421 réponses à ce sujet

[The Arbiter]

Sooo much argument... the reason why lots of old crew in ME2 where not there for a long time nor an epic finale battle in the citadel which did not explain how TIM single handedly took over it nor what happened to the people inside the citadel during priority earth is simply because... EA! EA ladies and gentlemen!!!! RELEASE WINDOWS "We need to have more sales than COD and SKYRIM" then when Bioware fails to deliver = Dev division shut downed yep EA ladies and gents

[grey_wind]

Ultimately, even if you accept that the ME2 crew couldn't come back as squadmates, the big problem lies in how meaningless the content most of them got was:

 

- Miranda just gets a rehash of her loyalty mission, and nearly all the interesting aspects of her character (Cerberus 2nd in command, her leadership qualities) are all jettisoned

- Jacob's content is just... rubbish

- Grunt's existentialist aspects are completely gone, and the fact that he was designed as a potential alternative to the Genophage is never brought up. Instead, he's just a really strong Krogan brute

- Jack's character arc jumps too unbelievably far ahead, and makes no sense if you convinced her to kill Aresh.

- Thane's struggles with accepting his death are completely dropped in favour of some "redemption arc" he never had

 

Even Mordin and Legion aren't really spared from this, despite their increased screen time. Mordin's turnaround on the Genophage comes across half-baked and feels moralistic on part of the writers, and Legion just suffers from the generic Pinocchio syndrome that completely retconned the Geth as a whole.

 

The only character who feels true to herself is Samara, her continuous conflict of balancing the code with her feelings for her daughters coming full circle (especially if she actually commits suicide). The problem here is that we don't even really see her before this moment of truth, and so her dilemma feels rushed and underdeveloped.

 

Zaeed and Kasumi were DLC and didn't have as much time devoted to their characters in-game, so it's easier to swallow their cameo status.

 

But the rest of the ME2 crew deserved a lot better, even with their limited screen time. 

[ZipZap2000]

Well that wasn't your original argument, but are we basing effectiveness on not understanding the mechanics now? You hardly have to be a Platinum soloist to know how to set up, buff and detonate combos in singleplayer, which is the single most useful feature of squadmates as far as dealing damage goes. Granted, if you lack the mental faculties to understand that the squad power wheel and hotkeys exist for a reason, than I could see where the squadmates with fast power recharge like Liara and Tali will be wasted.

Well, comparing any squadmate to Kasumi looks bad because Shadow Strike is the single most OP squadmate ability, and Kasumi has one of the best recharge rates on overload as well (not that one would waste many cooldowns on it anyway when a SS will do more damage, and draw aggro, and CC). That out of the way, you certainly don't need 2 drones for them to be highly effective. In fact, doing so (multiple drones) pretty much trivializes the game into target practice if you have even half decent aim because you will only ever be fighting 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

Comparing it to concussive shot is hilarious. I think that is literally the most useless power on insanity other than maybe shockwave, Cryo blast or AI hacking. Garrus is okay, versatile but nothing special in ME2 (worse than Legion or Zaeed at weapon damage, worse than Kasumi, Tali and Miranda for defense stripping and can only CC health mooks), and Grunt's only decent offensive power is squad incendiary ammo (which isn't very useful for combat Shepards anyway), while fortification is only useful on husk missions or if you aren't very good at killing the enemy quickly and need a meat shield, and his weapon damage output is no better than any other AR or Shotty squadmate (because AI doesn't reload cancel the Claymore).

Now, ME3 concussive shot is a great power because it serves as a quite fast universal tech detonator (and primer with the right evos, though this results in weaker combos). Other than that, squadmate effectiveness will be based on the class you are playing and team synergy. Liara is terrible with two tech squadmates as all she can do is warp detonate and debuff armor, and Tali is similarly less effective against non synthetics without a tech heavy team (basically only useful for shield stripping and tanking). I fail to see why intentionally building a squad with poor synergy is the fault of the characters, though. The ones you listed are all inferior, especially James and EDI because of slow power recharge and lack of debuffs. You are never going to come close to being able to get as much damage with them and their 10-15 second cooldowns as you can making booms twice as fast (and in Tali's case, making the entire team's booms do 200% damage).
 

