421 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

The idea of Tali as a submissive who rarely/never challenges the player on anything is dead wrong. In ME2 and ME3, she will challenge Shepard on any pro-Geth decisions that come at the expense of the Quarians. This isn't like DAO with an approval system, so any substantial amount of challenges is well above the norm; the only teammates who may challenge Shepard more substantially are Jack and Wrex.

 

Legion, Mordin, the VS...they all challenge Shepard much more than Tali. Mordin tries to cure the Genophage even if you are against it. Ashley and Kaidan have the Cerberus thing. Legion dies trying to stop Shepard from dooming the Geth to extinction. Tali on the other hand doesn't even try to stop the upload if Shepard sides with the geth. You can treat her like crap and she obviously "always loved you". I am not saying she is the only offender here, but she's certainly not better than the other LIs.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Legion, Mordin, the VS...they all challenge Shepard much more than Tali. Mordin tries to cure the Genophage even if you are against it. Ashley and Kaidan have the Cerberus thing. Legion dies trying to stop Shepard from dooming the Geth to extinction. Tali on the other hand doesn't even try to stop the upload if Shepard sides with the geth. You can treat her like crap and she obviously "always loved you". I am not saying she is the only offender here, but she's certainly not better than the other LIs.

Legion isn't really combative, though. It may disagree on things, but ultimately doesn't challenge Shepard consistently, like Tali does.

This may sound lulzy, but I don't think the VS counts, because they get mad no matter what you do.

I can give you Mordin though. He can be very agreeable or downright hostile depending on what you do.

[Pasquale1234]

Here's the thing about Tali as an Admiral, or leader of any kind:

1. She doesn't want to be a leader.
2. She's a terrible leader, and knows it.
3. Her people don't really care about points 1 and 2.

After ME1, Tali ends up getting conscripted by the Admiralty Board by virtue of being a folk heroine and gets all sorts of terrible assignments that she is unfit to do, and has to carry the burden of all of it "for her people." Which she feels obligated to do, but happily moves away from. She doesn't deserve or want the positions, and gets them mainly due to her symbolic importance and the fleet's nepotism. I think that's one of the BEST things about her. Those are very pronounced, very obvious flaws, and stay in play throughout the series.

Well, that and the fact that she has seen a lot of combat, particularly versus geth, first-hand while under the leadership of a very successful and victorious Commander Shepard. She might actually have more live combat experience than some of the other Admirals.

In her defense, she did successfully complete the assigned objectives in both of the in-game missions she led. Most of the casualties in Freedom's Progress were the result of the troops' refusal to follow her orders and work with Shepard's team - and really, those losses may have been avoided if Shepard hadn't shown up.

Haestrom served a couple of character points very well - Shepard gets the rescue, Tali suffers the loss of most of her team on the mission and feels defeated.

[Epyon]

Thing is, they had a perfect excuse to make Tali Admiral in place since ME1. The entire admiralty board has to resign when overrulling a decision made by the Conclave. And in ME3 the Admiralty board had just made the very unpopular decision to go to all out war against the Geth.

If Captain Tali'Zorah, in addition to 4 other captains was made Admiral, that would be much more understandable. But I guess they didn't want to invent so many more Quarians in addition to the Admiral already introduced in ME2.

Also more on topic. I gotta say that, sure the ME2 team generally has good reasons to not rejoin Shepard. But so does Ashley/Kaiden.

The second human Spectre can either go missions for Hackett personally, or drop everything to become another person on Shepard's fireteam and thus not make the tiniest bit of use of his/her near unique status.

[MrFob]

Thing is, they had a perfect excuse to make Tali Admiral in place since ME1. The entire admiralty board has to resign when overrulling a decision made by the Conclave. And in ME3 the Admiralty board had just made the very unpopular decision to go to all out war against the Geth.

If Captain Tali'Zorah, in addition to 4 other captains was made Admiral, that would be much more understandable. But I guess they didn't want to invent so many more Quarians in addition to the Admiral already introduced in ME2.

 

I don't think that would have been more believable. IIRC, the admiralty board can only override the conclave if they are unanimously voting to do so. Do you really think Zaal'Koris would have voted against the conclave to go to war? I would have questioned that. The way it is, it looks like he bowed to public opinion but he was definitely not in favor of the war. That's definitely more in lone with his ME2 character.

 

Otherwise, I think you are correct, why throw away a bunch of already established characters (all voiced by rather popular VAs at that) when there was already a set-up in place to make Tali an admiral? After all, they already the vacant spot left by her father.

[Abedsbrother]

The second human Spectre can either go missions for Hackett personally, or drop everything to become another person on Shepard's fireteam and thus not make the tiniest bit of use of his/her near unique status.

