularly Scions) and ED is functionally a better overload. AI hacking is useless but that's why you don't spec it on her. She is good against pretty much every enemy type but Blood Pack, and even there the drone is good against krogan, particularly in explosive spec. 

ME3 she is probably the most overpowered squadmate ( along with Liara and other than anyone armed with a Typhoon) with a tech-biased shep simply because squadmate weapons fire is mostly terrible. Therefore best way to use squadmates is to setup combos, and she can set them up about twice as fast as anyone else (other than Liara's absurd 2 second singularity, which only applies to biotic kits) at around every 5 seconds or so. Sabotage's 6b Tech Vulnerability rank is also hilariously powerful, to the point where it got a nerf in the multiplayer from 100% extra damage to 50%.

She's probably down on popularity in that list for the same reason as the two VS, because at best you can get her at just past 1/3 of the way through the game, and realistically closer to halfway if you do the missions in a normal manner. 

 

 

I disagree, your argument here is based on the assumption that 100% of players would be paying as much attention to specs as say you or I would and clearly you're looking at it from  the perspective of a veteran MP'er. Most people put the disk in give it a whirl and generally only play once or twice.  

 

Combat drone is good but it's not great until you have two of them on the field (recharge times in me2) so you'll need legion or to play as a specific class to see the be able to outstrip what you can do with say kasumi/garrus/grunt it's not even a competition when you consider the other abilities on offer (concussive shot). AI Hacking? Wasted slot. You're better off going with a biotic shep, one biotic squaddy and a garrus/edi/james/Ashley combo in ME3 especially if you've got OMEGA shields can be stripped easily without tech and biotics can ragdoll your enemies, tear down armour etc. 

 

The only real exception is Rannoch missions where you can go in with shield drain and sabotage and wreck face against Geth Primes on insanity. Tali isn't useless let's be clear but things like defense matrix are generally a wasted slot where you could have overload or concussive shot or carnage. Taking Tali on the earth run leaves you at a disadvantage for example.

 

It's probably a combination of all things you don't get her till late and she's a specialist for taking out synthetics I like using her and romancing her for the record I'm just saying.

[The Arbiter]

I don't know why they did that. Lack of time, I imagine. Having at least your love interest on the ship would've been great. 

yeah rushed the game

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Morinth got the worst treatment in ME3. I understand why, only a very small percentage of people ever recruit her in ME2 and she could die in the suicide mission. Also she didn't have the same sort of content in ME2 anyway. But did they really need to make her a banshee? If they had done that properly but she was just a throw away enemy (I didn't even notice until a friend mentioned it because I'd used a rocket). Was I meant to think it was funny? Or was it just Bioware telling me my renegade choice was wrong again?

I thought they possibly were going to make squad mates a bit different in ME3. Have a few core squad mates (Ash/Kaiden and Liara being obvious choices because we know they are around) and the others become temporary squad mates for sections of the game.

I was glad to have Garrus and Tali back but I do think we should have got someone from ME2 back (I guess we had EDI but I dunno if she counts). I think Miranda would have made the most sense to bring in as a full squad mate for ME3 (and I play female Shepard so no romance bias) she was your second in command in ME2 and I think it would have been fun to see her clash with our alliance crew in ME3. I think it also would have made our swing from alliance to cerberus back to alliance less jarring.

[Quarian Master Race]

I disagree, your argument here is based on the assumption that 100% of players would be paying as much attention to specs as say you or I would and clearly you're looking at it from  the perspective of a veteran MP'er. Most people put the disk in give it a whirl and generally only play once or twice.  

Well that wasn't your original argument, but are we basing effectiveness on not understanding the mechanics now? You hardly have to be a Platinum soloist to know how to set up, buff and detonate combos in singleplayer, which is the single most useful feature of squadmates as far as dealing damage goes. Granted, if you lack the mental faculties to understand that the squad power wheel and hotkeys exist for a reason, than I could see where the squadmates with fast power recharge like Liara and Tali will be wasted.