 

I agree defense matrix is not only useless but actively harmful (due to slowing power recharge), which is part of the reason why I never spec it (or take the sexbot anywhere for that matter). Tali has defense drone, which is also useless, but why would you ever waste a cooldown on it when you can just get a tech burst and kill the group of things attacking? Plenty of powers in this game are useless because of universal cooldown, doesn't make the characters they are on any less powerful (look at Carnage on the MP Kroguard). From a Min/Max perspective, James's Fortification is useless (and Carnage is so slow it is functionally useless too), Sexbot's decoy and Defense Matrix are useless, Ashley's Marksman, Kaidan's Cryo Blast and Javik's pull are as well.

Bolded: As opposed to what? You are massively underestimating how OP Sabotage's Tech Vulnerability is in singleplayer in a tech heavy team. Some of the fastest Priority: Earth runs I've had have been with Infiltrator Shep, Tali and Ashley/Garrus (really any concussive shot spammer). On Insanity with its higher combo damage. a rank 6 Sabotage followed by a cloaked incinerate and a concussive shot will melt a Banshee or group of Brutes in a couple seconds, and tech bursts setup by Energy Drain instakill mooks in a 7m+ radius. The only way I can think of possibly going faster in that particular mission would be a Vanguard Shepard with Liara and Tali. Hotkey singularity and Energy drain, Spam them every couple of seconds and detonate with my face. Sabotage for boss melting.

To give my post some semblance of being on topic: because they were by and large less popular than the ME1 squad (especially the power trio of Garrus, Liara and Tali), with a few exceptions like Miranda and Grunt. I'd have prefered pretty much any ME2 squadmate but Jacob to return over the sexbot and James.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to respond like this but honestly my opinion is going to change.

[Quarian Master Race]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond like this but honestly my opinion is going to change.

Fair enough, and It's an OT discussion for the combat strategy or customization subforum, anyway. To be fair, I do agree that if you don't micromanage ME3 Tali, she isn't going to bring as much to the team as many other squadmates, but not that she is anything less than one of the most powerful squadmates in terms of potential party DPS, regardless of enemy type.

Moreover, I reiterate that her low popularity on that list has to do more with being acquired so late and not any gameplay weaknesses (real or percieved). Otherwise, Ashley (who is acquired at basically the exact same time) wouldn't be so unpopular, because she is in relative terms very powerful and effective against all 3 enemy factions as well, regardless of how much you micromanage. It's very hard to get a high percentage of usage when you are only available for around 30-40% of the missions compared to the characters at the top of the list, who are mostly acquired in the first hour or two of the game, doubly so if you are expendable in the majority of playthroughs (which Tali and Kaidan both are).

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Fair enough, and It's an OT discussion for the combat strategy or customization subforum, anyway. To be fair, I do agree that if you don't micromanage ME3 Tali, she isn't going to bring as much to the team as many other squadmates, but not that she is anything less than one of the most powerful squadmates in terms of potential party DPS, regardless of enemy type.

Moreover, I reiterate that her low popularity on that list has to do more with being acquired so late and not any gameplay weaknesses (real or percieved). Otherwise, Ashley (who is acquired at basically the exact same time) wouldn't be so unpopular, because she is in relative terms very powerful and effective against all 3 enemy factions as well, regardless of how much you micromanage. It's very hard to get a high percentage of usage when you are only available for around 30-40% of the missions compared to the characters at the top of the list, who are mostly acquired in the first hour or two of the game, doubly so if you are expendable in the majority of playthroughs (which Tali and Kaidan both are).

 

ME3 didn't have enough missions. I think that has a lot to do with the game's problems. In ME1 and ME2, there were so many missions that I didn't feel as though I was giving any character the shaft. But ME3's relative paucity of missions meant that the main plot and subplots progressed unusually quickly and there weren't many opportunities to use new loadouts, break dialogue up, and so on.

 

With the VS and Tali, this is especially true. They come into play so late in the vanilla game that by the time you can bring them along for any missions, the game is almost over. DLC mostly fixed this, but still, it sometimes doesn't feel as though there's enough to do. In ME1, I never had this feeling because the combination of a small team and many, short missions meant that everyone got some time to do things. Certain characters like EDI were almost completely irrelevant in my playthroughs because I didn't want to waste a 40+ minute mission on a character I didn't care for when I could use someone more enjoyable instead.