 

It is Udina who pressures Kaidan / Ashley to accept Spectre status. Despite Shepard's good relationship with Hackett, Spectres follow the "guidance" of the Citadel Council. I see the Kaidan / Ashley Spectre status as Udina acquiring a personal attack-dog (especially if it is Ashley, who was even in ME3 notably pro-human). This is demonstrated in the confrontation that takes place in Priority: Citadel II.

 

After Priority: Citadel II, with Udina out of the picture, the reason for Kaidan / Ashley's Spectre status is removed, allowing them to join Shepard's team. And though not explored, I think Kaidan / Ashley are even a little ashamed that they were so easily used (allowing the offer of Spectre status to go to their head) - making them even more willing to join Shepard's team and hide in the anonymity provided by Shepard's struggle / failure / success.

[wolfhowwl]

Well, that and the fact that she has seen a lot of combat, particularly versus geth, first-hand while under the leadership of a very successful and victorious Commander Shepard. She might actually have more live combat experience than some of the other Admirals.

In her defense, she did successfully complete the assigned objectives in both of the in-game missions she led. Most of the casualties in Freedom's Progress were the result of the troops' refusal to follow her orders and work with Shepard's team - and really, those losses may have been avoided if Shepard hadn't shown up.

Haestrom served a couple of character points very well - Shepard gets the rescue, Tali suffers the loss of most of her team on the mission and feels defeated.

 

Her combat experience consisted of exchanging gunfire with Geth from behind crates. An Admiral commands a fleet in naval combat.

 

As far excuses go, troops refusing to follow orders isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of their commander's leadership skills.

[Mordokai]

Her combat experience consisted of exchanging gunfire with Geth from behind crates. An Admiral commands a fleet in naval combat.

 

As far excuses go, troops refusing to follow orders isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of their commander's leadership skills.

 

Neither is coming home with most of your team in bodybags, if we're at it.

[BioWareM0d13]

I'm not a fan of Star Wars style promotions in general. Promotions should have some rhyme & reason to them, and far too often in Mass Effect they don't. Characters shouldn't just jump from low or mid-ranking personnel to senior officers. To compare it to a corporation, Tali's jump would be the equivalent of someone going from a low level manager to a position on the board of directors in a flash. 

 

Ashley suffers from a similar problem. She jumps from Staff NCO to the equivalent of a Field Grade Officer overnight. That might not seem like a big deal to people unfamiliar with military service, but for veterans or military history buffs the reaction to that is most likely going to be, "Wait...what?!" It strains suspension of disbelief. It should take Ashley years to reach Lieutenant Commander, and if she received a field commission between games that promotion should have been to 2nd Lieutenant. 

 

Hopefully in ME:Next aspects of the lore dealing with military organizations will show a bit more attention to detail, and have just enough realistic detail to be believable. 

[Epyon]

It is Udina who pressures Kaidan / Ashley to accept Spectre status. Despite Shepard's good relationship with Hackett, Spectres follow the "guidance" of the Citadel Council. I see the Kaidan / Ashley Spectre status as Udina acquiring a personal attack-dog (especially if it is Ashley, who was even in ME3 notably pro-human). This is demonstrated in the confrontation that takes place in Priority: Citadel II.
 
After Priority: Citadel II, with Udina out of the picture, the reason for Kaidan / Ashley's Spectre status is removed, allowing them to join Shepard's team. And though not explored, I think Kaidan / Ashley are even a little ashamed that they were so easily used (allowing the offer of Spectre status to go to their head) - making them even more willing to join Shepard's team and hide in the anonymity provided by Shepard's struggle / failure / success.

How they got the gig doesn't matter, he/she is still a fullfledged Spectre of equal or in Kaiden's case, higher rank then Shepard in every way after Udina is gotten rid off and Admiral Hackett has requested their assistance. Instead they do nothing with it.

[Abedsbrother]

How they got the gig doesn't matter, he/she is still a fullfledged Spectre of equal or in Kaiden's case, higher rank then Shepard in every way after Udina is gotten rid off and Admiral Hackett has requested their assistance. Instead they do nothing with it.

 

And it is my contention that "how they got the gig" does matter, and is the reason why they do nothing with their Spectre status. 

[Iakus]

 

Ashley suffers from a similar problem. She jumps from Staff NCO to the equivalent of a Field Grade Officer overnight. That might not seem like a big deal to people unfamiliar with military service, but for veterans or military history buffs the reaction to that is most likely going to be, "Wait...what?!" It strains suspension of disbelief. It should take Ashley years to reach Lieutenant Commander, and if she received a field commission between games that promotion should have been to 2nd Lieutenant. 

 

I recall when we were getting early details of ME3, Ashley was still a Lieutenant, and people were scratching their heads going "Well...maybe that makes sense, kinda?"    then we find out she's an LC and there was a lot of collective facepalming.