  Combat drone is good but it's not great until you have two of them on the field (recharge times in me2) so you'll need legion or to play as a specific class to see the be able to outstrip what you can do with say kasumi/garrus/grunt it's not even a competition when you consider the other abilities on offer (concussive shot). AI Hacking? Wasted slot. You're better off going with a biotic shep, one biotic squaddy and a garrus/edi/james/Ashley combo in ME3 especially if you've got OMEGA shields can be stripped easily without tech and biotics can ragdoll your enemies, tear down armour etc. 

Well, comparing any squadmate to Kasumi looks bad because Shadow Strike is the single most OP squadmate ability, and Kasumi has one of the best recharge rates on overload as well (not that one would waste many cooldowns on it anyway when a SS will do more damage, and draw aggro, and CC). That out of the way, you certainly don't need 2 drones for them to be highly effective. In fact, doing so (multiple drones) pretty much trivializes the game into target practice if you have even half decent aim because you will only ever be fighting 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

Comparing it to concussive shot is hilarious. I think that is literally the most useless power on insanity other than maybe shockwave, Cryo blast or AI hacking. Garrus is okay, versatile but nothing special in ME2 (worse than Legion or Zaeed at weapon damage, worse than Kasumi, Tali and Miranda for defense stripping and can only CC health mooks), and Grunt's only decent offensive power is squad incendiary ammo (which isn't very useful for combat Shepards anyway), while fortification is only useful on husk missions or if you aren't very good at killing the enemy quickly and need a meat shield, and his weapon damage output is no better than any other AR or Shotty squadmate (because AI doesn't reload cancel the Claymore).

Now, ME3 concussive shot is a great power because it serves as a quite fast universal tech detonator (and primer with the right evos, though this results in weaker combos). Other than that, squadmate effectiveness will be based on the class you are playing and team synergy. Liara is terrible with two tech squadmates as all she can do is warp detonate and debuff armor, and Tali is similarly less effective against non synthetics without a tech heavy team (basically only useful for shield stripping and tanking). I fail to see why intentionally building a squad with poor synergy is the fault of the characters, though. The ones you listed are all inferior, especially James and EDI because of slow power recharge and lack of debuffs. You are never going to come close to being able to get as much damage with them and their 10-15 second cooldowns as you can making booms twice as fast (and in Tali's case, making the entire team's booms do 200% damage).
 

 

The only real exception is Rannoch missions where you can go in with shield drain and sabotage and wreck face against Geth Primes on insanity. Tali isn't useless let's be clear but things like defense matrix are generally a wasted slot where you could have overload or concussive shot or carnage. Taking Tali on the earth run leaves you at a disadvantage for example.

I agree defense matrix is not only useless but actively harmful (due to slowing power recharge), which is part of the reason why I never spec it (or take the sexbot anywhere for that matter). Tali has defense drone, which is also useless, but why would you ever waste a cooldown on it when you can just get a tech burst and kill the group of things attacking? Plenty of powers in this game are useless because of universal cooldown, doesn't make the characters they are on any less powerful (look at Carnage on the MP Kroguard). From a Min/Max perspective, James's Fortification is useless (and Carnage is so slow it is functionally useless too), Sexbot's decoy and Defense Matrix are useless, Ashley's Marksman, Kaidan's Cryo Blast and Javik's pull are as well.

Bolded: As opposed to what? You are massively underestimating how OP Sabotage's Tech Vulnerability is in singleplayer in a tech heavy team. Some of the fastest Priority: Earth runs I've had have been with Infiltrator Shep, Tali and Ashley/Garrus (really any concussive shot spammer). On Insanity with its higher combo damage. a rank 6 Sabotage followed by a cloaked incinerate and a concussive shot will melt a Banshee or group of Brutes in a couple seconds, and tech bursts setup by Energy Drain instakill mooks in a 7m+ radius. The only way I can think of possibly going faster in that particular mission would be a Vanguard Shepard with Liara and Tali. Hotkey singularity and Energy drain, Spam them every couple of seconds and detonate with my face. Sabotage for boss melting.

To give my post some semblance of being on topic: because they were by and large less popular than the ME1 squad (especially the power trio of Garrus, Liara and Tali), with a few exceptions like Miranda and Grunt. I'd have prefered pretty much any ME2 squadmate but Jacob to return over the sexbot and James.