 

In my main ME1 playthrough, Wrex and Tali go to Therum, Liara and Garrus to Noveria, Ash and Kaidan went to Feros. Kaidan and Wrex go to Virmire part 1, Ash and Garrus part 2, and then after Ash takes the bomb, Garrus and Wrex for part 3, and then Tali and Garrus for Ilos and the endgame. In-between, there were plenty of missions. Ash and Tali cleared out Cerberus' main base. Liara and Tali defeted the Luna VI. Ash and Garrus defended X57 from Balak. Garrus and Wrex killed a disgraced pirate. Kaidan and Garrus vanquished Dr. Heart. Long story short, everyone had something to do.

 

I never really was able to do anything like that in ME3.

[The Arbiter]

ME3 didn't have enough missions. I think that has a lot to do with the game's problems. In ME1 and ME2, there were so many missions that I didn't feel as though I was giving any character the shaft. But ME3's relative paucity of missions meant that the main plot and subplots progressed unusually quickly and there weren't many opportunities to use new loadouts, break dialogue up, and so on.

 

With the VS and Tali, this is especially true. They come into play so late in the vanilla game that by the time you can bring them along for any missions, the game is almost over. DLC mostly fixed this, but still, it sometimes doesn't feel as though there's enough to do. In ME1, I never had this feeling because the combination of a small team and many, short missions meant that everyone got some time to do things. Certain characters like EDI were almost completely irrelevant in my playthroughs because I didn't want to waste a 40+ minute mission on a character I didn't care for when I could use someone more enjoyable instead.

 

In my main ME1 playthrough, Wrex and Tali go to Therum, Liara and Garrus to Noveria, Ash and Kaidan went to Feros. Kaidan and Wrex go to Virmire part 1, Ash and Garrus part 2, and then after Ash takes the bomb, Garrus and Wrex for part 3, and then Tali and Garrus for Ilos and the endgame. In-between, there were plenty of missions. Ash and Tali cleared out Cerberus' main base. Liara and Tali defeted the Luna VI. Ash and Garrus defended X57 from Balak. Garrus and Wrex killed a disgraced pirate. Kaidan and Garrus vanquished Dr. Heart. Long story short, everyone had something to do.

 

I never really was able to do anything like that in ME3.

Because EA release windows. Even after the battle of Cerberus station TIM magically bypassed c-sec and controlled the citadel wtf

[chidingewe8036]

I really hope Bioware gets it together in this next trilogy, don't half ass stuff, plan out your story don't make decisions on the fly with this type of story. The way they treated the ME2 squad in ME3 was the primary reason I loathed the game, and the citadel dlc meh I've never played it just YouTubed it. Bioware needs to get ME4 right character wise, story wise, and ending wise or they can forget it. They need to take the time they need and create something memorable. Period.

[shepskisaac]

Tali and Garrus shouldn't have been squadamates, simple. They already were twice, why third time at the cost of character like Miranda who absolutely should've been on the Normandy 24/7 giving the Cerberus importance in the game.

[God]

Tali and Garrus shouldn't have been squadamates, simple. They already were twice, why third time at the cost of character like Miranda who absolutely should've been on the Normandy 24/7 giving the Cerberus importance in the game.

 

Well, in all honesty, the Tali-fans nearly rioted when they heard she might not be a squadmate.

[shepskisaac]

Well, in all honesty, the Tali-fans nearly rioted when they heard she might not be a squadmate.

Bioware should've known better and just ignore it. And before someone says "what if next time they ignore something you want", we're talking Tali (and Garrus) being squadates for the THIRD time. Way different than, say, someone asking for Aria to be a squadmate. Especially considering how big Rannoch arc is in the game, she didn't need to be squadmate at all. She was going to have plenty of screentime regardless, just as Legion/Mordin/Wrex in the 2 main arcs.

 

As much work and contraints as they had in ME3, they also made some big 'resources allocation' mistakes that could've been avoided. Tali/Garrus being one of the biggest.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Tali and Garrus shouldn't have been squadamates, simple. They already were twice, why third time at the cost of character like Miranda who absolutely should've been on the Normandy 24/7 giving the Cerberus importance in the game.