[BioWareM0d13]

I recall when we were getting early details of ME3, Ashley was still a Lieutenant, and people were scratching their heads going "Well...maybe that makes sense, kinda?"    then we find out she's an LC and there was a lot of collective facepalming.

 

That's odd. I mean they had it right the first time.  I'd have preferred that Ashley remain enlisted, just because there is a lack of named enlisted characters in the series, or became a Warrant Officer instead...but a field commission to 2nd Lieutenant is still believable. 

[Pasquale1234]

Neither is coming home with most of your team in bodybags, if we're at it.

Her combat experience consisted of exchanging gunfire with Geth from behind crates. An Admiral commands a fleet in naval combat.

As far excuses go, troops refusing to follow orders isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of their commander's leadership skills.

Yes, the writers did a pretty thorough job of making her ineffective. They did the same thing with the meteoric rise of the VS.

[God]

I'm not a fan of Star Wars style promotions in general. Promotions should have some rhyme & reason to them, and far too often in Mass Effect they don't. Characters shouldn't just jump from low or mid-ranking personnel to senior officers. To compare it to a corporation, Tali's jump would be the equivalent of someone going from a low level manager to a position on the board of directors in a flash. 

 

Ashley suffers from a similar problem. She jumps from Staff NCO to the equivalent of a Field Grade Officer overnight. That might not seem like a big deal to people unfamiliar with military service, but for veterans or military history buffs the reaction to that is most likely going to be, "Wait...what?!" It strains suspension of disbelief. It should take Ashley years to reach Lieutenant Commander, and if she received a field commission between games that promotion should have been to 2nd Lieutenant. 

 

Hopefully in ME:Next aspects of the lore dealing with military organizations will show a bit more attention to detail, and have just enough realistic detail to be believable. 

 

Lets not insult Star Wars style promotions here. They're a lot different than what we get in Mass Effect. A lot of those characters actually had to work for their rank.

[God]

Legion isn't really combative, though. It may disagree on things, but ultimately doesn't challenge Shepard consistently, like Tali does.

This may sound lulzy, but I don't think the VS counts, because they get mad no matter what you do.

I can give you Mordin though. He can be very agreeable or downright hostile depending on what you do.

 

Legion tries to kill you if you side with the Quarians. Tali doesn't challenge Shepard, period. Even when he's saying 'your people are dying, deal.' The most she does is pout and look sad, then jump off a cliff.

[Epyon]

Lets not insult Star Wars style promotions here. They're a lot different than what we get in Mass Effect. A lot of those characters actually had to work for their rank.

Han and Lando were made General as soon as they signed up for the Alliance. That was at the time when the Alliance was already a big battlefleet with doubtlessly a ton of senior officers. Jaina Solo went from Lieutenant to Colonel in NJO in a single war.

[justafan]

Her combat experience consisted of exchanging gunfire with Geth from behind crates. An Admiral commands a fleet in naval combat.

 

As far excuses go, troops refusing to follow orders isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of their commander's leadership skills.

 

 

Neither is coming home with most of your team in bodybags, if we're at it.

See, this is why I think that leaders in the Mass Effect Universe all attended the Zapp Brannigan School of Military Tactics. Tali loses most/entire squad? lets make her an Admiral.  Zaeed is known for constantly losing everyone partnered with him?  Let's put him on a squad with some VIPs.  Shepard loses his entire squad to Thresher Maw ambush? let's make him a Spectre.  Shepard throws all his men into the meat grinder to kill a few Batarians on Torfan, let's also make him a Spectre.  Garrus gets his entire squad ambushed and killed?  Let's make him higher ranked than a general.

 

Apparently the fastest track to promotion is to get everyone else killed.

[Kynare]

See, this is why I think that leaders in the Mass Effect Universe all attended the Zapp Brannigan School of Military Tactics. Tali loses most/entire squad? lets make her an Admiral.  Zaeed is known for constantly losing everyone partnered with him?  Let's put him on a squad with some VIPs.  Shepard loses his entire squad to Thresher Maw ambush? let's make him a Spectre.  Shepard throws all his men into the meat grinder to kill a few Batarians on Torfan, let's also make him a Spectre.  Garrus gets his entire squad ambushed and killed?  Let's make him higher ranked than a general.

 

Apparently the fastest track to promotion is to get everyone else killed.

 

And the N7 program... "There's not a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed either themselves or their soldiers at some point." Now we know what needs to be done. 

[The Arbiter]

And the N7 program... "There's not a single N7 that hasn't sacrificed either themselves or their soldiers at some point." Now we know what needs to be done. 

Kill everyone? KROGAN IS HAPPY.

[God]

Han and Lando were made General as soon as they signed up for the Alliance. That was at the time when the Alliance was already a big battlefleet with doubtlessly a ton of senior officers. Jaina Solo went from Lieutenant to Colonel in NJO in a single war.