 

I disagree. I would've loved having Miranda on the squad, but Garrus and Tali give the team a lot of stability throughout. I thought it was a great idea to have people who were by Shepard's side from start to finish, instead of writing them off just for the sake of having other people involved.

[shepskisaac]

I disagree. I would've loved having Miranda on the squad, but Garrus and Tali give the team a lot of stability throughout. I thought it was a great idea to have people who were by Shepard's side from start to finish, instead of writing them off just for the sake of having other people involved.

Stability cannot in any way compare to story context, best & balanced use of time/resources and allowing more characters recieve bigger screentime.

 

If the choice is between putting (for example) Miranda & Legion in the squad, who posses the biggest knowledge of the enemies in the story and have been squadmates only once, and Tali & Garrus who already have been squadmates twice and would've had plenty of screentime regardless even if outside the squad because of large number of Turian/Quarian missions, then it should be obvious what to do.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Stability cannot in any way compare to story context, best & balanced use of time/resources and allowing more characters recieve bigger screentime.

 

If the choice is between putting (for example) Miranda & Legion in the squad, who posses the biggest knowledge of the enemies in the story and have been squadmates only once, and Tali & Garrus who already have been squadmates twice and would've had plenty of screentime regardless even if outside the squad because of large number of Turian/Quarian missions, then it should be obvious what to do.

Having people on the team because of what they know? That makes sense.

 

Taking people off the team because they were in two other games? That's arbitrary, parity-oriented writing.

 

Couldn't we just have all four of them on the team?

 

 

I know many people said ME2's team was too big, but I never got that vibe. There were plenty of missions. Everyone could get thrown a bone at some point. ME3 didn't do a good job of that because there weren't many missions at all. If there was more to do, a larger squad selection wouldn't have been nearly as big a problem.

[shepskisaac]

Having people on the team because of what they know? That makes sense.

It doesn't lol? Not only both Legion and Miranda are good in combat which is why they were selected for Suicide Mission, but combined with their knowledge on the main enemy factions in ME3 it's ridiculous to not have them on the team.

 

 

Taking people off the team because they were in two other games? That's arbitrary, parity-oriented writing.

Extremly skewed balance is way worse, especially in case of Garrus who's reciving endless amount of content, elaborate cutscenes and resources for conversations about calibrations, drinking, being a friend, etc. At least with Tali u can argue she has an arc in ME3, Garrus is "Sunday family movie side-kick friend" character in ME3 and little more.

 

 

Couldn't we just have all four of them on the team?

And who would you propose to cut for the sake of keeping Dextro team? Liara? VS? Vega? EDI? Why not cut Dextro and make room for 2 more ME2 squadmates? Maybe Thane and Grunt? Why, oh why do we need Tali and Garrus in every sinle game.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

It doesn't lol? Not only both Legion and Miranda are good in combat which is why they were selected for Suicide Mission, but combined with their knowledge on the main enemy factions in ME3 it's ridiculous to not have them on the team.

 

 

Extremly skewed balance is way worse, especially in case of Garrus who's reciving endless amount of content, elaborate cutscenes and resources for conversations about calibrations, drinking, being a friend, etc. At least with Tali u can argue she has an arc in ME3, Garrus is "Sunday family movie side-kick friend" character in ME3 and little more.

 

 

And who would you propose to cut for the sake of keeping Dextro team? Liara? VS? Vega? EDI? Why not cut Dextro and make room for 2 more ME2 squadmates? Maybe Thane and Grunt? Why, oh why do we need Tali and Garrus in every sinle game.

Not sure what you're arguing with the first point. I'm agreeing with you that Miranda and Legion make sense as squaddies.

 

I don't think any cuts are necessary, though I'd be fine with cutting EDI. I liked EDI, but the sexbot thing was terrible. EDI, the sassy ship AI, was much better than EDI, the squadmate.

 

I'll reiterate that I personally thought that for story reasons, having someone who Shepard could count on as being by his/her side throughout all three games was of great importance just due to a matter of plausibility. At some point, almost everyone turned on Shepard or went their separate ways for a long time, which I thought was pretty arbitrary. Shepard and team have the biggest missions going on and everyone knows it. They are of absolute importance. The whole galaxy needs their help. Yet we get things like Liara running off to chase the Shadow Broker. Why? There won't be a Shadow Broker if the Suicide Mission fails. Couldn't she have signed on for that (like, I'm not a huge Liara fan, but I would've loved if she had been in all three games, too)?

 

Not everybody needs to leave the team and sit out for a while so someone else can show up. Obviously, some people have good reasons (VS doesn't trust Shepard, Wrex is leader of the krogan, etc.). But if Shepard is a charismatic leader, then shouldn't there be some stability on the team?

[shepskisaac]

Not sure what you're arguing with the first point. I'm agreeing with you that Miranda and Legion make sense as squaddies.

 

I don't think any cuts are necessary, though I'd be fine with cutting EDI. I liked EDI, but the sexbot thing was terrible. EDI, the sassy ship AI, was much better than EDI, the squadmate.

 

I'll reiterate that I personally thought that for story reasons, having someone who Shepard could count on as being by his/her side throughout all three games was of great importance just due to a matter of plausibility. At some point, almost everyone turned on Shepard or went their separate ways for a long time, which I thought was pretty arbitrary. Shepard and team have the biggest missions going on and everyone knows it. They are of absolute importance. The whole galaxy needs their help. Yet we get things like Liara running off to chase the Shadow Broker. Why? There won't be a Shadow Broker if the Suicide Mission fails. Couldn't she have signed on for that (like, I'm not a huge Liara fan, but I would've loved if she had been in all three games, too)?

 

Not everybody needs to leave the team and sit out for a while so someone else can show up. Obviously, some people have good reasons (VS doesn't trust Shepard, Wrex is leader of the krogan, etc.). But if Shepard is a charismatic leader, then shouldn't there be some stability on the team?

If we don't make cuts then we suddenly end up with 8 squadmates (9 counting DLC Javik). Yes sure, in ideal world it would be 9 or 12 or 18, but they didn't have unlimited time and resources, they had as much as they have. With so many variables from previous 2 games accumulating, there had to be made decisions that prioritizied something over another thing. So why proritize 2 squadmates who already recieved tons of developement and screen-time in previous games and would've had a lot in ME3 regardless over other important characters who had little before?

 

And Joker/Chakwas already fill "stability quota" for those who wanna roll "Sheps that need stability". And if that's not enough, I still absolutely think stability is way less important than providing more screen time and developement to larger number of characters and better utilizing all the effort that went into creating those ME2 squadmates.

 

Also, the stability you're talking about is nothing more than an accident during developement of ME1. Liara, Tali & Garrus just happened to have plot-armors in ME1, that's the only reason they recieved lots of content in ME2. There was never any great plan for "providing Shep some stability". If there was, it was for Joker and Chakwas, not Tali/Liara/Garrus. And allowing Tali/Garrus to die during Suicide Mission only further confirms it. They got in ME3 squad because of popularity, nothing else

[Dunmer of Redoran]

If we don't make cuts then we suddenly end up with 8 squadmates (9 counting DLC Javik). Yes sure, in ideal world it would be 9 or 12 or 18, but they didn't have unlimited time and resources, they had as much as they have. With so many variables from previous 2 games accumulating, there had to be made decisions that prioritizied something over another thing. So why proritize 2 squadmates who already recieved tons of developement and screen-time in previous games and would've had a lot in ME3 regardless over other important characters who had little before?

 

And Joker/Chakwas already fill "stability quota" for those who wanna roll "Sheps that need stability". And if that's not enough, I still absolutely think stability is way less important than providing more screen time and developement to larger number of characters and better utilizing all the effort that went into creating those ME2 squadmates.

 

Also, the stability you're talking about is nothing more than an accident during developement of ME1. Liara, Tali & Garrus just happened to have plot-armors in ME1, that's the only reason they recieved lots of content in ME2. There was never any great plan for "providing Shep some stability". If there was, it was for Joker and Chakwas, not Tali/Liara/Garrus. And allowing Tali/Garrus to die during Suicide Mission only further confirms it. They got in ME3 squad because of popularity, nothing else

 

Joker and Chakwas aren't boots on the ground. Shepard needed teammates to stick around in each game, to go out into the field, to watch their back, not just ancillary characters who sit in their ivory tower and cheer him/her on. That's where Garrus and Tali come in. Them dying in ME2 is irrelevant because everyone can die, even Shepard and Miranda.