 

Not entirely true. As well, you're using 3 semi-exceptions (that I'm going to argue in defense of) rather than the rule.

 

Han was considered a smuggler Captain who had assisted the Rebellion numerous times before Yavin IV, and by the Battle of Hoth, was still considered an independent contractor. By Endor and his return, he was given the role of a General due to his volunteering to lead a ground strike team on the moon to take out the shield.

 

Lando was also an experienced smuggler leader bringing several elements loyal to him into the fight, and its referenced at the briefing prior to the operation. Even Lando is surprised. And to be truthful, the Rebellion was hurting for experienced commanders. Hoth did a number on their chain of command, as well as their ground force.

 

Also, the Vong War was nearly 5 years long. And it took its toll. Jaina was promoted partly out of merit and skill, and partly because the people above her in rank tended to get killed, leaving her in many times the highest ranking person left in whatever squadron she was flying with, and with it getting harder and harder to replace higher ranking pilots, they had to turn to her (especially when you had a young, talented Jedi Knight who was a better pilot than most others who had a tendency to survive even suicidal odds, and had thus accrued an extensive record against the Vong).

[Quarian Master Race]

Legion tries to kill you if you side with the Quarians. Tali doesn't challenge Shepard, period. Even when he's saying 'your people are dying, deal.' The most she does is pout and look sad, then jump off a cliff.

both responses are stupid and out of character. In Legion's case, it is an absurd emotional response not at all characteristic of its established rational demeanor. It should have been able to look at the situation, and realize that it is not going to be able to do a thing to save its people with Shep, Tali and the 3rd squaddie there once the decision is made. Maybe if you bring EDI (due to her sympathies) it could trigger a unique scene, but in most contexts it makes no sense, and given Shep's special snowflake status Legion would also knowingly and irrationally be dooming the galaxy essentially out of spite. Legion doesn't even disagree with you throughout ME2 when you consistently imply that synthetics are a lesser form of life and all geth are the same. It merely explains its position ingenuously. Now, if the nebulous Reaper magic somehow gave the robots sensory capability that could manifest as human/organic emotions, it would be one thing and explain Legion's overly emotional whiny behavior up to this point in ME3. But by the time it tries its little trick, it no longer has those upgrades. It shouldn't be able to experience emotion. It should either quietly toss you off the cliff or (more logically) accept its fate. Instead, it decides to spout a dramatic one liner and predictably ends up with a hole in its spine/head. In fairness though, Legion's established character had been assassinated into robo-pinnochio pretty much from the moment you meet it on the Dreadnought.

Tali faces the opposite problem. She's fairly well established as an impulsive hothead who will absolutely act on indignant emotion, especially when it comes to the geth. For her, it would make a lot more sense to try something. Becoming An Hero is just absurdly over the top-passive. This is the person who grenaded Fist's thugs and nearly got herself killed instead of handing over data that she didn't even really have much of a vested interest in at that point. Or who shoots at Legion before even asking questions if you bring the former on her recruitment mission, and later threatens to shoot it again when it tries to pilfer information from her. You could make a personal argument for her not attacking Shep if you didn't rat out her father, but she has no reason to not try and deactivate the roomba that is trying to murder what is in cultural/emotional terms her entire family, especially in the case of it being Geth VI. Hell, she has no qualms about putting the knife in even if she personally dislikes Shepard for destroying her father yet considers Legion a friend, so why should she hesitate in the opposing situation? While we're on the subject of alternate characters, Raan's response makes even less sense. She should have absolutely no problem with attacking you or the robot.

I think the writing of the reactions of both outcomes were driven more by the moralistic nonsense they attempt to force down your throat about the geth being absolutely innocent victims and the quarians arrogant aggressors, and both characters suffer as a result. Legion accepting its fate or silently making its move without you having to deal with the feels of personally gunning it down while it resists and emotionally pleads for its life would have missed an opportunity to attempt to make those who picked the wrong (according to the writers) choice regret it. Simultaneously, being forced to violently end Tali for her merely trying to prevent a genocide would have taken away from validation of your choice as the morally good (read: correct) one. It's particularly telling in the blantant symbolism of the manner in which it was chosen the two characters would die. Legion is stabbed in the back for you figuratively stabbing his people in the back after they trust you. It is your fault that the geth are dead, not that of the quarians. Tali commits suicide, the implication being that the quarians at large essentially did the same through their actions, thus absolving you of any possible guilt for becoming their galactic Hitler.

I don't judge either character for the travesty that the non peace options turned out to be for them, no more than you should judge the supposedly pragmatic Miranda for running around after her irrelevant sister for 3/4 of ME3 while her beloved human race is being turned into Reaper slushie (especially considering the former are optional and the latter isn't). This game is rife with out of character moments and even outright developmental regression.