 

Garrus' and Tali's popularity played a major role in them being major characters in ME3, but AFAIC, that sweetens the deal. They were exceedingly popular characters who made sense being in each game. Why not include them? Besides, ME3 is the final stretch. Only Wrex has a good reason to sit out being on the team (particularly if you kill him ); the core team reuniting to finish what they started is poetic.

 

Limited resources, eh. I don't agree. They could easily have done a DA:O-style DLC-fest and made a crapton of additional stories and ancillary materials to continually flesh out the game. Shepard & Friends is a cash cow franchise. People would keep buying DLC probably for as long as it was being made.

[Valmar]

Bioware should've known better and just ignore it. And before someone says "what if next time they ignore something you want", we're talking Tali (and Garrus) being squadates for the THIRD time. Way different than, say, someone asking for Aria to be a squadmate.

 

We see how well that approach worked for their artistic vision.

[chidingewe8036]

Bottom line is they should have made all our companions available regardless of the suicide mission, the should have canonized everyone surviving the mission and had dialogue for every companion recorded and if someone chose not to recruit someone or let someone die they just would not be available in the next game period. I just don't think they spent enough time on this game, Bioware can try and mask that fact all they want.

[shepskisaac]

Limited resources, eh. I don't agree.

This is not something you can agree or disagree. It's a simple fact. EA decided the game will release before end of 2011 fiscal year and not a single day later. Cash cow? Maybe. But EA's style has never been to pay greater attention/devote more resources/time to their most profitable franchises. They forced DA2 little over a year after DAO released.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

This is not something you can agree or disagree. It's a simple fact. EA decided the game will release before end of 2011 fiscal year and not a single day later. Cash cow? Maybe. But EA's style has never been to pay greater attention/devote more resources/time to their most profitable franchises. They forced DA2 little over a year after DAO released.

Oh no, it's not a matter of releasing a bigger game, but continually making content to flesh the game out and make it larger and more inclusive over time.

[Iakus]

Bottom line is they should have made all our companions available regardless of the suicide mission, the should have canonized everyone surviving the mission and had dialogue for every companion recorded and if someone chose not to recruit someone or let someone die they just would not be available in the next game period. I just don't think they spent enough time on this game, Bioware can try and mask that fact all they want.

Could you imagine the word budget that would have required in adding ten more recruitable squad members?

 

Everyone would have been like Ashley, Locked in their rooms with nothing to say but "Good to see you"

 

This is pretty much the entire reason why Bioware was out of thier minds in introducing ten new companions, all of whom could be killed off in ME2.  And why they were destined to be cameos in ME3.

[Arcling]

Time constraints were obvious, also too many variables. As much as I liked the final mission of ME2, having possibility of any character dying meant that their role had to be reduced, so in case of their deaths you can have some stand-in characters without changing plot too much. The only one who avoided this fate was Garrus, as he was available early in the game (Tali counts less, as she joins the team quite late). Smilar can be said about Ashley/Kaidan, their roles were practically mirrored, even when each of them should have acted differently, considering their personalities. Anyway, out of the whole trilogy, ME3 had the least choices available when it comes to squad.

[Han Shot First]

 

This is pretty much the entire reason why Bioware was out of thier minds in introducing ten new companions, all of whom could be killed off in ME2.  And why they were destined to be cameos in ME3.

 

So much this.

 

I love some of the companion characters from Mass Effect 2, but sidelining your cast from the first game to introduce an entirely new set of companions, each of whom could be killed, created problems that  Mass Effect 3 was never going to solve. There was way too many companion characters to account for adequately, particularly when you factor in that any character who could be an LI needs two different sets of dialogue in some scenes. Come ME3 the devs were always going to be faced with tough choices about which characters to put on the team and which characters would end up with cameos and much less content.

 

If ME:Next is the start of a duology or trilogy and not just a standalone, the cast of companions should remain the largely the same throughout however many games are in that series. You could maybe have a casualty or two along the way, and introduce a new companion with each chapter, but the original cast should remain largely intact and on the team throughout. And if you have a suicide mission where everyone and anyone can die, you save it for the finale of the final chapter in that series.